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Thread: Neutrals are in trouble!

  1. #61

    can you saaayyyyy

    War of the clones?

    hihihihihihi

    Think about it: reclaim = cloning.
    --
    The nootie's infamous black joker, Jujuwalker :
    RP profile : http://www.ao-universe.com/tools.php...ion=show&id=74
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    La censure est la negation de l' esprit. (Censoring is the negation of thought) --Yvirnig
    When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -- Hunter S. Thompson
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    QUOTE OF THE DAY : And remember : you minions SHOULDN'T BE THINKING!

  2. #62

    Well stated Yarko...

    Although I do believe that there are, as someone else stated here, "more reasons for being neutral than there are neutrals".

    I have been fighting the common belief "if you aren't with us then you're against us" within the Clans for a very long time. I find that attitude rather immature, short-sighted and ill-informed. Unfortunately it is prevelant within the faction I was born into. Just as unfortunately I am not allowed to ever be recognized as a true neutral although that is where my heart is.

    The faction 'tags' we are given do not often reflect what is in our hearts. It is indeed very unfortunate that some see only the tag and not the heart of others...sometimes not even the heart of others that they have known for a very long time. I am truely sorry for these shallow and judgemental people be they Clan, Omni or even other Neutrals...for they will forever live in ignorance.

    I, for one, will continue to work to bring light to this issue. At times it is disheartening and more ground seems to be lost than gained. Perpetually my heart aches from the pain of a loved one that is now forced to live branded with an artificial stigma that tries to identify her as what she is not.

    Faction identification is NOT and has NEVER been an indicator of the true heart of an individual. It is nothing more than a cheap trick to force us into a lock-step march down a path not necessarily of our choosing. To those masters of this forced march I shed over YOU all of my venom and hatred. I promise to escape your shackles and spread the word of peace, love and true freedom across all of Rubika.

    To borrow the words of a dear friend and ally... "Till All are Free" ... Free to follow a path of our OWN destiny.

    Originally posted by Yarko


    Indeed, I believe it is? It is the choice of respect for all, without prejudice. It is the choice for a free and independent life, without warfare. It is not a choice of people who run away from the conflict, but from people who are above the conflict because they see the absurdity of it and the misdoings on both sides and do not wish to be part of that.

    If you believe for one moment that being neutral is being an opportunist, then your knowledge of neutrality is very poor indeed. Neutrality means less resources and less possibilities. And yet, it is something that we are not willing to give up. If this is difficult for you to understand it is only because you do not comprehend the soul of the neutral people, who are in all their diversity and contrasts, a proud people.

    Our cities, and yes I call them ours, have always been and hopefully always will be a save heaven for all of you, where all of you are welcomed without distinction. The fact that this often ends in the killing of neutral guards and traders is deplorable, but one can only hope that one day all of you will become a little more ?neutral? and so the lives of all citizens of our planet will be worth living.

    Yarko
    Last edited by Nelida; Aug 29th, 2002 at 21:43:00.

  3. #63

    OOC

    To paraphrase: what you said there has been repeated many, many times; we are playing a role-playing game, and as such PLAY A ROLE, regardless of side. Judging a person by their side is prejudice and nothing more.

    SIDE NOTE: I, for one, was considering creating an 'Omni supporters' Clan. Would have been pretty interesting.

    Oh, and would somebody mind filling me in on this 'Till all are free...' thing?
    Last edited by Martov; Aug 31st, 2002 at 00:58:31.

  4. #64

    Question Omni supporters clan?

    Sounds like an interesting idea - I'd love to hear more

    How do you see it working? What's the political standpoint that would seperate the clan from an independent group on Omni-Tek's payroll (something that a lot of omni orgs classify themselves as)?

    My understanding is that the one common ground item for all Clans is refusal to be governed by Omni-Tek.

    Do tell more of how this'd work! I'm certainly interested
    Crazynotion - Atrox Bureaucrat, RK1

    Formerly posted as Mechanita

  5. #65
    Marta--not sure what you mean by Nelida not playing a role. Seems that she articulates her role nicely.
    Kungwho Buddha-Bellied MA
    Zapsta Notum-Plump NT
    Awdd Keepster Gimpster

  6. #66

    Post ...

    Originally posted by Luxxan


    I'm frankly getting a bit sick of the arrogant neo-political neutral stance. I'm all for the neutral cause, but this recent turn towards "we're better than everyone else"ism is wearing a bit thin.

    You are neutral. You do not fight. You take no side in the conflict. You live on borrowed land, on borrowed time, and depend on others for food, supplies, and, quite frankly, your livelihood. That is your plight.



    I couldn't have said it better myself and that's the whole problem. The moment you stand up for your "rights" and "independence" you are in every respect a member of the clans. Maybe you need to refresh your memory about what the sides really stand for.

    The start up room says "Primary goals for the Clans are freedom and spiritual gain. The Clans are opposed to what Omni-Tek stands for and fight to free Rubi-Ka of it's oppressive rule."

    The game description says "The rebel clans consist of a number of different factions, all with their own solutions to the current problems plaguing the planet. Some want a political, diplomatic solution - while others resort to terrorism and violence with the ultimate goal of overthrowing the Omni-Tek government."

    Everyday the neutrals get more aggressive about their rights, I can't help but just think of you as yet another clan. We are not all terrorists, as much as you might like to think so. Every clan has it's own perrogative, but the overriding theme is the same: "Give us our freedom or we will fight you and take it." From what you have said, how are you any different?
    I truly thank you for this post, Luxxan. As a neutral, I am constantly enbattled with others in the neutral community for this very reason. I also believe that if folks want "peace", "lands", "independence", etc, then they should be clan. The on-going argument is that "we don't consider ourselves clan or Omni, and don't wish to fight either side (or we want to fight BOTH)".

    I RP a man who is stranded here, and trying every day to repair his ship and get the hell off of RK. To me (and many neutrals) that is what a neutral is - someone who just doesn't care about the conflict or hasn't made up his mind. I don't (and really shouldn't in an RP sense) care at all if "NLC falls to OT".

    What the "Neutral Coalition" is geared towards is neutral PvP. If you read the posts from many of their members here on the boards (and other boards) they are looking for reduction of suppression gas from 25-0 in "Neutral controlled areas" (I laugh at that one). They also tend to complain when a SlayerDroid attacks them when entering an Omni OP.

    So, the best I can tell, they want:

    1) The ability to attack anyone in the game (to defend 'their' lands)
    2) No reprocussions for their actions.

    I constantly try to RP and install some sense of "neutrality" in many of their members, but it just doesn't seem to work. The Clan ideology is very preveland in the neutral community (primarily the Neutral Coalition). The only saving grace is that it *appears* FC is taking steps to ensure that the few neutrals left really will be neutral - not clanners hiding behind a l33t neutral tag.

    Folks, there is a war going on out there. If you chose not to join a side that is fine (I did), but don't complain when one side or the other shoots you dead in their territory...

    Provisioner
    Trader: The trader is the most trade-skill oriented of all professions.

  7. #67

    Re: OOC

    uhhh...I have to admit I have no idea what you are 'knocking'...

    Or are you just paraphrasing what I said, and saying I said nothing new?
    *shrugs* ok... I more or less agree except that the faction 'flags' we are sometimes stuck with dictate quite a bit of game mechanics and can make it rather difficult to "...play a role, regardless of side." FC seems to have some very rigid little rules that, while designed to enforce their story line, also have the rather annoying side-effect of making your suggestion mechanically difficult at times.

    "Till all are Free" - slogan of NLF...meaning till all nanomages are free from abuse by solitus and opifex. I just borrowed it and expanded it to mean till all are free of abuse by FC Drakonian policies and rules.

    Originally posted by Martov
    I hate to knock you Nelida, but what you said there has been repeated many, many times; we are playing a role-playing game, and as such PLAY A ROLE, regardless of side. Judging a person by their side is prejudice and nothing more.

    SIDE NOTE: I, for one, was considering creating an 'Omni supporters' Clan. Would have been pretty interesting.

    Oh, and would somebody mind filling me in on this 'Till all are free...' thing?

  8. #68
    Kungwho: Never, EVER, call me 'Marta' again.

    Nelida: I was going to knock you on some point, but I forgot to write it in, and I can't remember what it was now, so I just removed the knocking bit.

    Crazynotion: Well, the idea orginated from my noticing that the Omni Intern-Ops and Executive shirts don't require that you be Omni to wear them. Then, I was thinking about how in wars there are always resistance groups--so why not an Omni-2 resistance group?

    The Omni-2 Resistance would hold rallies about living conditions in Clan cities (do they even have running water?) and treatment of OT prisoners. Essentially, they would be a OT department that would be stuck in Clan teritory but refuse to be subject to Clan rule.

    Also, they would sabotage Clan bases and operations and whenever OT would attack a Clan town, they would help the OT troops in.

    Naturally, the Omni-2 Resistance's goal would be the 'reunification' of the Omni cities.

    By the way, I have lots of other fun idea for orgs, like my ever-dreamy Communist and Fascist parties, and even a Butcher's Shop org--gain rank by chopping the most meat up!

  9. #69

    One possibility for a "militant neutral" stance.

    "All right you Omnis. Your land's over there, stay on it. You Clanners, your lands THERE, you stay on IT. If ya wanna fight each other, go around or we'll be shootin' atcha!"

    Of course, the game mechanics specifically prohibit characters like the one above, but it'd be interesting to see them once in awhile.

  10. #70
    Y'know, the term 'Spartans' never made it into the game...

    ...and the 'Borealis Spartan Military' has a nice ring to it...

  11. #71

    Clan, Neutral and Omni in agreement?

    (entirely OOC)

    I'm going to reinfoce what Luxxan and Provisioner pointed out earlier:

    If you're fighting for freedom, land or some other sociopolitical gain then you're Clan. The stance of 'you over there, you overe there, come here and I'll shoot ya' isn't neutral in this conflict. By shooting at Omni-Tek troops on their way through you're declaring your alleigance.

    This conflict has more in common with the American War for Independence than an invasion. There's even the French in the form of SolB/ICC.

    Omni-Tek own the planet. Either you're happy with that (and Omni) or you're not (and thus Clan).

    So think of who was neutral and lived in USA during the Independence War.

    It is possible to be neutral to the conflict. Provisioner's example is a good one. The citizens of Jobe are another good example (we're just here to make stuff, folks. We'll sell to everyone).

    * * *

    Provisioner: what do you know that I don't about FC's future plans regarding neutrals? Go on- spill

    * * *

    And last point (to agree with Provisioner's post): Rubi-Ka is divided into two areas: territory belonging to the Clans, and territory belonging to Omni-Tek. There isn't any 'neutral' territory, so you're always on someone else's territory. Ergo, you shouldn't be surprised when you get shot even if you're just outside Borealis (Omni-Tek territory) or Newland (Clan territory).

    The closest you get to neutral territory is contested territory, so by that reasoning the neutral areas are 2HO and MMD. Making them 0% wouldn't bother me
    Crazynotion - Atrox Bureaucrat, RK1

    Formerly posted as Mechanita

  12. #72
    By shooting at Omni-Tek troops on their way through you're declaring your alleigance.
    Even if you're shooting at Clan troops on the way through too? No offense, but it sounds a touch odd to me to call that an ALLIEGANCE of any sort. Maybe you're just gun-crazy or you've decided it's your land and NOBODY'S bringing guns on it but you. Sane, it's probably not, but I think it does qualify as neutral. Everybody's a target.

    Please note that I'm not thinking of organized armies or anything like that. I'm more picturing the gun-nut who's been out in the suns too long. The wacky old hermit who stopped making sense ten years ago. Maybe a SMALL survivalist community. An individual or extremely small group (ten or fewer people) who just want to be left alone, have firepower to back up their desires, and probably aren't fully in-touch with what's going on outside their own little worlds.

    Again, it's not necessarily a sane outlook in the greater context (In fact it definitely isn't), but it IS a neutral one.

  13. #73

    I'll grant you that one :)

    The hermit in the woods scenario is questionable. You could define that hermit as a Clan of one if he were resisting Omni-Tek government or presence.

    The farmer who just runs his farm and doesn't care whose security are watching over him is neutral. He's also got no recourse if either side shoot him, but the key is he isn't shooting first.

    The Clans are not a big, organised resistance against Omni-Tek to my understanding. They're a bunch of disparate, often disagreeing (to the point of violence) anarchists who couldn't mutually work their way out of a paper bag let alone fight a war. The Clans aren't a side - they're about a gazillion sides and ideas - much like neutrals. I don't think the Clans have - at least not recently - done anything resembling a coherent, coordinated anything except maybe a pageant. In that, Omni-Tek seem to be the ones who excel at cooperation and order - and rightly so.

    The key difference between Neutrals and Clans is the Clans are not happy with the idea of being ruled and run over by Omni-Tek, and are prepared to do something about it. That something ranges from 'lets form a council and peace delegation to try and come to a happy compromise' (Pilgrims) right through to 'kill them! kill them all and anyone who doesn't want to kill them as well!' (Sentinels).

    You don't have to be a supporter of Radiman or the CoT to be Clan. You don't even have to like any of the other Clans. The only thing you need is an intense dislike of Omni-Tek's current regime and drive to total and complete domination of Rubi-Ka. No other entry criteria is required.

    By this rationale, the Dust Brigade are effectively a Clan in that they appear to be opposed to Omni-Tek's rule of Rubi-Ka. That's why Omni-Tek made the demands to the CoT to hand them over - the CoT (mistakenly?) claimed responsibility for anyone who wasn't Omni-Tek at one point. The fact that the Dust Brigade merrily kill other clans is a moot point in the definitions. I believe the Sentinels were known to kill fellow clanners as well (for being too soft), and they're still a clan.

    ((moving more OOC now))

    Definitions are icky things in any conflict. And no, relying on what the 'T' info comes up with on the masked commandos isn't a good way of identifying their faction. As far as Omni-Tek and ICC are concerned, for instance, there is no such thing as neutral. Even though I'm sure ICC troops will be flagged as such.

    If anything, the only reason I assume Masked Commando's come up as neutral is so they'll get attacked (or attack) everyone merrily and so as not to muddy the waters on the 'who are they?' front too much. After all, if they came up as Clan then I'm sure a lot of clanspeople (we're talking players now) would either defect or cry foul - very few people want to be associated with such nasty folk. Remember, not everyone is a role-player and many simply joined the Clans because they want to be the good guys.
    Crazynotion - Atrox Bureaucrat, RK1

    Formerly posted as Mechanita

  14. #74
    I don't see why you find this concept of "hostile neutrality" so hard to understand. It's NOT that they care about the Omni/Clans thing, they don't care that Omni "claims" the entire planet, including that little patch they've decided to call"home."

    They have no desire to "get involved" and have a distinct (over)reaction to anything that looks like it might force them to. Omni, Clans, neutrals, ICC, it doesn't really matter. It's a threat, BLAST IT!

    Of course, with your definition of "Anybody who puts up the slightest resistance to Omni-Tek is a Clannie" not only does the Dust Brigade, but the ICC, Sol Banking, and probably just about any large group in the entire GALAXY is or was a clan at some point, following your argument to its' conclusion.

  15. #75

    And the last bit of the definition

    Well, if everyone on the galaxy was claiming parts of Rubi-Ka as theirs to rule, govern and live on in the way they want to, then yes.

    But they're not, so they aren't.

    Dust Brigade is a tenuous 'clan' link at best because they're not necessarily opposing Omni-Tek governance of Rubi-Ka. Heck, no-one knows what they're doing except blowing stuff up and killing folks for what appears to be no good reason.
    Crazynotion - Atrox Bureaucrat, RK1

    Formerly posted as Mechanita

  16. #76
    What about total anarchists?

    I don't think they would like the Clan structure or OT.

  17. #77

    Clan structure?

    What Clan structure?

    CoA? CoT? Those clans that don't want anything to do with either? The Clans *are* anarchists. They're a loose, disorganised mob. Some of them (CoT) have been granted some space in the northern part of terraformed Rubi-Ka, and are liberal and hippie enough to say that space is for all those who don't want to live under Omni-Tek. What any given clan (or individual clanner) does with their space is their bag.

    Structure? Any structure is simply an attempt by one group or another to try and present a unified face in their dealings with Omni-Tek. And most of the time these 'structures' crumble faster than they get erected.
    Crazynotion - Atrox Bureaucrat, RK1

    Formerly posted as Mechanita

  18. #78
    Originally posted by Lily Inverse
    Of course, with your definition of "Anybody who puts up the slightest resistance to Omni-Tek is a Clannie" not only does the Dust Brigade, but the ICC, Sol Banking, and probably just about any large group in the entire GALAXY is or was a clan at some point, following your argument to its' conclusion.
    The vital difference is WHY they are resisting. The ICC and SBC have different reasons for disliking Omni-Tek, just as do the settles of Jobe, which was the example used in another thread much like this one. People who are 'clan' would be those who wish to live freely on the planet without corporate rule and who's main goal is to ensure that freedom. The people of Jobe wish to persue knowledge and do not actively resist Omni-Tek occupation, the ICC wishes to police, and SBC wishes to control Rubi-Ka for it's own corporate ends. None of these examples fulfill the clan nature of "freedom to live here to our own ends without corporate control."
    Clan fixer, Fourth Title

    Director of Information
    Analog Myth

  19. #79

    OOC: this isn't entirely true...

    Switzerland during WWII was 'neutral'. BUT if any side were to have violated their soviernty they would have fought back. They were (and still are) armed and quite willing to repel their own borders. If they had responded to a German invasion they would NOT be any less 'neutral'...simply defending their own land. If, though, they had then pushed the enemy back BEYOND their boarders, or engaged the enemy in other ways outside their borders, or provide assistance to the Allies but not to the Axis then they would NOT be 'neutral' any longer.

    I hear so many Clanners say that a neutral is NOT neutral if they help an Omni...team with them or heal them. This is simply not true. If that neutral shows a preferance for helping Omni then they are not truely neutral. If they treat Omni and Clan the same way then they still are neutral. One is not choosing a side simply by aiding or befriending a member of that side. You have to look at the over balance that individual demonstrates, or is willing to demonstrate.

    Just because FC put these silly little black, white, and 'neutral' tags on us does NOT mean that is the way we really work. Sorry FC but we are real people and are MUCH more complicated than you seem to give us credit for. I for one will not be forced into your narrow little path because of your faction game mechanics.

    This is one big reason why I have left Clan CAS...Redruum sees only in back and white. To him and many of his followers there is NO room for diplomacy...only for killing all Omni...black or white only. And, disturbingly, I believe he is going down the path toward not seeing that shade called 'neutral'...only black and white.

    hmmm...my sig...btw, no longer Advisor to Clan CAS...i'll have to change that

    Originally posted by Crazynotion
    (entirely OOC)

    I'm going to reinfoce what Luxxan and Provisioner pointed out earlier:

    If you're fighting for freedom, land or some other sociopolitical gain then you're Clan. The stance of 'you over there, you overe there, come here and I'll shoot ya' isn't neutral in this conflict. By shooting at Omni-Tek troops on their way through you're declaring your alleigance.

    This conflict has more in common with the American War for Independence than an invasion. There's even the French in the form of SolB/ICC.

    Omni-Tek own the planet. Either you're happy with that (and Omni) or you're not (and thus Clan).

    So think of who was neutral and lived in USA during the Independence War.

    It is possible to be neutral to the conflict. Provisioner's example is a good one. The citizens of Jobe are another good example (we're just here to make stuff, folks. We'll sell to everyone).

    * * *

    Provisioner: what do you know that I don't about FC's future plans regarding neutrals? Go on- spill

    * * *

    And last point (to agree with Provisioner's post): Rubi-Ka is divided into two areas: territory belonging to the Clans, and territory belonging to Omni-Tek. There isn't any 'neutral' territory, so you're always on someone else's territory. Ergo, you shouldn't be surprised when you get shot even if you're just outside Borealis (Omni-Tek territory) or Newland (Clan territory).

    The closest you get to neutral territory is contested territory, so by that reasoning the neutral areas are 2HO and MMD. Making them 0% wouldn't bother me

  20. #80
    Switzerland would (in theory) fight to defend the territory which it owns. The neutrals on Rubi-Ka don't actually own any territory. It's all owned by Omni-Tek. If the neutrals fought back from an Omni "incursion" then what would they be fighting for?
    Clan fixer, Fourth Title

    Director of Information
    Analog Myth

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