Neutrals are in trouble!

[______________Nelida]

Omni considers neutrals as Omni and if they fight back then Omni will consider them as outlaw Clanners.

However, from the perspective of the neutrals they have effectively taken squaters rights and consider certain areas as their 'territories'. That they think this was is very obvious to me and I have no problem letting them think that way...of course I'm not Omni either. To neutrals fighting off an Omni 'incursion' does NOT make them any less neutral. Of course I recognize that all neutrals are different and have different reasons for calling themselves neutral. However, as a Clanner, I really don't give one wit what OT thinks or claims is 'legal'.

In my book OT is a tyranical corporate ruler that uses Drakonian means to effectively enslave the inhabitants of Rubi-ka for the some purpose of suc
king this planets resources dry. At which time, I might add, they will simply get up and walk out...leaving the rest of us to live in squalor while the walk away with fat bank acccounts. I also believe wholeheartedly that they will even abandon their own employees here if they can not find an profitable way of redeploying them. For OT it is ALL about profit...the will screw over their own employees if it increases their profit.

As a Clanner I fight for the freedom of ALL people of Rubi-ka, be they Clan, Neutral or even Omni. I will fight to free the OT employees that I know will be discarded, when useless, at the drop-of-a-hat by corporate OT. I fully realize that many OT employees can not, for various reasons, leave the employ of OT...if they do not raise a hand to harm me or mine then I shall not harm them.

Hmmm...got off topic a bit didn't I? Oh well. *smiles innocently*

Originally posted by Luxxan
Switzerland would (in theory) fight to defend the territory which it owns. The neutrals on Rubi-Ka don't actually own any territory. It's all owned by Omni-Tek. If the neutrals fought back from an Omni "incursion" then what would they be fighting for?

[_____________Leeklay]

I have never had a problem with either side; that is as far as the business goes. the locals on the other hand are the ones that concern me. When OT or clan parties cannot control the people under them they have failed. I have been attacked several times by the local people. This was not because i attack first. I just happened to be lucky acouple times when there were no guards around so i could eliminate the situation. Otherwise there would be a big pain and the guards would shoot first and not ask any questions once they were done.
I feel that the leaders need to define the line with the local populous. The people who are neutrals are the true threat now because if OT or clan cant control us then they have lost. I think the last thing they want is another side in the fight.

"I was just a simple man....Now I have to fight to survive."

[_________Crazynotion]

It's been said before, and I'll say it again:

The neutrals are not a 'third faction' in the conflict and are in no danger of becoming as such.

The neutrals are exactly that: neutral. As soon as they form an opinion about government and rights one way or the other, they cease being neutral.

[Dabblez]

"In my book OT is a tyranical corporate ruler that uses Drakonian means to effectively enslave the inhabitants of Rubi-ka for the some purpose of sucking this planets resources dry. At which time, I might add, they will simply get up and walk out...leaving the rest of us to live in squalor while the walk away with fat bank acccounts. I also believe wholeheartedly that they will even abandon their own employees here if they can not find an profitable way of redeploying them. For OT it is ALL about profit...the will screw over their own employees if it increases their profit.


So if, by your own admission, anyone left on Rubi-Ka will be left tol live squalor once OT leaves Rubi-Ka, surely the clan's efforts to send OT packing are misguided to the extreme :-)

Of course, you point is about resources. However OT's lease is do to lapse in 25 years or so ( I don't have the figures right next to me) where as the Notum stocks should last another 1000 years on present estimates.

Now I understand you may mistrust OT, that is only prudent. But before you start killing people - hard working men and women with families who are just trying to theri job like anybody else - isn't worth seeing if OT do in fact stick to the terms of their contract? Are the current clan raids on Omni territories really helping your cause on Rubi-Ka and vis a vis the ICC? Or is it just young, impulsive clanner warriors trying to prove their bravery battle to impress the ladies who are doing this?

At the end of the day it is one thing to say I have greivances with OT, I do not trust them or approve of what they do. It is quite another to pick up a gun and start killing folk.

[______________Nelida]

without provocation.

In fact I ONLY support attacks on OT Corp military forces and Omnipol...and some strategic attacks on OT industrial complexes. The common OT workers are not my enemy as long as they don't take up arms against me. It is OT Corps leaders and their armed thugs that are my enemies. My goal is to see OT Corp OFF this planet as rulers and one day, after old wounds mend, back as customers ONLY. I just happen to disagree that ANY corporation should have a contract allowing them effective dictatorship over an entire planet of people. Against that I will fight...be it OT, SBC, or even ICC for supporting such contracts. A populace is not something to be 'owned' or even leased by contract. The people of Rubi-ka must govern themselves...including the resident OT employees. Off-planet OT Corp officials and those OT temporarily stationed here should have NO part in the governing of the people of Rubi-ka.

The honest peaceful and hardworking OT Corp employees have nothing to fear from me. I will no longer take part in any group that runs, like rabid dogs, through Omni Entertainment indescriminatly killing. I will also not judge any individual as my 'foe', nor as 'friend', soley based on their faction flag (except on the battle field without prior agreement to the contrary).

Originally posted by Savoy
"In my book OT is a tyranical corporate ruler that uses Drakonian means to effectively enslave the inhabitants of Rubi-ka for the some purpose of sucking this planets resources dry. At which time, I might add, they will simply get up and walk out...leaving the rest of us to live in squalor while the walk away with fat bank acccounts. I also believe wholeheartedly that they will even abandon their own employees here if they can not find an profitable way of redeploying them. For OT it is ALL about profit...the will screw over their own employees if it increases their profit.


So if, by your own admission, anyone left on Rubi-Ka will be left tol live squalor once OT leaves Rubi-Ka, surely the clan's efforts to send OT packing are misguided to the extreme :-)

Of course, you point is about resources. However OT's lease is do to lapse in 25 years or so ( I don't have the figures right next to me) where as the Notum stocks should last another 1000 years on present estimates.

Now I understand you may mistrust OT, that is only prudent. But before you start killing people - hard working men and women with families who are just trying to theri job like anybody else - isn't worth seeing if OT do in fact stick to the terms of their contract? Are the current clan raids on Omni territories really helping your cause on Rubi-Ka and vis a vis the ICC? Or is it just young, impulsive clanner warriors trying to prove their bravery battle to impress the ladies who are doing this?

At the end of the day it is one thing to say I have greivances with OT, I do not trust them or approve of what they do. It is quite another to pick up a gun and start killing folk.

[Bionitrous]

OK, riddle me this.

IBM finds a completely deserted 50 square mile island in the south pacific. They bring 5000 people to the island.

They set up manufacturing plants, housing, and entertainment facilities out of their pockets.

What does IBM do to the employees who decide to start blowing up the chip manufacturing plant.

Now, we see someone who wants to kick them off the island, take over the factories, and only let them come back as customers?

I realize you guys are trying to post in-character. But, get real a little bit.

There was no life detected on the rock when Omni-Tek first landed. There were no humans, no leets, no reets, no direseeds, nothing.

You could not breathe the atmosphere until Omni-Tek started terraforming.

I think too many of you are likening this to the American War of Independance or something.

The Clans were given control of at least half the terraformed region and yet some still want more. It's like The U.S. in 1830 suddenly deciding to invade Great Britain for some bizzarre reason.

The Clans may have an argument. But, unless you are roleplaying a myopic, obstinant ignoramus who can't see the big picture, half the rhetoric coming out of the clans doesn't work within the framework of the backstory.

Few people will listen to rants or roleplaying that just doesn't work within the structure of the Story. Come up with a real reason to hate Omni-Tek that is supported by the Story and your argument will be easier. They are out there (and no 'they killed my wife and daughter' isn't one of them).

[Jynne]

Some decent reasons to hate Omni-Tek:

Omni-Tek is polluting the environment with dangerous chemicals and toxic waste. Indeed their planetary stewardship overall is shoddy and has a very negative effect on everyone's life.

Omni-Tek creates hideous monsters in their experiments, then releases them willy-nilly into the ecosystem to wreck havoc on the planet, the wildlife, and humans.

Omni-Tek's irresponsible human experimentation - such as the creation and release of thousands of hideous human mutations - is an atrocity against the human race itself. It would be fairly safe to call these experiments "crimes against humanity" I think.

The base reason for it all though is this: Omni-Tek consistently and constantly shows a callous disregard for the sanctity of life, especially human life, in their official policy, even as regards their own workers.

[Bionitrous]

Good points. All worth fighting against if you subscribe to those ideals.

Although .... what would you say if I defecated in the corner of my bedroom in my own house? Is that illegal?

If it were immoral, do you have a right to kick me out of my house?

I think you have to stick to the base argument that Omni-Tek is an evil entity and not deal so much with what they do on Rubi'Ka. After all, it is their house. They found it. They landed. They made it habitable. Etc.

I'm sure there are plenty transports off the planet for people who no longer wish to work for Omni-Tek.

The only argument I think I can accept is from those who see Omni-Tek for what it is. Beyond all the defecating in their own backyard to the corruption at the core. It's not that Omni-Tek needs to be kicked off Rubi'Ka. It's that it needs to be cleansed from the entire galaxy.

Your last line basically points out that you feel this way.

And that's a tougher argument to put forth in-character.

None of your first three points probably hold any merit 'technically'. Depending on the contracts of the workers and the details of their lease on the planet, they can probably leave a rotting pebble floating in space if they so desire.

As much as one might find the actions 'de****able', it is not usually accepted in civilized society to walk into someone else's house and tell them how to conduct their business.

Look at all the Flak the little Bush boy is getting for proposing to go clean house in Iraq. De****able moron running around in that country commiting, planning, or aiding who knows what atrocities. Yet, those people keep him in power and it's his patch of land.

Not a direct analogy. But, there's parallels. You want to stamp out the evil simply because it's evil. The Bush boy is having trouble because he is trying to rationalize in order to build a consensus among nations. Note the difficulties he's having.

It's the same problem the Clans are having when trying to point to specifics as to why Omni-Tek should be wiped from Rubi'Ka. Almost every argument can be retorted with 'so what? It's not illegal and it's our planet'.

The fact that the Omega's founded Omni-Tek if it ever gets revealed will instantly polarize the planet's and the galaxy's population. There will be no more beating around the bush and ***** footing with politics and finger pointing.

And as I've stated before. Until this whole 'conflict' evolves to a point where it's more than a couple spoiled brats involved in 'he said, she said', I'm staying Neutral.

[Jynne]

Oh, I'm not exactly stating my In-Character views about Omni-Tek, though they are related to that. I'm just saying... for people who want them... here are some reasons.

As far as I can tell, OT gave rise to the Clan movement by treating its workers poorly. Unsafe working conditions, low wages, a high rate of injury on the job. It sounds a lot like the way the first few decades of industrialization were before people started unionizing. I don't think the notum miners would have been allowed to just leave if they wanted. Remember, OT stationed armed troops at the notum mines to make people work according to the TimeLine.

But even if they could have left... imagine what would have happened in real earth history if the government didn't step in when fights broke out between unions picketing for better working conditions and union-busters like the Pinkertons. There were several full-on riots in America because of union vs anti-union activity.

On Rubi-Ka we had that, but there was no government police force to come and stop it from escalating into a full scale war such as happened.

As for "it's OT's back yard" - there are in fact laws that prohibit us from dumping waste and engaging in many other unsafe and unsanitary activities in our back yards or in our homes. If you defacate in the corner of your house and leave it laying around you can indeed have action taken against you, including the removal of any children from your care (as one example).

[Bionitrous]

Yes, I suppose there does come a time when the inmates eventually have the moral right to run the asylum so to speak.

Assuming that the New World (North America) was totally devoid of flora and fauna when the first settlers set foot ashore. Assuming there were no Native Americans. Just a big rock. What would justify the descendants of the people who made life liveable in claiming the land as their own and taking it away from the initial founders?

Laws vs. ethics and the ethics of laws, eh? Legal ownership vs. moral ownership. In the end, I guess it comes down to who's got the biggest guns.

---------

And it find it funny that one can beat around the bush but can't ***** foot around when it comes to getting to the point. Seems the fauna is more provocative than the flora.

[______________Luxxan]

The justification is this: why do they have any more right to this planet than I do? The first humans landed on Rubi-Ka 774 years ago this past Tuesday...that's some 40-odd generations of people who lived and died here. That makes this our home.

The argument "well, Omni-Tek is what let you get here to begin with" just doesn't hold water. Does that mean a parent has the right to shoot their child because the child wouldn't exist without the parent? "I created you" is not a good reason. It can be up until a point, but after a certain amount of time autonomy is an inalienable right.

The same goes for all the life-forms Omni created. Sure, for a while it makes sense that Omni has the right to control and destroy species as they build an ecology, but once a species has existed, adapted, and become a part of it's habitat completely seperate from Omni-Tek control, it should no longer be considered the property of Omni-Tek.

I believe the ICC leases specifically allow for this condition. A corporation is allowed to habitate a planet with emloyees, but after a certain number of generations, that corporation must allow people to live free on that planet and exist seperate from the corporation. Just because my great-great-great-ad naseum grandfather was an Omni-Tek employee doesn't mean Omni-Tek has any right over me, including telling me I have to work for them or I have to leave my home planet.

However, the ICC lease for Rubi-Ka was created under "special" circumstances which (if I remember correctly) allowed them complete control of the planet for much longer than would be normally allowed. This is because the ICC signed the lease before anyone (other than Omni-Tek) knew the value of notum. Once Omni-Tek declared a monopoly, the ICC was forced to re-negotiate a new lease so the rest of the galaxy could afford to have notum without handing over their firstborn. The rights of the future citizens of Rubi-Ka were sacrificed in order to ensure the notum would keep flowing.

[Bionitrous]

Nice post, Luxxan. That's the kind of lucid thinking I was trying to provoke by playing devil's advocate. You don't even bother trying to defend the legality of Omni-Tek's position as it is bullet-proof. Instead you go right to the heart of the matter and bring out the ethicality of corporate government.

You don't want to bring up such a sensitive subject, but it's akin to the argument of when a fetus becomes a living creature. At what point does the populace of Rubi'Ka become an entity in its own right and not simply a satellite office?

Once again, I think that he with the biggest guns might have the right answer to that question. That whole thing about the victors writing the history books and everything.

[______________Luxxan]

Well, in my opinion, it's just a matter of the ICC voiding the lease on Rubi-Ka and creating a new, legal one. This matter hasn't been very elaborated on in the story, but my understanding is that the ICC was taken for a ride by Omni-Tek and would like nothing better than to revoke the lease and start over.

My goal is to help them do that. Make Omni look bad, break it's own rules, and alienate as many other corporations as possible, and this time, they'll lose the lease all together.

The ethics of it aren't really a concern in this case. The ICC has predetermined limits on how long a corporation can remain in control over a planet's population. I'd just like to see those rules used in this situation. Rubi-Ka should be no exception.

[Centurion3]

Originally posted by Jynne
Some decent reasons to hate Omni-Tek:

Omni-Tek is polluting the environment with dangerous chemicals and toxic waste. Indeed their planetary stewardship overall is shoddy and has a very negative effect on everyone's life.

Omni-Tek creates hideous monsters in their experiments, then releases them willy-nilly into the ecosystem to wreck havoc on the planet, the wildlife, and humans.

Omni-Tek's irresponsible human experimentation - such as the creation and release of thousands of hideous human mutations - is an atrocity against the human race itself. It would be fairly safe to call these experiments "crimes against humanity" I think.

The base reason for it all though is this: Omni-Tek consistently and constantly shows a callous disregard for the sanctity of life, especially human life, in their official policy, even as regards their own workers.

I feel I have to comment on this, maybe its because I de****e the Unity of the Rose so much or the lack of logic in this... we'll see...

1. Omni-Tek is polluting the planet with dangerous chemicals and toxic waste... you forgot to mention that we created this entire atmosphere and life to it. You do not give us any recognition for building up an ball of rock to an habital planet, instead complain if our terraforming plants creates an toxic byproduct, which by the way, I cant see how it could damage this planet since its all artificial anyway.

2. Omni-Tek creates hideous monsters and then releases them... this is part of the terraforming process and maybe not all creatures are suitable to survive in the wild, if they are not they will die out of starvation or fall prey to another creature. IF HOWEVER an artificiall creature CAN survive in the wild then there is NOTHING wrong with that specie. If an mutant can survive and prosper then they are an suitable specie to live on this planet. This problem that you talk about will solve itself and what YOU define as 'hideous' is an figure of taste. Any creature that can survive deserv to survive.

3. Omni-Tek has (and is still?) experiment on human beings and has released mutants into the wild (goes together with my earlier point). As an nanomage I am eternally gratefull to Omni-Tek for creating me, and I understand as an scientist that not every experiment can be an success or an sentient being. Where it not for the experiments on humans the Nanomages, Opifex and Atroxes would never have existed in the first place. Are they hideous monsters too? And are leets and reets hideous monsters too because they are artificially mutated from rabbits and parrots?

Either way, nature will find an balance, an creature not suitable for this enviroment will die out without you haveing to chase them down and wipe out their specie. And as an nanomage im de****ed by your organisation and consider them personal enemies of mine.

Thank you for this planet, its enviroment, its wildlife and MY LIFE Omni-Tek

[Centurion3]

Comments? Counter points? Bump damnit

[_________Crazynotion]

I'm with you on this one, Centurion3.

To accuse Omni-Tek of ecological crimes is laughable. Omni-Tek is pumping huge amounts of toxic chemicals into the atmosphere, and seeding the planet with little factories that do it all the time.

One of the biggest ones is a highly corrosive gas that tends to break down many metals, cause a number of minerals to 'scale over' and is extremely hazardous to a vast range of life-forms.

It's called Oxygen.

I'd swear they're aiming to have about 20% of the planets atmosphere consisting of that horrid stuff! 1/5th! Gak! Lets stop them! Lets destroy all the little factories that make the stuff now (I believe they call them 'plants')

* * *

And again, on genetic modification. When you're making an ecosystem you have to make the whole thing, including the ugly parts. Leets are cute, but offal larvae aren't. However, you need both for a successful ecosystem and both have been engineered and introduced.

As for 'human experimentation' you're right again there. Omni-Tek (and every other hypercorp.) has been messing about with genetics of all species in order to ensure a stable, adapted population for the planet.

There is a good reason why only Solitus are allowed to travel between worlds: the opifex built for Rubi-Ka is built for Rubi-Ka, and probably isn't compatable with the ecosystem of any other planet. Likewise atrox (which, incidentally, were *invented* for Rubi-Ka) and nanomages (also invented for Rubi-Ka).

The issue with nanomages is that you cannot produce nanomages on other planets, while you can produce atrox and opifex elsewhere. You still don't move them between planets, however, because of the dangers of cross-contaminating ecosystems.

All those mutants and funny looking critters will do something for the ecosystem. If they didn't, they'd have died out long ago. So they're just as viable a species as leets or brontos - even if they don't look nearly as cute.

* * *

There are reasons for hating Omni-Tek, but rolling out the environmental or genetic modification argument is about 20 centuries out of date.

[Jynne]

First, remember this is an OOC thread, and indeed, primarily an OOC forum. At least, I post on it as if it were. Second, go back and read what I wrote.

I never said that the mere act of genetic manipulation, or the act of environmental control and stewardship, were reason to hate O-T. The obvious irresponsibility of O-T's use of genetic manipulation and their neglect of good stewardship is, however, a good reason for hating them. Their environmental and experimental policies are indicative of a lack of regard for living things including, if not especially, humanity.

Remember, there are no aliens. Most of the monsters and mutant humanoids you see in game are the direct result of omni-tek experimentation. Do you OOCly think that Lifebleeders, Brieflabbs, Babyfaces, Pain Lords and Fossegrims were created in successful experiments and then unleashed on the world responsibly and for a good reason? Fossegrims maybe... the others? What about eremites, pit lizards, sandworms, and other outright monsters? They were created by science as well - would you call that a responsible use of science?

Then what about things like claw mutants, TAC mutants, and shade mutants, who were specially designed for warfare? Is it a moral act to mutate humans into weapons, rendering them unsuitable for normal human lives? And is it a moral act to discard those humans when their purpose is served?

So that's why mistreatment of the human genome and the environment is a good reason for hating O-T. Individually the monsters and cases can possibly be explained away, but cumulatively it points at an intentional policy. There is a line between responsible and irresponsible use of science, even if it's sometimes hazy... but look around Rubi-Ka and you have to come to the conclusion that Omni-Tek didn't just cross a line, they left it in the dust far, far behind. Read the beastiary guide in the manual, the writer describes most of the mutants with lines like, "Omni-Med screwed the pooch again!"

[Centurion3]

What about sharks, panthers and birds of prey? Are they any less natural because they are dangerous? Everything that survives has its place

[Bionitrous]

You know that's a scary thought. The 'Mutant Issue' has been danced around quite a bit on the outskirts of the Story.

Now, we know the Omegas were defeated by the Solitus last time around.

We know that the Omegas pull the strings from way up high in Omni-Tek.

What if they tried or are trying to come up with an alternative to having Solitus as their slaves this time?

Rhinomen? Eyes? Claws? Shades?

Remember each of these had a specific purpose. The Shades were even supposed to have a great Conceal skill and be very difficult to see. (Yeah we know the programmers weren't up to the task, but we can 'pretend' we don't see 'em).

Was the whole Mutant thing an attempt for the Omegas to rule over a mutated humanity that was engineered not to rebel like the Solitus did?

[Centurion3]

Originally posted by Bionitrous
You know that's a scary thought. The 'Mutant Issue' has been danced around quite a bit on the outskirts of the Story.

Now, we know the Omegas were defeated by the Solitus last time around.

We know that the Omegas pull the strings from way up high in Omni-Tek.

What if they tried or are trying to come up with an alternative to having Solitus as their slaves this time?

Rhinomen? Eyes? Claws? Shades?

Remember each of these had a specific purpose. The Shades were even supposed to have a great Conceal skill and be very difficult to see. (Yeah we know the programmers weren't up to the task, but we can 'pretend' we don't see 'em).

Was the whole Mutant thing an attempt for the Omegas to rule over a mutated humanity that was engineered not to rebel like the Solitus did?

Have no idea what this is about, didnt read the book. So I cant comment on this.