don't remove the "breaking mezz bug"

[______________Danjaq]

Originally posted by Xira

That is EXACTLY the solution DAOC has currently implemented.

Mezes last for mabey 30 sec, stuns last for mabey 5 sec. afterward you are immune for 1 min.

Crowd control still UTTERLY DOMINATES that game.

I never said anything about putting stuns in AO. I know that stuns suck in DoaC and I don't think they should be used here.

Originally posted by Xira
So you'd have the advantage for the first minuet of the fight...What you fail to realize is that the first minuet is all that COUNTS.

Hell most battles are decided in the first 30 seconds. 10 seconds.

Of course I realize that the first minute is crucial. But I also think that Crats should be crucial - Just as crucial as a doc... if not more. A team that chooses to incorporate support members such as Crats should have an advantage over a team that chooses straight up offense. PLUS, pvp mezzes should be breakable by the mezzee's teammates.

Oh, and if you're beating teams in 10 seconds, you need to fight harder teams.

Originally posted by Xira
2 even teams meet up. One of the crats gets off a mez, suddenly the other team can do nothing for 30 seconds. The first team then fling/burst/FA's the doctors to death in seconds, not haveing to worry about protecting their own doctors or themselves or even debuffing the doctors on the other side.

So now you have a team with a slight numbers advantage and doctors faceing a team with less people and no doctors or healers or mezers of anykind.

Can you predict where the fight will go from there? I can...It's spelled R-A-P-E.

EXACTLY. A team with a doc is better than a team without a doc. So why shouldn't a team with a doc AND a crat be better than a team without a crat? Support members are SUPPOSED to make teams function, work, and kill much better. Otherwise, they are wasted space and the team is better served by adding another offensive player.

Plus, there are a couple of things wrong with your scenario. 1) You say two even teams.... they are not even if one is more balanced than the other by including support members. 2) You are assuming that a crat can mez an entire team immediately. Without a mass pvp mez (which no one has even brought up), this is impossible. It would easily take between 20-30 seconds for a GOOD crat to mez that many people - and that's assuming no resists. In that time, as you said earlier, any number of things could happen - including the crat getting killed.


"Oh my God... Crats are all of a sudden important now... something's wrong!"

[______________Danjaq]

And another thing:

If you don't agree with a 30 second mez... then suggest a 15 second mez. If that doesn't work for you, then suggest they open up fear. If you don't want fears used, then suggest that Crat nanos work as debuffs. If not that, then somthing else.

The point is, the specifics don't really matter. I'd just like to see 3/4 of my nanos do SOMETHING in pvp. It's funny how people who play other professions don't see this as a problem and don't care: They got theirs, so screw everyone else.

Well, I paid the same amount as everyone else for this game, I pay the same monthly fee, and I'll probably even be dumb enough to buy the booster pack (dumb becaue it's geared for pvp). I would therefore like to be relevant - not a waste of space.

Sure, I could reroll... but that is a piss-poor solution to class balancing. I have never played characters that were bogged down in big armor and wielded lethal guns. For some reason, I enjoy defense.

[Razzitazz]

Pfft, this is a silly thread. Crats do more than just calm. You have nukes and a bot and roots and snares.

Its not hard to make a crat good at pvp. If you suck at pvp right now, a calm won't help.

[Razzitazz]

I love when people say crowd control is bad.

Perfect example.

Me - 157 NT atm, goes to the arena. Sitting there is a 170 something enforcer who challenges me to a duel.

Hes not worried about my roots because "usually" his rage can break it.

Too bad, a mix of roots/elect./LDI rips him apart. I get a /tell

"Thats such bull****, fight like a man".

Ahem, so am I supposed to, as a nanomage NT with low HP and evades, stand toe to toe with a Atrox Enforcer?

[______________Danjaq]

Originally posted by Piercingevil
Pfft, this is a silly thread. Crats do more than just calm. You have nukes and a bot and roots and snares.

Its not hard to make a crat good at pvp. If you suck at pvp right now, a calm won't help.

This sounds a lot like what I said earlier: I got mine, so screw the rest of you.

I am not alone in saying that crats aren't worth jack in pvp. This may be a big reason why we are the least populated profession. The way I see it, there is a MAJOR class balancing problem when I cannot use most of my skills in pvp. Do you really not see that as a problem??

I'm not asking to be able to kill other people and be "uber." Personally, I could care less about getting a pvp kill. I just want to do what crats were meant to do.

It's really not silly to ask for class balancing. It is the root of all interactions with other professions and dictates who our characters are and how we play the game.

[Cambist]

I'd be fine with the solutions in the article Soloing and Teaming (the conclusions) by Gaute Godager - Game Director:

• Increase the range of the crowd control nanos.
• To make "runspeed-debuffs" ("snares") less prone to break. They will then be used as a type of "getaway" crowd control, which was the way they were intended.
• To make Psychoses (or "mezz") nanos stop giving monsters the ability to "shout" for help. If you run a "sleep" or "coma" type nano on a monster, it will send its shout for help out to its friends. That is a bug. So even if the monster is standing in the middle of a room with others, "sleeping" it will mean the other monsters ignore their comrade's plummet into insanity.
• Sleep or Mezz nanos will also include a PvP component. They will be attack-speed debuffs, mimicking the effect they have on monsters. Remember, these nanos are one-hit-100%-break always. Also, they will not stop people moving around or fleeing.

[________________Xira]

Originally posted by Danjaq
I never said anything about putting stuns in AO. I know that stuns suck in DoaC and I don't think they should be used here.

Stuns? did I say stuns? NO. I said crowd control. All crowd control. Stuns AND mezes.
There is no fundemental diffrence between a stun and a mez, both let one side **** the other.

It becomes a game where whoever presses their magic "I win" button first wins. This game's already been there, it sucked, so they added 50% damage cap. Lets not go there againe.

Of course I realize that the first minute is crucial. But I also think that Crats should be crucial - Just as crucial as a doc... if not more.

See here's the problem, you don't want one man one vote. You want your race to get 3 votes per man.

Docs and Advents at high level ARE important, but with skill and coordination they can be made ineffective. This usually involves 2 alpha's from soldiers = dead doc.

What skill and stragety could you use if you got mezed? Dua....you are mezzed. Nothing you can do but die. Shaddup and wait your turn to die.

You aren't asking for mez to do something in PVP, you are asking for a goddam full group "I win" button. I think mabey you don't realize this.

A team that chooses to incorporate support members such as Crats should have an advantage over a team that chooses straight up offense. PLUS, pvp mezzes should be breakable by the mezzee's teammates.

It dosen't matter if they are friendly-side breakable. They have that in DAOC too.

So the side that got mezed first spend it's first 20 seconds unmezzing teammates instead of attacking the enemy, same result...that side loses.

Allowing one person to nullify the effects of multiple people is a bad idea irregardless of the time it lasts because any time is too long a period of time.

Yes, AOE root is a bad idea. Yes, CH is a bad idea.

Oh, and if you're beating teams in 10 seconds, you need to fight harder teams.

I didn't say beat team in 10 seconds.

I said battle DECIDED in 10 seconds.

It dosen't matter if it takes them 10 seconds or 10 minuets to kill your whole team, if they get your key playes in the first 10 seconds it's all over for your team.

Go back to the scenrio I laid out before, mezer unstealthes, flashes his I-WIN button at the enemy, then his side proceeds to use their CHS to wipe out the other side's healers. Afterward you all target and take 2 more people down(10 guys targeting 1 guy can wipe the floor with that one guy)

Sure you didn't kill them all in 10 seconds, you probaly only killed 3-4 of them, but the effect on the group is much worse as now instead of an even battle you have a gang of people with twice the numbers of the other side and healers, where the other side has no healers and no soldiers left.

The first team would get R A P E D by a 2nd team with any kind of coordination and a mezzing crat.

EXACTLY. A team with a doc is better than a team without a doc. So why shouldn't a team with a doc AND a crat be better than a team without a crat? Support members are SUPPOSED to make teams function, work, and kill much better. Otherwise, they are wasted space and the team is better served by adding another offensive player.

A doc isn't an "I WIN" class, there are tactics and stragties to nullify them.

A Crat with this weapon would be an "I WIN" class.

Plus, there are a couple of things wrong with your scenario. 1) You say two even teams.... they are not even if one is more balanced than the other by including support members.

No, they are perfectly even at the begining. One side just presses their I win button first. They do that and the other side can't press it's I win button.

One side say has 6 docs and 3 crats, other side has 1 doc and 1 crat. You think that's a fair fight? I tell you it dosen't matter what the teams are made of. Whichever team's crat gets their mez off first is the team that wins. Nothing else matters.

I.E. you run up and mez them before they mez you, now they can't mez and you kill their mezers and their docs.

[/QUOTE]blabla-crats can't team mez in my scenrio! wha!
[/QUOTE]

So? Crats don't NEED to team mez. A single target mez effectivly takes that target out of the fight for as long as matters. It boils down to a 1 shot 1 kill button that only crats would get.

You want to know what NT's pay for takeing a charecter out of a fight for 3 seconds? A 9 second recharge. That's right, 9 second recharge.

You want to take a single target out of the game for 20 seconds? Be prepared for a 1 minuet recharge.

Still shouldn't go in, curse of chronos was like that....It was ganked by the devs after 2 DAYS.

There should be no instant win button in this game. PERIOD.

[________________Xira]

Originally posted by Danjaq


This sounds a lot like what I said earlier: I got mine, so screw the rest of you.

I am not alone in saying that crats aren't worth jack in pvp. This may be a big reason why we are the least populated profession. The way I see it, there is a MAJOR class balancing problem when I cannot use most of my skills in pvp. Do you really not see that as a problem??

I think you just suck in PVP.

Most crats rock, they have 3 pets(and can charm other's pets) nukes better than an NT's and they can use guns better than an NT to boot.

I want them to add a nano. Name- "Gag skilless whiner". How's that for a PVP nano?

[______________Danjaq]

Originally posted by Xira


I think you just suck in PVP.

Most crats rock, they have 3 pets(and can charm other's pets) nukes better than an NT's and they can use guns better than an NT to boot.

I want them to add a nano. Name- "Gag skilless whiner". How's that for a PVP nano?

LOL - Your post here illustrates the very problem I've been talking about: as it is now, crats are NOT support members in pvp groups. Your idea of crats that rock are those that dish out a lot of damage with pets, nukes, and guns. Every single description of what a Crat is, official and unofficial, states that crats are supposedly "masters of crowd control." I want to be what I signed up for. Furthermore, regarding your three pets statement, you know as well as I do that it is rare when there are charmable mobs around that can help in a pvp fight and that it is not practical for crats to drag around two charmed mobs for this purpose. This is especially true when the party is not expecting a fight.

Finally, "suck in PVP," "Gag skilless (sic) whiner?"

Please. I never once resorted to name-calling about you. I'm trying to address what I see as a serious problem with my class and am making what I believe to be reasonable suggestions. Feel free to comment on these ideas or even critique them, but name calling just makes you look desperate. There's no reason to get mad at me just because the things I'm saying make sense.

I'll debunk your other post later... it's late and I'm tired.

[Razzitazz]

The only thing that I keep hearing about is the mezz. Traders and NT's have mezz too.

Since when is a crats mezz their primary skill that they should be "known" for?

[Razzitazz]

And sorry for the double post, but what level are you Dan?

[Andross]

Yeah, too bad that Crats dont have any primary skills that they are known for - at least in PvP.
I support those who want to make Crat crowd control be useful in PvP to some degree. At the moment i feel like a gimped soldier without TMS and with a weaker gun.

[Zamolcrat]

Originally posted by Xira


Most crats rock, they have 3 pets(and can charm other's pets) nukes better than an NT's and they can use guns better than an NT to boot.

Hmm, about weapons crats have the same skill costs and caps for ranged weapons as NTs (compared them myself) the only benefit is that crats can choose between a speech that adds +100 to attack rating or +7% crit which is pretty good indeed.

But please don't say crat nukes are better than NT nukes. I have a 100+ crat and NT and I know for a fact, NTs of my level nuke for about double what my crat can nuke. The main reason is that crat nukes need PM/MC, two skills that use the same implants so the crat will never be able to use as high nukes as the NT. To make it clear, for example if you can put ql 200 implants you'll get an increase of +210 in MC for NT, while the crat will be able to get only about +105 PM and +105 MC (actually you might get higher PM - the faded clusters might not conflict, but it doesn't matter because the lower MC will limit your nukes ; MC is raised only 4 per level for crats).

Now I don't want to say that NTs are fine, their problem is that after they can use Izgy's enveloping flame (Kiltz was self casting it at about 160ish I think, if I recall right from last grouping with him) they will use the same nuke till 200 as nothing does better damage over time, while crats will still be able to upgrade their nukes. NTs need more nukes that do better damage over time after Izgy's enveloping flame so that they have a reason to pump more the MC.

Even using the best crat nuke, Rule of One, the NT will do significantly more damage: 468 dps compared with only 352 dps for crats. I know there are some older posts that try to prove the other way around but they are flawed because they don't use 1200 as nano init (which is enough to insta cast both nukes). 1200 nano init is standard for higher level NTs and crats.

Ok, I don't mean that NTs are better than crats or the other way around, I just wanted to correct that old misinformation about the nuke damage.

And about 3 pets, lol !
I wished I had 2 pets. In fact for the past few levels I don't have any pet as the pathing is so fubared that they just slow me so I don't even cast my droid till boss room. From level 80+ I don't think I could ever charm a pet in a team mission because they are too high level.

Blah, I don't like, it starts to be like a whine. Crats are great solo; I can solo 60% boss missions (that's the limit where I can still charm , anything above and I can't) while my NT has problems soloing some 0% bosses (runs out of nano too fast, especially on enforcer ones). So solo I think crats are indeed better, I can solo higher things than my NT, but pets and charms are useless in teams. That's the same problem with the other pet professions, we do great outside and solo well, but many of our skills don't work in team missions.

[Razzitazz]

Was self casting IEF at 143.. And the real trouble is that after LDI, you're right.. no reason for MC at all.. there is a huge gap there.. IN addition, Kels, LW and LN are so crap (ok Kels and LN might be decent) that no one wants to even try to self cast them. Right now, with a mochams i can cast every nano nuke alone. and everyone outside of the big 3 by myself..

No fun