The Neutral Council...

[__________Neuromncer]

Greetings one and all.

Many of you know me, and many others of you know of me. To those of you that don't, my name is Neuromncr, an Opifex Adventurer who has been around Rubi-Ka all her life, and until recently has been a member of the Independant Rubi-Ka.

Now, don't get me wrong, for I will always have much love for the guild that brought me in, supplied me, cared for me, and trained me. But the respect for this guild, and the others in the Neutral Coalition, has now ended. ICC has come to town, in more ways then one. And they are extatic about it.

Has anyone else noticed the recent influx of illegal weapons showing up? Or have you just been to happy to find them to think about where they are coming from? Given that Omni-Tek I am sure is not shipping in weapons which they consider illegal, that leaves very few options on where they are coming from. Who else but Omni has regular supply ships coming in? ICC, with regular supply and troop ships coming in almost daily, and now with even more frequency.

Why should us neutrals be concerned about this? Well, for one, most of these weapons are the kind that you use to kill other humans, not the various creatures found on the planet. What is one indication that a war is about to start? The stockpile of arms. How long is it before one of these sealed weapon containers contains tactical weapons, bio weapons, or worse?

I am hoping that there are other neutrals out there that see ICC coming to RubiKa as a threat, not a savior. Before this, us Neutrals were seen as a small, if rather harmless, non problem. Now, as the ICC comes to town, with the blessing of the Neutral Coalition, I am sure, we may not seem like such a harmless pest. Unfortunatly, the neutral pup has grown up, and now has a bite.
We can no longer be ignored.

How long is it before Omni decides to wipe out a few 100 neutral citizens, blaming it on the Clans to sway the ICC, or the Clans doing the same thing, trying to get the ICC to impose sanctions on OT? This does not bode well for any faction.

As a neutral, who has no desire to be used as a pawn, I hearby ask that they Neutral Coalition disband, and return to your homes, as all you can do is cause much further grief to those of us who want no part in your quasi-politica. As indiviuals, we had anononimity. Now, with you banding yourselves together to 'further the neutral cause', and ICC coming to Rubi ka with you welcoming them with open arms, we no longer have that luxury. You are making us a threat, not only to Omni-Tek, but to the Clans as well. Stop now before you cause more harm, as a short sighted blessing WILL turn out to be a long term curse.

Neuromncr
Neutral Opifex Adventurer 105

[Jujuwalker]

I submitted the proposal that we send an emissary to the ICC. The issue has noty been voted on yet. In fact, the NLF and several other people expressed concern over ICC's true intentions...It is in discussion and on the order of business of next meeting.


'As to disband the neutral coalition... WHY??? You know it's hard to get us neutral organised into ANYTHING..... the system is working, we have discussion, we have regular meetings....Why disband man?

-Jujuwalker.

[__________Neuromncer]

Originally posted by Mister_unknown
'As to disband the neutral coalition... WHY??? You know it's hard to get us neutral organised into ANYTHING..... the system is working, we have discussion, we have regular meetings....Why disband man?

-Jujuwalker.

Why disband the Neutral Coalition? For many reasons...
The first and foremost being that because of your actions, we already are being branded 'In the pocket' of the ICC. Yes, because of your actions, the neutrals are getting organized. This you see as a great thing... short sighted on your part. The only reason that we have been left alone by both the Clans and Omni is the fact that we were a disbanded bunch of individuals. Now ALL neutrals are being seen as a group, and where there are numbers, there is a threat. Ross's remark about us would not have come, had we remained behind the scenes, small groups of individuals who had no political agenda. Now, with the rise of the Neutral Coalition and political agenda of thier leaders (which, I might add, I don't trust at all... why the recent relationship with the leader of IR, Nyadach, and Igniz, who has caused more problems to more people than I care to recount), the neutrals are no longer ignored.
The second being that this coalition is considered speaking for all neutrals, those in guilds, those that are not, those in the coalition and those that are not. I perfer to tie my own hangmans knot, not have someone else (or someones, as the case may be) do it for me. Alot of us neutrals are neutral to avoid the political arena at all costs, and live in the land that is ours without fear of reprisal due to something that a 'leader' does. The coalition is trying to be a leader that we don't want. Your actions are affecting those of us that would much perfer to be judged on our own personal merits, not those of whose 'side' we are on.

[charleyd]

Hmm...

This reminds me of a quote, though I do not remember who originated it:

"There is nothing in the middle of the road. Except for a yellow line and a bunch of dead armadillos."

[Spiritdancer]

I for one feel that the ICC comming to town is a very bad idea. The vote was proposed to ask the ICC to send peace keeping troops to Nl and other Neutral areas, but was never taken. It was due to be at the comming meeting. I would have voted against it and I know of at least one council member who would have too. However had the meetings vote gone for the ICC comming in, I would not have had a fit about it. I would have said some cautionary words and then left it at that. As it is no one got any choice in the matter, for or against. And that saddens me. Democracy is a dying art, and I do belive it is an art, which we can restore to its rightful place. The clans dont have it. The Corperations certainly dont have it. So why should we not have it?

You may run your business at the wrong time to go to the meetings? (OOC: be in a bad time zone. I am, but I was there) Make the effort! If you dont make the effort then dont complain! I cant stand people who say, "But I didn't vote for it?". why? because they did not MAKE THE EFFORT! If you want to dispand the coalition then go to the Neutral Boards and Propose it! If a vote is passed then It will have to go! But dont stand around saying I dont want it, when you dont take part. If you dont take part dont complain. Oh and as for the ICC bit as stated by my self loads of times NO ONE GOT A CHOICE. And for me thats what gets my back up. Not the vote or lack of now. The lack of CHOICE. I did not chose the ICC! Another bunch of money grabber's here to exploit.

You may not think your intrested? History shows us many examples of bad leadership because of lake of intrest. Take the late 20th, early 21st centry Govenments of the United Kingdom (now headquarters to United Energy (OOC: OK so I made this bit up but what the hell))

The oranisation sould stay. Organising people is hard, I would say that organising Neutrals is like hearding Cats.
If we dont group together this time Omli will come into to town and kill 100's or the clans or both. Divided we are weak.
If you want to get walked over thats fine with me, but do everyone who dont a favour, Quit whineing, Get involved or Join Omli-Tek or the Clans where you still get walked on you just can't have a say!


Blackpagan
NT
NLF

[Jujuwalker]

Originally posted by Neuromncer

The first and foremost being that because of your actions, we already are being branded 'In the pocket' of the ICC.

The only reason that we have been left alone by both the Clans and Omni is the fact that we were a disbanded bunch of individuals. Now ALL neutrals are being seen as a group, and where there are numbers, there is a threat. Ross's remark about us would not have come, had we remained behind the scenes, small groups of individuals who had no political agenda.

Now, with the rise of the Neutral Coalition and political agenda of thier leaders (which, I might add, I don't trust at all... why the recent relationship with the leader of IR, Nyadach, and Igniz, who has caused more problems to more people than I care to recount), the neutrals are no longer ignored.

The second being that this coalition is considered speaking for all neutrals, those in guilds, those that are not, those in the coalition and those that are not.

- This has not been voted on, AGAIN. Until there is official vote, there is only rumor and speculations. Go on rypht's forum and post dammit. We need your point of view.

- Oh bull~@#!. Ross is playing the laywer's game here and the only reason we are interesting for them is because we are conveniently close to clan controlled areas. The fact that we are asking for several small things ( IC and OCC) has nothing to do with it. Everyone will cite concern for the neutrals when it's gonna help with their points.

- Ignis is not trusted, i personally warned everyone in the neutral community against diamondcut & co. And the reason there is several guilds including an unafiliated is EXACTLY to make sure a DIVERSE point of view / vote in the coalition. We have from "peace loving hippies" to religious fanatics to mercenary companies (quoted from dreammate). Yet everyone works together for the common good.
- The coalition is exactly that: a coalition. Member guilds ( aka guilds of the executive) Have agreed to follow the coalition's votes as per the principle. The rest of the unafiliated neutrals are as free as they wish. Unafiliated can also talk with catalyste, she's OFFICIALLY appointed as their representative.

We thought about this man. We really did. Imagine how hard it was to actually get everyone to agree to this on the FIRST meeting? Goddamn.....you really weren't there to see this.

-Jujuwalker.
p.s. POST IN THE NEUTRAL BOARD ABOUT THIS.

[Cyani]

Whining?
I see Neuromancer's coment as a voice of reason and concern...
I have read logs of teh Coalitions discussions and it seems many have agendas that may not be good for neutrals....

Discussions regarding PVP and such changing rules of engagement and first shot capability... Some supporting these changes have not even been neutral that long..

Many neutrals in the past have asked not to be targets by default and therefore seen as friendly.. Being neutral in a conflict such as the one occurring here on our planet is not supposed to be easy.. Many of neutrals have struggled through being "Fair Game" and it has strengthened them and made the communty what it is... or should I say was... Strong individuals with their common bond being to remain independent an not supporting either side... It seems now that though they have their heart in the right place.. their motives and agendas seem to be clouding the overall good that such a calaboration could truly achieve...

You call us whiners cause we do not agree with what is or isnt being accomplished.. And state to show up and participte or vote if we want to see changes.. I hope you are aware of your ignorance and the structure which lies within the Coalition.. The power to Vote and mke Changes lies within the Executive Branch of the coalition.. That Branch has One yes One person represnting the unaffiliated or guilds not on the Executive Branch of the Coalition... Though she is a fine representitive and my admiration and tust in her is unquestionable... She is but one person amounst 8 others.... 8 other that are Guilded and have their own agendas... Regardless of the % of the population these guilds may represent it is the leaders of these guilds that mke decisions and many times without the ful support of their guilds but for their own beliefs...

I dont call for the Coalition to disband... I think it is a good start has potential... I however do not, and this is my opinion I do not speak for all Neutrals, agree with the topics and proposals being addressed in the name of neutrals on Rubi-Ka.. Am I a whiner because I disagree? No I am here to voice my opinions and make others aware just as neuromancer has... That is Acting.. that is part of seeing something that concerns you that you wish to change and be addressed.. It is not Whining.. It is having a Voice and contributing...

I applaud Neuromancer for making her statements.. many Neutrals find themselves sitting back and letting others shape their world without "'whining" ans stating their concerns..


And before you or anyone else states that I am no longer Neutral.. What right do I have to make these statements?
Even as Clan now.. I m more Neutral than some of you claim to be.. I have been part of many things in the Neutral community and will continue to do so.. Not everyone sees eye to eye regarding neutrality and what it means to yourself or others.. That is part of being Neutral.. I take offense to the attitude directed at Neuromancer as she is very in touch with her community and obviously cares enough to address her concerns in an open forum.. Perhaps you should join Clan or Omni and you seem to want to divide neutrals with your comments rather than compromise and see that maybe Neuro has valid points to be made..

**sighs**
Ive said so much and in th eyes of people such as yourself I have said nothing at all.......





edited for spelling..

[Jujuwalker]

cyani sugar.... when did you switch? What happened?

[__________Neuromncer]

Originally posted by Mister_unknown


- This has not been voted on, AGAIN. Until there is official vote, there is only rumor and speculations. Go on rypht's forum and post dammit. We need your point of view.

Tell that to the victims of the upcoming slaughter. Just a rumor...

And I will continue to post on a secured Grid Feed, at least then I know the words I type will be the words that others read.

- Oh bull~@#!. Ross is playing the laywer's game here and the only reason we are interesting for them is because we are conveniently close to clan controlled areas. The fact that we are asking for several small things ( IC and OCC) has nothing to do with it. Everyone will cite concern for the neutrals when it's gonna help with their points.

I disagree. Ross had no interest in the neutrals untill they banded into this coalition, and then he saw a group, organized, that could tip the favor of this 'war' onto the side that controlled them. And trust me, it is much harder to control 100 ants when they are scattered, then 100 ants that are grouped together.

- Ignis is not trusted, i personally warned everyone in the neutral community against diamondcut & co. And the reason there is several guilds including an unafiliated is EXACTLY to make sure a DIVERSE point of view / vote in the coalition. We have from "peace loving hippies" to religious fanatics to mercenary companies (quoted from dreammate). Yet everyone works together for the common good.

The damage has been done.

- The coalition is exactly that: a coalition. Member guilds ( aka guilds of the executive) Have agreed to follow the coalition's votes as per the principle. The rest of the unafiliated neutrals are as free as they wish. Unafiliated can also talk with catalyste, she's OFFICIALLY appointed as their representative.

Guilds of the executive... that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, I can tell you that. Officially? Does that mean that your precious Coalition decided that, or did you go talk to the 40 some odd unaffiliated neutrals and ask them? I though so...*spits*

We thought about this man. We really did. Imagine how hard it was to actually get everyone to agree to this on the FIRST meeting? Goddamn.....you really weren't there to see this.

-Jujuwalker.

Man? You call me 'man' one more time, and I will make sure that you are not! Mark my words, 'The formation of a visible coalition of neutrals will lead to all our dooms'

Baenre,
Since when does being Neutral involve having others make my decisions for me? In my 16 years of being on this planet, I have always thought for myself. Now, I am being told that a 'coalition' has been made to do that for me? What am I saying, I am talking to someone that is grouped with people that belive that the Nano bread should wipe out all the other breeds as they are exploiting the planet. For a second there I thought that I could carry on a intelligent conversation with you. *laughs*

Cyani,
Thank you for your kind words. The Clans gained more than they can ever imagine with you joining with them. As to what you said, I only disagree with one thing, that being that the Coalition must be disbanded. Once again, if others 'see' the neutrals as a cohesive group, then we are lost. It is only our indepence and seperated ways that have gotten us to today.

Neuromncr
Opifex Adventurer 105

[Spiritdancer]

I said to post on the Neutral Boards and bring it up as an issue. If you want the Coalition disbanded post it, and if this is the democratic body that the leaders wish to promote it as, then it should be debated and voted on! All I was saying is that you need to involved first to get it voted on.

If this is put on an agenda or is debated enough to put on an agenda to be voted on, and it is not, I will be first to Complain strongly. That is how democacy works, that is if anyone can remember what democacy is! So what kind of support were you after? My agreement with everything said? what kind debate is that? I put posts up and get little or no support, but I state my point of view. Oh and for the record Cyani, other than the Council Disbandment I agreed with Most of the rest Neuromncer said. So I gave no support did I? OK.

Blackpagan

[Spiritdancer]

Well I thought I could carry one on with you?

Guess I wrong too!

My own veiws of slavery are mine, but if you want to try your luck in a battle of wits.

Second thought I won't have a battle of wits with an unarmed Person.

Its not fair!

Blackpagan

[__________Neuromncer]

I repeat, I will not post on a unsecured Grid Feed. I know all to well the ways that a fixer can change posts on those. All my posts will continue to be on this secured Feed.

As to the remarks about the intelligent conversation, I was a might bit riled up, and I appologize. The cause of the NLF is not my concern, and calling you unintelligent because of your beliefs was wrong. As to your comment, I go nowhere unarmed

[Spiritdancer]

Neuromncer your appolgy is accepted and I will withdraw my remarks in my previous post. I was hitting back at you and I am sorry.

I feel that democrocy is the way to go before it is too late.

It is a shame that you feel you cant post on the other forum, for just as I feel that all views should be heared, even those I disagree with, the modification of posts made would anger me further.

I hope to be able to continue our debate here if you wish.

Blackpagan

[Praecautus]

"Guilds of the executive... that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, I can tell you that. Officially? Does that mean that your precious Coalition decided that, or did you go talk to the 40 some odd unaffiliated neutrals and ask them? I though so...*spits* "

actually yes there were some 20 odd people at the first meeting where the two 'arms' were decided on. by a majority vote.

gosh how i wish now i hadnt spent approching 3 days in Borealis and Newland harbouring opinion, gaining support, asking peoples advice. wish i hadnt bothered now.

[______________Martov]

The ICC is coming, council or not.

The ICC doesn't care about council anyways--and that assumes that the ICC even knows what the coucil is. The only concern that the ICC has at the moment is preventing further violence against neutrals and the ongoing confict. The violence hasn't and won't stop unless a miracle occurs, so I don't see how demanding the destruction of a council that has little effect on the violence will stop the ICC from sending peacekeepers. I would say that having the council will aid the situation because telling the ICC that we can deal with our own problems makes the peacekeepers' purpose void.

This, of course, demands that to what extent 'dealing with our own problems' can go. My suggestion is that we form municipal governments in each neutral town. That way both independance and security could be achieved. I'll go into this in more detail whenever I get around to posting on those "unsecured Grid Feeds."

Oh, and about those "unsecured Grid Feeds?" Horse****. Read it once, twice and thrice. Horse****. Because if you're not able to talk about it, that's what you're full of.

[__________Neuromncer]

Originally posted by Martov
The ICC is coming, council or not.

The ICC doesn't care about council anyways--and that assumes that the ICC even knows what the coucil is. The only concern that the ICC has at the moment is preventing further violence against neutrals and the ongoing confict. The violence hasn't and won't stop unless a miracle occurs, so I don't see how demanding the destruction of a council that has little effect on the violence will stop the ICC from sending peacekeepers. I would say that having the council will aid the situation because telling the ICC that we can deal with our own problems makes the peacekeepers' purpose void.

Obviously you did not read what I have written. I don't have a problem with the ICC coming. What I have a problem with is a council that has it's own agenda in mind, and is causing Ross and others to notice the neutrals. Get a highly visible group together, with a political agenda, and what once was at most an annoying pest is now a hive of killer bees, that is my problem. Most of us were happy with not being on the radar, but now due to this coalition, all the neutral population is under the crosshairs.

This, of course, demands that to what extent 'dealing with our own problems' can go. My suggestion is that we form municipal governments in each neutral town. That way both independance and security could be achieved. I'll go into this in more detail whenever I get around to posting on those "unsecured Grid Feeds."

Oh, and about those "unsecured Grid Feeds?" Horse****. Read it once, twice and thrice. Horse****. Because if you're not able to talk about it, that's what you're full of.

What you are talking about is making the Neutrals a side, which I am sure that SOL and ICC would love. It would give them the needed handhold into Rubi-Ka that they were looking for. And you fools are giving it to them!

Speak how you may, but all rightful citizens of Rubi-Ka have access to this feed, and I know it is hacker proof. As to me not talking about it? What the hell are you talking about? What is it I am doing? If you feel the need, link this post to your feed, but I will continue to only post here.

[__________Neuromncer]

Originally posted by Dr Tiny
gosh how i wish now i hadnt spent approching 3 days in Borealis and Newland harbouring opinion, gaining support, asking peoples advice. wish i hadnt bothered now.

Why is that Dr. Tiny? You know that I have always respected you, even though we have not always seen eye to eye (and no, it's not because you tower over little ol' me!) I can only hope that you too have become disillusioned with the Coalition, and realize what the forming of it does to us.

[______________Martov]

What, are you trying to piss me off? Your little--and little IS the proper word for you--"you did not read what I had written" comment was a cheap excuse to sidestep what I wrote. This time, I'll do it in cutesy-wutsy point form so I don't overtax your thick atrox skull.

1) The neutrals are considered to be Omni-Tek employees according to the ICC. Philip Ross decides to use this as an opportunity to clean up Omni-Tek's reputation and to expand. Note the fact that the neutral coalition had nothing to do with this happening. If you belive otherwise, read his little chat again. Nowhere does he talk about meetings with the neutral council, nor is it refered to at all.

2) The ICC, after some 'encouragement' from Sol Corporation decides to come on down to the big happy Rubi-Ka ranch, contradicting their earlier statement on the neutrals.

3) The neutral council is (probably) in favor of sending an emissary to the ICC. Note that as of this time, the ICC has little knowledge of the neutral coalition.

4) Neuromncer claims there will be a big war here because the neutral council (who have been in a massive PR campaign as of late, or not) will suddenly rip off their masks and turn out to the Sol Corporation board of directors. Neutrals get their brains washed then shrunk and go off to fight both clanners and Omniserfs where they are promptly slaughtered.

5) Number four turns out to be BS because there is no PR campaign, and saying 'Sol Corporation' around the NLF guys is a good way to get killed. Furthermore, the council being a democratic group is currently split on the ICC issue.

LEFTOVERS (BUT THEY STILL TASTE VERY GOOD. SO YOU'D BETTER EAT THEM OR IT'S NO DESERT!):

-Your argument that we should be lying low is patently foolish. Neutral cities at the moment are ripe for the picking, more disorganization makes them only jucier to an egotistical Clan or OT. While I am opposed to having a large all-powerful government (like Omni-Admin or the Council of Truth) I don't see how having a defence force is going to hand us over to OT or the Clans when their purpose is to do the opposite.

-Municipal government is a long way from a full-fleged faction. What I meant was something along the lines of a Mayor plus defence and trade chairmen for each town. I happen to follow municipal politics where I live, and I can assure you, they are never, ever going to turn into some fearsome dictatorship. More often than not, they squabble.

-If you think a democracy should represent every single person, then you too are living in a dream world. A democracy is meant to represent the majority.

"You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you." --Leon Trotsky

[Spiritdancer]

Ok before this starts getting out of hand, lets take a step back.

This started out as a politcal debate and is quickly changing into a slagging match (I'm as guilty so i'm not pointing at anyone).

Lets look at where we are: (correct me If I am wrong)

Neuromncer - you dont like the ICC comming but are less bothered about that then the fromation of the council.

Me - I am unhappy with the ICC comming and would rather they didn't. I would like to keep the council. As long as its democratic.


Martov - Not 100% sure about the ICC and your entire view but will go out on a limb and say you dont want it. Would like to keep the council. Democratic man also.

Dr Tiny - One of the leaders of the Council No idea you views on the ICC? Feels let down by parts of the debate, as he put a lot of work into the set up of the council.

Cyani - ICC another pass on that issue so I dont know. Thinks the council is a good start.

Jujuwalker - One of the leaders of the council. A stong supporter of asking the ICC to come the the Neutal cities. Does not want to see the council disbanded.

Now if I have it wrong tell me. I think I missed one person but it was a small post with a qote. Sorry CharleyD i get the point of the quote but as for you views well?

Right take a deep breath. Lets keep this with less of the insults and the swearing. Relax................................

Ding Ding seconds away round 2

Blackpagan
NT
NLF

(OOC: remeber folks its only a game)

edit for my rubbish spelling

[Jujuwalker]

Originally posted by Baenre
Jujuwalker - One of the leaders of the council. A stong supporter of asking the ICC to come the the Neutal cities. Does not want to see the council disbanded.

naaaahhhhh i'm no leader. I'm too polically incorrect for that!!! Lol. I am president of the assembly, while a seemingly big title, means i get to do all of the $#$#@! jobs around because everyone else just won't do them otherwise. (posting announcements, making up the order of business based off discussions, getting the place set up, getting people to enter, getting people to stay in order...man i need some helpers :s )

I swear to god , it's bad enough sometimes i feel that if I took a break, there would be no meeting......


And yes I am replacable. But will someone do the job i do ???
You find that person, he/she stays fair and i hand him/her my macros happily.

Tired of getting *****ed at for no friiking reason.