Neutrals are in trouble!

[Praecautus]

/me has visions of crying omni tek scientists releasing their 'retired' charges into the wilds whilst the theme from Born Free plays

[Centurion3]

yes poor scientists that has to release their loved pets and projects.

[_________Crazynotion]

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for people who get gobbled by sandworms. You know they're out in the desert, so don't go there.

Omni-Tek are not 'responsible' for making their ecosystem child-friendly. An ecosystem doesn't normally come with safety handrails or signs on the sandworms teeth saying 'caution. sharp.'

An ecosystem has one objective: it has to be self-sustaining. Omni-Tek figured that one out real quick, which is most likely why all the human-based species after atrox have genders.

Are the mutants viable? I don't know - I haven't looked at their privates. If not, then they're obviosuly being constantly introduced into the ecosystem. But are they actually damaging the ecosystem? I see no evicence in 'mutant territory' of ecological damage. I'd say that leets - given their number and reports by OT that they are indeed a pest - are more of an environmental risk than mutants are.

As for sandworms, lifebleeders and other 'monsters' who is to say that they have a bad lot? Sandworms may well be entirely reasonable organisms - just because they happen to look monstrous doesn't make them 'unnatural', and lifebleeders may have a great time hanging out with other lifebleeders when there aren't any players around to torture and kill.

You cannot apply the human experimentation label to them and say 'horrible' when the whole point of the exercise was to create a viable species for life on Rubi-Ka. We got the homo nano as our final result there (yes, nice to think that the lifebleeder was an earlier version of your friend the metaphysicist, isn't it?) but what would have been crueler? To let the original communities of not-quite-so-successful human-modifications live out their lives in peace, or to round them all up and shoot them.

To sum up: everything on rubi-ka is unnatural because rubi-ka's natural state is lifeless. Omni-Tek are not being irresponsible with the ecosystem for a very simple reason: it is still a work in progress. Not every species is going to remain viable, and every species introduced is going to change the ecosystem. Eventually it'll achieve self-sustainability and balance. That's what ecosystems tend towards. In the meantime, just get used to the flora and fauna there is. If some of it is scary and has teeth, then avoid it.

If it makes you feel better, you can imagine that there is a sign somewhere that reads 'Caution - parts of this ecosystem may be dangerous.'

And if you're really concerned about the ecology, then start an anti-leet campaign.

[addendum: wow - we are WAAAY off topic! I'd say that the ecosystem is about as vital to neutral rights and 'upcoming trouble' as the contents of my trouserpockets]

[Bionitrous]

Pretty sure Atrox have a 'gender'. Just look at the 'package'. My guess it that they are sterile. Just like when you breed a horse and a donkey you get a mule that can't reproduce.

At least that's the way I play my 'trox. Sure can please the ladies. But shootin' blanks all his life. Kinda sad not to create any progeny.

Odds are that only male sperm or DNA fragments survive the culturing process to become viable humans. Just can reproduce.

Then again they never said that Opis or Nanos can reproduce either. They could just be viable in both sexes coming out of the test tube.

My guess is that they wanted to create a true 'freak' for the Atrox but somewhere couldn't deal with a biomodel that couldn't be adapted to the existing armor skins and weapon models and so stepped back to a large scale more human model.

[Centurion3]

Unity of the rose are smelly hippies

[Jynne]

Bionitrous asked OOCly for what reasons there were to oppose Omni Tek (and thus be non-neutral) that were better than 'tragic orphan story #37465 - OT killed my parents' roomate! They are evil and must be destroyed!'

I replied OOCly that irresponsible experimentation and poor environmental stewardship were more reasonable causes to oppose OT. Bio and I got into a pretty good ethics debate about legal vs moral ownership and the responsibility borne by owner, creator, or parent to their property, product, or offspring.

I believe Crazynotion and Centurion3 responded ICly or semi-ICly (correct me if I am wrong, I am too lazy at the end of the workday to check) in defense of OT in various ways, including the assertion that they aren't being irresponsible or taking poor care of the planet.

That's how the thread moved from neutrals and side-choosing, to monsters. I brought in the monsters and mutants as examples of OT's work in support of my position that one good reason to oppose Omni-Tek is that they are neglecting their responsibility to the people living on Rubi-Ka as planetary stewards, regardless of what side those people are on. Another good reason is their irresponsible methods of human experimentation and use of human genetic mutants as weapons or tools. Saying that OT owns Rubi-Ka doesn't exempt them from being responsible for it - quite the opposite, really.

[Bionitrous]

And I just gotta say that threads like this are one thing I'll miss dearly when my posting privelages are finally gone. I don't think I'll get this on the SW: G forums.

I can't imagine some Rebel player discussing the history of the Senate and the rise of Empire and the morality of Order vs. Self-governance.

And Ragnar blows away Lucas when it comes to backstory. He hasn't pulled the morality play yet and I'm thinking he might have a surprise or two for us in store when the 'mysterious stranger' who pulls Roland Drake's strings and whoever supercharged David Marlin's karma are revealed as to both who they are and why they are doing what they are doing.

I think that SW: G going to be a hell of a lot better 'game' than AO and much more immersive 'world'. I've just got concerns for the community.

Back on topic, I guess. Why would any Omni-Tek employee really give a rat's ass about the Clanners as long as they stay out of Omni cities? Your boss signed a peace accord and ceded a bunch of dusty land. Seems Omni has more than enough land to house their people and adequate facilities for expansion until such time as their lease runs out in a couple decades.

Hurt feelings? Perhaps. But, is that noble? I wonder if England has secret plans to take back 'the Colonies'? Don't you eventually have to give it a rest eventually in order to not paint yourself as a fool? (as I perceive a lot of pro-Omni rants in these forums to be).

I mean, I get the image of some lvl200 Omni Martial Artist who wants to 'take back' Mort. I picture him being successful and standing there like superman in the old black and white TV series with his fists on his hips and the O-T flag behind him in the middle of a desert with nothing but sand, radioactive waste, and spiders. What's the point?

You see politics in-game reflect what I see the average age of the gaming population to be. Post-hormonal young adults. Things like the Council of Ares don't work for me and I can't give them any creedance for just that fact: they don't make any sense other than to appease some hormonal need of someone who either feels they need to prove themselves or can't hold their internals long enough as they seek their 'revenge' for perceived affronts. Kinda like Pokemon politics or Transformers negotiations.

So other than 'they're dirty and smell and they took away my vacation home in Mort' why would Omni-Tek want to raise up arms against the Clans?

Even better, as a Neutral, what would you say to me to convince me that it would be the 'right' thing for me to do to sign an employment contract and potentially go and kill Clanners.

I leave it up to you to define 'right'.

[Jynne]

To risk looking like a sophist, OOCly I will stick my neck out and provide one possible reason to join OT and oppose the Clans. Mostly because I like these kinds of discussions

OT may have its flaws, but it really has improved its treatment of employees since the abuses that caused the original revolts that birthed the Clans. OOCly I view this as a real fact. OT employees don't have it nearly as bad as the original miners who revolted to form the Clans.

In the meantime, the Clans have degenerated from a very arguably valid rebellion on strong moral grounds (respect for human life and health, due care for employees, fair wages, safety) and become a bunch of criminals, or at best criminal-shelterers, who repeatedly breach the Tir Accord and interfere with legal OT operations decades after the last war ended in their independence.

In short, the Clans have gone from being mistreated workers rebelling for the sake of a better life, to rebels without a cause at best. At worst, they are bloodthirsty warmongers or cynically manipulative politicians looking to carve out their own petty kingdoms from Omni-Tek's rightful lands.

Again... this is an OOC statement. Let's try to keep the discussion OOC

As for SW:G... I don't even have that high hopes for its gameplay. And I know firsthand that Neocron is an incredible disappointment.

[_________Crazynotion]

Yup, I was postin' OOC before too. If that makes me a scary person, great

The ethics of genetic experimentation and all that stuff is a fascinating topic in its own right - and people can (and have) arge for hours on it without seeing a resolution. It very very quickly becomes a discussion about faith as well, since you start having to draw lines between person as 'something special' vs. person as just an interesting series of chemical reactions. Taking that route causes all sorts of merry heck, and it's fantastic flame-bait. So I'll stop now.

As a quick piece of terminology, the term 'viable' when talking breeding or genetics means 'capable of reproducing.' By that logic, atrox aren't viable. They have huge amounts of testosterone and as a result most likely exhibit exclusively masculine secondary gender characteristics (beards, male bone structure and build - shoulders and hips, male privates) but they can't reporduce. That's all it means - no atrox kiddies. Other than that they're just like any exceptionally large male.

Are nanomages or opifex viable? I have no idea. I'm almost tempted to say no-one on Rubi-Ka is viable, since I've never seen any children. Ask Ragnar or one of the story folks - they'll know.

And right now Omni-Tek have a good reason for charging into Clan territories: to hunt down the fugitives from the law. However, *before* that happened, Omni-Tek had no real reason for wanting any of the Clan lands. Most raids I've seen 'north' have been punitive.

At the moment the only thing OT can really hope for is an extension of the lease. If the lease runs out, they have to hand over government to the people. And that is just going to cause no end of trouble, since 'the people' don't necessarily mean the Clans. Could be the neutrals - and then oh boy are they in trouble!

[Centurion3]

My points where out of character too... I think... maybe... alittle bit of both...

I have nothing against the clanners, but I do feel the need to rise up and protect Omni-Tek's name in issues like this.

And I do love these debates, I am REALLY gonna hate it when Funcom turns this into an black and white, evil and good game... Kinda takes most of the fun out of it when you cant attack the other sides morale.

Long live Omni-Tek! Huzzah... or something...

[_______Nanitehandler]

Kinda takes the fun out of the whole story when you know whos gonna win (clans of course). Ive said it before and ill say it again, this GvE, Black/White, Demon vs Angel **** aint good.

[Jujuwalker]

Wow. Man.

I go away for 2 weeks ( comp blew up/neocron) And look what happens...

[Praecautus]

save us Juju

[______________Martov]

Neocron blew up your computer?

Well, sheeeeeeeeeit. I was genuinely considering having a look at that game.

-I've just stayed the hell away from this thread. Better to rant on about leaving or my desperate attempts to form a "Mountain Dew Code Red Army."