Review: Melle professions

[knekt]

Now you gotta understand, I'm wanting you guys to get some kind of defense so everyone stops bitching about it. Its getting too outta control

I guess u ment average melee proof. Thank you so mutch m8 for your support, yes it is out of control and is shurely it needs a fix. We are standing on the edge of eighter a huge nerf or a huge change that might help melee.

[sloshmonger]

And for the last matter is that where is no real reason in bringing onehander as an example for fix/eng etc As wepon, besides of using big ip ammounts (in fact is quite as much as meele have to spend - AS + weapon skill) to get any results of it, it does ubery crappy dmg (both AS and regular when compared to other FA guns).

I'm not disagreeing with you that fixers are going outside their "intended" toolset, but engineers do have shotgun support in their group perklines. It goes against most common endgame setups, though.

What you're saying highlights the issues I have with PvP in AO. I like it, it's a lot of fun at times. But in order to take full advantage of it, it's beneficial for nearly all professions to use skills that are unsuited for it. That's why you see keepers, enforcers, and MAs, with 99% of their time in PvM spent using melee skills, using ranged skills in PvP. It's similar with the lesser number of ranged professions that train melee skills -- most notably SA/dimach. Those people who go that extra length to make themselves the best they can be in PvP should be applauded and feared. I doubt this thread is directed at them. They are not representative of the majority of players in game, despite their representation on the forums. This thread is more directed at the people who don't read this forum, who have a decent but not great setup on their characters, and who tried the Battlestations once or twice to get some VP, but then went back to farming LE missions for the VP they might need to get a somewhat "respectable" setup. They just want to play their characters and have fun.

I'm of a similar mindset to them. One of the big things that drew me to AO was the difference between each profession's toolkits and how they demonstrated themselves in PvM. Once I started to PvP I realized that wasn't any longer the case, and I refused to accept that. I want each of my toons to be an individual entity, able to stand distinctly from any other. I want each to be able to play their part in both PvM and PvP. I want to be able to take full advantage of the toolset offered to me, while preserving uniqueness.

For my keeper, that means my weapon will be 2HE, which means I'm limited to melee specials. Keeper nanos support Fast Attack & Sneak Attack and Parry & Riposte as specials. Perk-wise, one SL perk line supports Fast Attack, Parry & Riposte (Street Samauri), we get support through AI perks for Fast Attack (Crusade), and LE research gives support for Fast Attack, Brawl & Dimach (LE Research. Keeper Tier3 armor supports Fast Attack, Sneak Attack, Brawl, Parry & Riposte, while Ofab supports Fast Attack & Sneak Attack. So with Maxed Keeper Specific armor and nanos we get the following benefit:

• 581 Fast Attack
• 145 Sneak Attack
• 135 Brawl
• 65 Dimach
• 340 each Parry & Riposte

Which of these have a place in the current PvP toolset of my keeper? Fast Attack, Brawl, and every so often Dimach. Parry/Riposte are off that list for obvious reasons. But Keepers have the highest Sneak Attack buffs aside from Shades, yet how many 2HE weapons support it? Here's the list. Six different weapons with ql 1-200 entries, half of which are split attack ratings, all of which are older than my nephew (He's 3 years old).

You can talk about Keeper perks if you wish, and how they can get around the 40% cap. With the setup I have I have two perks that can do that: Slice & Dice and Seppuku Slash, if timed right. Seppuku Slash is very precise upon the circumstances that can happen under, though if you're not evading it there's not much difference in how you die, since you're also not evading any of the other faster-executing perks/special attacks. Slice & Dice I usually only see get over the 40% cap on low-hp professions such as NTs, though I cannot feel sorry about that.

Does that mean I think that Keepers are at a disadvantage in PvP versus ranged professions? Of course I do.

We have the disadvantage that our range isn't 40m. We have the disadvantage of not having any sort of crowd control aside from grafts, brawl and 1 perk that checks 140% NR. We have the disadvantage created when absorbs/reflects were changed, at least when you consider the previous power of those. We have the disadvantage of not having profession appropriate weapons that have 40% caps.

Does that mean I think that Keepers are not overpowered lovechildren? Of course I don't.

We have the advantage of high AR, high evade/decent dodge/duck, and a nano line that counters roots/snares. We have the advantage of being nearly unrootable/unsnarable if we desire to train a 10 point perk line. We have absorbs, reflects, and heals both passive and active. And we have the best looking Tier armor in the game, which is the biggest advantage of all.

But that's the thing, it's all a trade-off. We can't have it all at once -- ok, we can look damn good a lot of the time. But it is supposed to be an game of rock/paper/scissors writ large, and that's as true of PvM and PvP. Only the game has lately been encouraging everyone to use Rock to the neglect of Paper and Scissors. That's the one thing that irks me.

Yet despite that, I still have the biggest advantage of all: I'm enjoying myself.

[knekt]

• 581 Fast Attack
• 145 Sneak Attack
• 135 Brawl
• 65 Dimach
• 340 each Parry & Riposte

With the setup I have I have two perks that can do that: Slice & Dice and Seppuku Slash, if timed right.

Forgot Reaver, add 200 2he on ur list. 180 from Reaver and 20 from SS

Edit: typofaliure

[IHaveHugeNick]

Here, have a clue:

Supernova: Aimed shot with a 1 minute recharge that requires funky usage of ip in ways not intended for a _MELEE PROF_, the only reason people do it at all (and it isn't only keepers, just for some reason keepers get all the attention in regards to it) is because it's the only bloody guaranteed hit likely 40% cap we can bloody get.

So it is, whats your point?

Our superior defensive toolset? Cocoon can be oneshotted, devotional armor is uselessly cappable through despite the extra 32% reflect, wow, how superior. Give me a bloody break. At best we are able to buy a little extra time with the 2 extra heal perks we have as opposed to what an enforcer has.

Again, how nerfed are you. You have ONLY cocoon. You have ONLY 32% more reflect. ONLY heal perks. You dont have ANYTHING to defend yourself. I bet you instadie to level 190 nanomage pistol shades.

Look at *every* ranged pvper and I guarantee 9 out of 10 have something with aimed shot or full auto. This is not a one profession statement. Open your eyes. It is practically a requirement if you want to do anything resembling well in a pvp environment. I'll even spell it out for you to save you from having to do any *gasp* research

Agent: Rifle (Aimed shot, Fling optional)
MP: Tigress (Aimed Shot, Fling Shot)
Soldier: Shark (Burst, Full Auto)
Fixer: Ofab/Onehander common multiwield (Full Auto, Fling, Burst, Aimed Shot)
Trader: Ofab (Aimed Shot, Fling Shot)

Are we seeing a pattern yet here buddy? Oh and look, that's FIVE professions right there for starters, *WOW*

Ok i have too agree with you here. You proved beyond any doubt, that range proffesions use range weapons with range specials . Its a true masterpiece of game knowldege. *clap* *clap* *clap*

[lusthorne]

So it is, whats your point?

Again, how nerfed are you. You have ONLY cocoon. You have ONLY 32% more reflect. ONLY heal perks. You dont have ANYTHING to defend yourself. I bet you instadie to level 190 nanomage pistol shades.

Ok i have too agree with you here. You proved beyond any doubt, that range proffesions use range weapons with range specials . Its a true masterpiece of game knowldege. *clap* *clap* *clap*

Way to miss the point. Had you been paying attention you would see that every example is a 40% capping special with a very fast recharge, something melee lacks period. *Wow really bob?* Ya, rly.

You seem very hellbent on trying to paint me as crying total gimp. Pointing out concerns to melee is hardly the same. Guess what genius, I would like something done to balance melee a bit more and maybe keep things ... oh I don't know, FUN?

One thing I do go out of my way to disprove is this fantasy people entertain when it comes to keepers and apparently being gods. And for presenting facts I apparently am trying to say we have no defenses? All I pointed out was that our defenses took a severe hit and are in need of fixing. Oh and *gasp* that includes ... dare I say it... OTHER melee profs! Get over yourself and your righteous indignation.

Yes you certainly provide constructive feedback with such quality statements such as "I bet you instadie to level 190 nanomage pistol shades." Brilliant. Hell, that's top notch, I so desperately bow to your obviously superior knowledge of the world and how everything is perfectly balanced and everyone should just smile and be content.

[IHaveHugeNick]

Way to miss the point. Had you been paying attention you would see that every example is a 40% capping special with a very fast recharge, something melee lacks period. .

There is no such thing as " always 40% capping special". And funny you forgot to mention SnD that BYPASSES 40% rule.

You seem very hellbent on trying to paint me as crying total gimp. Pointing out concerns to melee is hardly the same. Guess what genius, I would like something done to balance melee a bit more and maybe keep things ... oh I don't know, FUN?

One thing I do go out of my way to disprove is this fantasy people entertain when it comes to keepers and apparently being gods. And for presenting facts I apparently am trying to say we have no defenses? All I pointed out was that our defenses took a severe hit and are in need of fixing. Oh and *gasp* that includes ... dare I say it... OTHER melee profs! Get over yourself and your righteous indignation.

Yes you certainly provide constructive feedback with such quality statements such as "I bet you instadie to level 190 nanomage pistol shades." Brilliant. Hell, that's top notch, I so desperately bow to your obviously superior knowledge of the world and how everything is perfectly balanced and everyone should just smile and be content.

Lalalalala KEEPERS NEED TMS. KEEPERS NEED ACROBAT. KEEPERS NEED CH. KEEPERS NEED TO BE KILLED BY A RAIDFORCE AGAIN. ITS NOT FUN CAUSE I SOMETIMES DIE.

[Mekh]

Lalalalala KEEPERS NEED TMS. KEEPERS NEED ACROBAT. KEEPERS NEED CH. KEEPERS NEED TO BE KILLED BY A RAIDFORCE AGAIN. ITS NOT FUN CAUSE I SOMETIMES DIE.

I'm really starting to understand why I've seen several people with you on their ignore list...

[Izolenta]

I'm really starting to understand why I've seen several people with you on their ignore list...

welcome to the club

[Gwenhwyfer]

Join the fanclub Mekh

[Luiza]

leme share how the Enforcer defensive tool set suffered in the past years.

Most of the Profesions out there has an unique toolkit, and the defensive ones can vary from heals,blockers,absorbs,reflects,evades and so on.

To look closer to the defensive toolkit of the Enforcer will see nothing unique Rather than:
High Hp (The profesion that can have HUGEEEEEEEE HP!)
High NR (Sense of Freedom because of Rage Nano Lines!)
Damage Shields (Everyone is geting hurt for atacking a spiky thingy! yes we had shields that once used to hurt you!)
Absorbs (Very usefull pre-le patch 17.1)

Nerfs were always made and enfs always sufered and tried to adapt, damage shields were nerfed because it ruined the low level twinks pvp.
(so TL7 enfs can't damage anyone for 500ish+ of damage/reflect shield)

That was not a big deal, we adapted and did not realy care we lost one of our unique defence "damage shields" ...damaging others for hurting us!

We still had High HP! and Absorbs! ...atleast we thought

Shadowlands and Alien Invasion were fun... we had fun in pvp... we loved the role of strong fighters and pvp-ers

than Lost Eden came and was soon to be named Lost Enforcer, because the (17.1 patch) killed most of us and made alot more quit the game.

They adjusted Absorbs and the way they work, enforcers could no longer feel safe while they had Cocoon runnin! we died faster! alot damn faster!

but we thought our High Hp could save us! but things changed so much, everyone got more damage, more AR, and could score huge capped specials on us. they hurt! and we felt weak...

So there we have it, our unique defence toolkit is very very very weak compated to heals/evades/blockers/etc.

We simply can't adapt...because we don't have anything left, damage shields are weak, cocoon acts like a 1 special absorb shield(similar to engi), high hp became the oposite of what it was pre-sl, pre-ai, pre-le

These are just pvp facts, the pvm issues are that we were left behind with aggro love, everyone got more damage while some of our aggro nanos stayed the same, so holding aggro became a greater challenge!, we agree that AI/LE made everyone stronger and stuff...but it cripled our role as tanks and seems enforcers are not needed excepts for large raids such as The Beast and APF.

Save the Enforcers!!
They need Serious Love pointed to Defensive ToolKit, something unique.... just like you created one for traders/mp/nt

[Harios]

I'm really starting to understand why I've seen several people with you on their ignore list...

Yep.. some people are born for the ignore list

[Lunaspell]

Here, have a clue:

Our superior defensive toolset? Cocoon can be oneshotted, devotional armor is uselessly cappable through despite the extra 32% reflect, wow, how superior. Give me a bloody break. At best we are able to buy a little extra time with the 2 extra heal perks we have as opposed to what an enforcer has.

if u don't need that anymore, can I have it?

[NoGoal]

There is no such thing as " always 40% capping special".

AS does if you don't use a crit reliant weapon but one with decent max dmg.

And funny you forgot to mention SnD that BYPASSES 40% rule.

Get more HP? NT Triple also does 3 hits in a row and AS/FA can do more than 40% if you have any layer on you. And they all refresh in 11 sec or less...

[Neon_1]

The problem in this case is the scenario, that ranged users see this problem as a whine of all melee claiming to be too gimp to kill lvl 180 toons at 220. And melee users tend to see that since they cant properly hit at BS, that they should get something adjusted to make them more viable now. Im leaving individual professions out of this statement, since mostly all will start representing toolsets and pro´s and con´s from their own proff, not trough the melee profession in general.

What i have experienced in BS, is that i die a lot. I am not really a good pvp:er, and i dont have that uber gear either, so thats just serves me right until i can be better. As being MA, i still have good pvp potential and i believe if i play well enough i can actually kill something myself too. I do not really get upset from getting killed by AS or FA or SA, the game mechanics itself is somewhat borked to be too much Alpha Online, but that is a title for another thread. The problem in pvp at BS tends to be like mentioned :: As melee proff, the thing that fills my screen mostly is "You can not use this attack since your opponent is too far away...". I see the enemy at 1-2m from me, but still i cant hit specials, i cant hit even normal hits, i cant use all perks either. I can just guess where the enemy might be and run like headless chicken. Then i see him warp to 20m to some direction, i run there and same thing happens. This wastes most times 10 seconds or more, and i havent got even single hit in (or even tried to hit target). So many times i dont have even a fair chance to try to kill anything except in mech or turret or using AS. And that is the thing ppl are trying to say here i think.

I do not whine about rooting/specials/blinds/drains or anything else that cripples me. They are part of this game. And ranged should have the edge on the range to melee. Thats cool too. I dont mind dying 10 times in a row. But when i mostly die to the fact that i have to guess where my opponent is since game cant update fast enough, that really saddens me and encourages me to only use AS and run or then roll ranged proff. The problem itself here isnt the ranged proffs themselves. Its the crappy, laggy and buggy game that seems to be never fixed. Hopefully FC really puts effort on getting things better, or many melee proffs leave or roll ranged toons to do some pvp fun. And the main question here is, that if it cant be fixed, should melee proffs get something to adjust to it better ? Tough, imo, if this problem has to be solved to give melee professions some utilities instead of fixing the server/game problem, we are going to the wrong direction allready. Please try to fixx this asap.

[Lukesays]

AS does if you don't use a crit reliant weapon but one with decent max dmg.

And if you use a gun that caps 40% because of max dmg....guess what... it doesn't have that fast recharge you all keep bringing up. Even if you are talking slow recharge, supernova occasionally doesn't cap. There is no 40% 11 sec special, unless you are an agent. New MP bow comes pretty close, they need it anyway.

Hey also guess what! The only prof with fast fa is sol (and ranged adv, which are an internet myth scopes told me). And it happens the best sol AS gun has half the max dmg of the best bow/rifle. There is no prof with fast 2x40% special.

And for the record, yes the server sync issues suck and hopefully fc at least finds some way around them. Maybe make it so you can hit anyone who is in range from the perspective of either side's client. Needs some fix though.

[NoGoal]

There is no prof with fast 2x40% special.

Never said that and when you have 2x40% specials, you don't really care about a fast recharge as your target face instant death.

[Lukesays]

Never said that and when you have 2x40% specials, you don't really care about a fast recharge as your target face instant death.

Ok so nerf total concentration and you are fine. And if you aren't worried about recharge, why don't perks count?

Edit: and for that matter, why not dimach/sa as well?

[Camar]

The problem in this case is the scenario, that ranged users see this problem as a whine of all melee claiming to be too gimp to kill lvl 180 toons at 220. And melee users tend to see that since they cant properly hit at BS, that they should get something adjusted to make them more viable now. Im leaving individual professions out of this statement, since mostly all will start representing toolsets and pro´s and con´s from their own proff, not trough the melee profession in general.

What i have experienced in BS, is that i die a lot. I am not really a good pvp:er, and i dont have that uber gear either, so thats just serves me right until i can be better. As being MA, i still have good pvp potential and i believe if i play well enough i can actually kill something myself too. I do not really get upset from getting killed by AS or FA or SA, the game mechanics itself is somewhat borked to be too much Alpha Online, but that is a title for another thread. The problem in pvp at BS tends to be like mentioned :: As melee proff, the thing that fills my screen mostly is "You can not use this attack since your opponent is too far away...". I see the enemy at 1-2m from me, but still i cant hit specials, i cant hit even normal hits, i cant use all perks either. I can just guess where the enemy might be and run like headless chicken. Then i see him warp to 20m to some direction, i run there and same thing happens. This wastes most times 10 seconds or more, and i havent got even single hit in (or even tried to hit target). So many times i dont have even a fair chance to try to kill anything except in mech or turret or using AS. And that is the thing ppl are trying to say here i think.

I do not whine about rooting/specials/blinds/drains or anything else that cripples me. They are part of this game. And ranged should have the edge on the range to melee. Thats cool too. I dont mind dying 10 times in a row. But when i mostly die to the fact that i have to guess where my opponent is since game cant update fast enough, that really saddens me and encourages me to only use AS and run or then roll ranged proff. The problem itself here isnt the ranged proffs themselves. Its the crappy, laggy and buggy game that seems to be never fixed. Hopefully FC really puts effort on getting things better, or many melee proffs leave or roll ranged toons to do some pvp fun. And the main question here is, that if it cant be fixed, should melee proffs get something to adjust to it better ? Tough, imo, if this problem has to be solved to give melee professions some utilities instead of fixing the server/game problem, we are going to the wrong direction allready. Please try to fixx this asap.

Great post, the root of all evil for melee profs is the server sync problem.
Our power lies in the far superior perks and higher normal hits, and when you can't use those due to the buggy distance to your foe, you are screwed, plain and simple.

Of course everyone is exaggerating for more dramatic effect, cocoon can get one-shotted, you can get capped through AMS, but for sure it won't be the case 100% of the time. Everyone sees their part of the story, you have evaders stating that evades don't work anymore, you have high AR profs stating they can't hit anyone.

Only fact is that all defenses got nerfed big time (some more than others, and if it is the only defense you have like in the case of Enfos, you will need some help), the days of people tanking 4 or more, kill some and live are over, and there are some profs you simply have a very low chance of winning against. It seems like this is what FC intended, personally I must say I like it more than before since there is a bit more equality between the profs. It is still far from balance though, some profs got shafted pretty roughly, and while dieing fast doesn't matter so much on BS, it pretty much kills towers.

The biggest problem is the server sync, this has to be remedied or at least improved, after that I would adjust the damage cap from 40% to at least 30%, if not 25%. No more one hit kills from triple, melee profs would have it easier actually reaching the target, and the general dieing fast would be a bit lessened, alpha online would be reduced, since you will now need at least 3 if not 4 capping attacks to actually alpha someone.
There were plenty of healing debuffs introduced into 17.1/2, so I don't think this would overpower the healing professions.

[NoGoal]

And if you aren't worried about recharge, why don't perks count?

Because I can't choose between 1 min recharge perks which do capped hits and 11 sec recharge perks which might not cap but cap most of the time.

Edit: and for that matter, why not dimach/sa as well?

Dimach is 30 mins recharge for most profs, can't compare that to 1 min. SA is weaker than AS even if it was capped at 11 secs.

[Rktim]

Great post, the root of all evil for melee profs is the server sync problem.
Our power lies in the far superior perks and higher normal hits, and when you can't use those due to the buggy distance to your foe, you are screwed, plain and simple.

Of course everyone is exaggerating for more dramatic effect, cocoon can get one-shotted, you can get capped through AMS, but for sure it won't be the case 100% of the time. Everyone sees their part of the story, you have evaders stating that evades don't work anymore, you have high AR profs stating they can't hit anyone.

Only fact is that all defenses got nerfed big time (some more than others, and if it is the only defense you have like in the case of Enfos, you will need some help), the days of people tanking 4 or more, kill some and live are over, and there are some profs you simply have a very low chance of winning against. It seems like this is what FC intended, personally I must say I like it more than before since there is a bit more equality between the profs. It is still far from balance though, some profs got shafted pretty roughly, and while dieing fast doesn't matter so much on BS, it pretty much kills towers.

The biggest problem is the server sync, this has to be remedied or at least improved, after that I would adjust the damage cap from 40% to at least 30%, if not 25%. No more one hit kills from triple, melee profs would have it easier actually reaching the target, and the general dieing fast would be a bit lessened, alpha online would be reduced, since you will now need at least 3 if not 4 capping attacks to actually alpha someone.
There were plenty of healing debuffs introduced into 17.1/2, so I don't think this would overpower the healing professions.

Yeah i totaly agree... I have to say that i love seeing keepers everywhere whining about how gimped they are now.. But if you go to the keeper foorums you can find a whole bunch of posts from keepers saying that there still can PvP and be good at it:
"I just ignore the ranged profs (i.e. fixers/soldiers unless I'm in a team), pop defences as they're needed. Alpha any enfo's and bad adv's, and MP's and NT's, low docs, shades that I can perk, etc I see, pop coon, cap points while /disco and 3 people are trying to kill me. With gsf/rrfe unless they can successfully keep me rooted/snared I can do a great job of surviving. And ofc, run away if the alpha fails."
- Mar 19th 2007

And yes... 30% Caps in PvP would help ALOT for EVERYONE.. for starters i bet we would see afew of the more stupid equips go away...

All tho fixing server sync would not help enfos and shades more then alittle *shrugs*


Btw aint it annoying when you post and your post becomes the last post on a page and someone else posts right after and no one even sees your post? -.-`