The Neutral Manifesto

[Yarko]

The list goes on and on, but all of those people have it within their power and authority to speak for a greater whole of people, but not all of neutrality. Its absurd to say that somebody can negociate with -all of neutrality-. Its absurd because of this deversity, but people can negociate with larger organizations of people like organizations and cities. We do not have a Ross, we do not have a Raddiman, nor do we have a formal government or unifying body. Nobody can speak for all of neutrality.

All the leaders speak for their organizations and all the leaders together speak for the majority of neutrals. So, whatever the majority of leaders decide is the wish of the people. Isn’t that how democracy usually works?

If you for one moment believe that the ICC, the Clans or Omni-Tek will negotiate with each organization in turn, you might as well believe that aliens came here to pick flowers.

Just because we are not unified doesn't mean we can't work together, as we have many times before, there just needs to be a cause that we all (or most of us) agree on and want to pursue.

Hmm, yes, like a manifesto?

On the other hand if it presents us as we are maybe more people will understand how we are and how we operate, because if people like fisk and silverstone think we don't have opinians and don't care about anything they they obviously -do not- know us and what we do.

How could ever anyone understand us if we speak with hundreds of voices, if we don’t even understand ourselves?

[Berael]

In order:

No, thats how a republic works, not a democracy. In a democracy everybody has a say or a vote, not all organizations work like that.

Since you (Yarko) and I seem to be the only ones seriously arguing over the manifesto its hardly something that everybody aggrees on or has an interest in.

You do not have to understand what the hundreds of voices are saying to understand how they operate.

Historicaly neutrality has been defined by the clans and ot as people who have not picked a side in their conflict. This is the view that Fisk and Silverstone speak from. How would you propose to change their minds as to our lagitimacy in a way that all of us can agree on?

[Psikie]

Well the only real problem is the ambiguity of neutrality, which is our biggest benefit and weakness. Silverstone and Fisk don't like it because they are in rigid structured castes or factions. If we as neutrals actually try to do the same and factionize ourselves as the non- OT/Clan "faction" we would in a sense lose our neutrality and officially have a "side". Even though that side would be ours it isn't really in the sence of neutrality to arbitrarily decide that once you land on RK you are automatically part of this new third non- OT/Clan "faction". Then must decide if the non- OT/Clan "faction" is for you or choose to goto OT/Clan. It kinda takes the choice away from new commers and makes them in a "faction" as soon as they hit planetside. Now unity in the community is somethin i've always been for in neutrals. But all the different ideas and motives for neutrals makes this hard if not impossible. We have mercs, bandits, farmers, shopkeepers, vigilantes, as well as peacekeepers. So many different personalities, motives, and goals...
Unification is great and a unified front is even better. But maybe the concentration should be on finding like minded individuals for particular goals. Not a broad range of ideas, but specific goals always help to motivate cooperation amongst individuals. So my idea would be to start small and work up. Manifesto or not, it may not be very relevant. If ICC doesnt recognize the manifesto or at least parts of it, all this will be a moot point. Without ICC it is very unlikely OT will recognize it, clans certainly won't regardeless. Enforcement is another thing, under the best scenerio ICC and OT recognize the manifesto. Clans sneer at it and how do we defend our laws then?
I for one would welcome back Loren Warr, but thats just me. I don't care if he is neutral or Omni or clan as long as he/she is doing their job of keeping undesirables out of neutral cities. Its either that or WE neutrals must be able to defend what is ours.
Bottum line is manifesto or not neutrals are individuals and are gonna do what they want regardeless.

[Berael]

If ICC doesnt recognize the manifesto or at least parts of it, all this will be a moot point.

Even worse if the neutrals don't recognize this.

[Psikie]

I wouldn't "expect" any neutral to recognize the manifesto, as they shouldn't care. But if it's official I would expect them to adhere to it~

[Kari]

For something to be official, there first needs to be an office for it to issue from.

[Berael]

How would it ever be 'offical'?

[Yarko]

Well the only real problem is the ambiguity of neutrality, which is our biggest benefit and weakness. Silverstone and Fisk don't like it because they are in rigid structured castes or factions. If we as neutrals actually try to do the same and factionize ourselves as the non- OT/Clan "faction" we would in a sense lose our neutrality and officially have a "side". Even though that side would be ours it isn't really in the sence of neutrality to arbitrarily decide that once you land on RK you are automatically part of this new third non- OT/Clan "faction". Then must decide if the non- OT/Clan "faction" is for you or choose to goto OT/Clan. It kinda takes the choice away from new commers and makes them in a "faction" as soon as they hit planetside.

How I see it, it’s rather the other way around. We aren’t neutral in the true sense of the word. If we where, there would be a lot less problems. You can sell the idea of neutrality, but you can’t sell the idea of a couple of hordes of un-disciplined, unorganized and unreliable people
If you are neutral, you can discuss whether you are a faction or not. But since we aren’t neutral, even if that’s what we call ourselves, we are just a small faction, where even the non-Omni-Tek/Clan alignment is questionable.
If we where truly neutral, the choice would be easy; it’s either Omni-Tek, Clan or neutral.

Now unity in the community is somethin i've always been for in neutrals. But all the different ideas and motives for neutrals makes this hard if not impossible. We have mercs, bandits, farmers, shopkeepers, vigilantes, as well as peacekeepers. So many different personalities, motives, and goals...

This isn’t different for the Clans and Omni-Tek. With exception maybe for the mercenaries part, they have plenty of different views and motives too. Yet, they more or less manage to have a unity.

Unification is great and a unified front is even better. But maybe the concentration should be on finding like minded individuals for particular goals. Not a broad range of ideas, but specific goals always help to motivate cooperation amongst individuals. So my idea would be to start small and work up. Manifesto or not, it may not be very relevant. If ICC doesnt recognize the manifesto or at least parts of it, all this will be a moot point. Without ICC it is very unlikely OT will recognize it, clans certainly won't regardeless. Enforcement is another thing, under the best scenerio ICC and OT recognize the manifesto. Clans sneer at it and how do we defend our laws then?

There is never a guarantee for a self declared neutrality to work. But with it, there is a chance for recognition. Without, well, I doubt if a group of hooligans will ever get recognition, unless you’re willing to fight for each step you take.

Bottum line is manifesto or not neutrals are individuals and are gonna do what they want regardeless.

Bottom line is, if there are individuals who do what they want, regardless, then they might very well not be neutrals.

No, thats how a republic works, not a democracy. In a democracy everybody has a say or a vote, not all organizations work like that.

So a republic isn’t a democracy? Hmm, seems I need to consult my old books again.

Since you (Yarko) and I seem to be the only ones seriously arguing over the manifesto its hardly something that everybody aggrees on or has an interest in.

You could also turn that around and say that those who don’t discuss it, agree with it.

You do not have to understand what the hundreds of voices are saying to understand how they operate.

Not really. Let’s say you accept and offer from the Clans to attack an Omni-Tek notum mine, which in return has a contract with another ‘neutral’ organization to defend. Neutrals would be fighting neutrals, which I doubt would get us much understanding. The only thing factioned people understand is that you better not turn your back to a neutral.

Historicaly neutrality has been defined by the clans and ot as people who have not picked a side in their conflict. This is the view that Fisk and Silverstone speak from. How would you propose to change their minds as to our lagitimacy in a way that all of us can agree on?

I’m convinced that if we ascertain both factions of our neutrality, extreme views like those of the Sentinels will perish.

[Berael]

You could also turn that around and say that those who don’t discuss it, agree with it.

If you were paying attention to the community you would know that to be false. Please talk to Pyromanche about her view on the manifesto if you fail to see this.

The only thing factioned people understand is that you better not turn your back to a neutral.

Once again, if you were paying attention to the wider community of people then you would understand this to be false. I have people from both sides who come to me, a neutral, first for assembly of some of their most expensive and sensitive projects, and many times I need to leave to retrieve something they forgot. There is no qualms and no argument about it, they happily pay me at the end of it all.

I’m convinced that if we ascertain both factions of our neutrality, extreme views like those of the Sentinels will perish.

And what is convincing you of this? If we establish ourselves magicaly as true neutrals, we still have not picked a side. I don't see how this will change their opinion that we are worthless people -because- we have not picked a side.

[Yarko]

If you were paying attention to the community you would know that to be false. Please talk to Pyromanche about her view on the manifesto if you fail to see this.

Unless people are afraid to say what they think, why don’t they just put their opinion up here. After all, this was created to discuss the manifesto.

Once again, if you were paying attention to the wider community of people then you would understand this to be false. I have people from both sides who come to me, a neutral, first for assembly of some of their most expensive and sensitive projects, and many times I need to leave to retrieve something they forgot. There is no qualms and no argument about it, they happily pay me at the end of it all.

Do you honestly believe you are the only one who talks to people? There are ignorant ones on all sides, those who just don’t care who they do their business with. It’s not those who should concern us.

And what is convincing you of this? If we establish ourselves magicaly as true neutrals, we still have not picked a side. I don't see how this will change their opinion that we are worthless people -because- we have not picked a side.

“I thought they were trying to stay neutral, how can they stay neutral by taking millions of credits from Phillip Ross to fund their own guards who will be trained by Omni-Tek officers?”

“How can you so quickly forget how "neutrals" tried to keep us out of "their" land siding with Omni to do so.”

“appease? why don't neutrals stay neutral....not their business what we do in our cities....if it is safe from omnis, sentinels are doing a good job.”

“Now and days however most neutrals are just fighting for their piece of Rubi-ka and are no longer neutral.”

“As far as neutrals go, the word neutral is supposed to mean not involed or support of either side. Yet i see Nuetrals attacking clan or omni bases. What happened to the True Neutrals of Rubi-Ka.”

“Most neutrals have become a faction in the war themselves, by operating notum mines they can not longer claim to be just neutral and expect to be unharmed. Neutral in th last year has become a synonyme for mercenaries, thugs, criminals and others who want to reap fat profits from this war without getting their hands dirty. In fact, neutrals has become a catch-all flag for "others" some of them being truely neutral while others use that guise to reap their benefits from the war.”

“If the neutrals clean their house of these problems and really stay out of the war, they would be no problem to anyone and free to do whatever they want. As long as they continue to mess with all sides, they are considered hostiles.”

“The word >neutral< lost any real meaning maybe except one that you dont belong to omni or to the clans. Now days neutral only means a new faction. One whit its own goals. Profit just as the corps. main goal. By their independence they are trying to get more profits then they would get by taking sides. Silverstone is has a point when he is saying that neutrals are enemys.”

“Excuse me, but a lot of Neutrals have links to Omni-Teks. They are actually tied to Omni-Tek organisations, but still say "they are neutral". If you think us Clanners are the enemy then why dont you join Omni-Tek? Only thing your doing right now is changing the name of neutrals into "people who will be neutral whenever they choose to".
There are so many neutrals that can help Omni-Tek by gaining access to our cities. The only thing the Sentinels are doing is not alowing anyone else except for Clanners into tir.”

“If it would lead to less dead clanners by torturing one of these no good omni tek spying pests i see nothing wrong with it...”

“When Neutrals engaged themselves in the slaughter of innocent Clanners and our mining facilities.. Saying that these cowards have nothing to do with the conflict is repulsive.
No need to justify anything as these acts are apparently the only way to keep these cowards out of our streets and cities.”

“It has nothing to do with "Neutrals" being a pest in Tir they're a pest in general to cowardly to take a stance and therefor they bow down to Omni Tek (Neutral... HAH!) and work as spies for them, they repediately attack innocent clanners and our notum mines.. If it was up to me Neutrals should not be allowed in any of the Northern sectors whatsoever and should be shot back to Borealis reclaim on sight.
As you see in Tir this does work very well indeed as you see far less socalled self-proclaimed "Neutrals" in Tir than in Old Athen for instance.”

I could go on like this for a while…

Yes, I know, you can prove anything with quotes and I’m sure some can be found that say the opposite. But to say that the only reason why the factions don’t like us is because we don’t choose a side seems somewhat… unfounded.

[Psikie]

“As far as neutrals go, the word neutral is supposed to mean not involed or support of either side. Yet i see Nuetrals attacking clan or omni bases. What happened to the True Neutrals of Rubi-Ka.”

“Most neutrals have become a faction in the war themselves, by operating notum mines they can not longer claim to be just neutral and expect to be unharmed. Neutral in th last year has become a synonyme for mercenaries, thugs, criminals and others who want to reap fat profits from this war without getting their hands dirty. In fact, neutrals has become a catch-all flag for "others" some of them being truely neutral while others use that guise to reap their benefits from the war.”


You know this could go around and around for days like this... or it already has~ Points on all sides yea yea yea. So you want neutrals to be considered a third side/ faction ok so what. Neutral to me means not gettin into the clan/OT war. That doesn't mean we don't want to make a living on RK also. Unless you are sayin that bronto burgers in athens are supporters of clans for feeding them, or the the converse in Rome. This is ludacriss~ Everyone knows bronto burger is neutral and they deal with both sides equally. Same with Stoltz, or any other neutral vendors. So how can you not say they are supporting one side or the other by who they sell to more? But neutral orgs that do the same thing are?

Because they don't have notum towers? Well to my knowledge all neutral notum towers are taxed same as clan ones by Omni tek for exporting notum. I'd even go as far to say that neutrals owning towers is the epitome of NOT supporting either side, by depriving both sides of that towers resources.

Neutrals are supposed to deal with both sides as go betweens almost. If an org is treated handsomely more by one side, chances are they will deal with that side more. If they are treated bad... they probably will deal with the other side more. It doesn't mean they are on that side or that they won't deal with the other. It's a preference of treatment or cash. Plain simple economics there.

If you are doing laundry and have room for either your brother or sister's laundry to go with yours, you are going to wash whoever's been nicer to you or pays you more.

[Yarko]

I couldn’t agree more Psikie. Now what are you saying that the manifesto doesn’t or vice versa?

[Boltgun]

The trouble here is that a lot of sided consider their conflict as absolute and will go as far as attacking neutrals for our ressources or for whatever reasons. And we end up fighting sides for our own rights to live here and do business.
And a lot won't let that go like if it didn't happen, and tensions remains leading to more conflicts neutral/sided.
On top of that many live of mercenary job, and to be honest a lot of ressources that helped to defend ourselves came from that. And for some, like myself, it have been the only way to live because that's pretty much what their skills are.

This is involvements to the conflict, what we should know is what involvement doesn't make you neutral. One thing to remember is that you choose to be neut and so you decide to not support a side in the conflict and remain a balance with yourself, it should only make you wanted and outcast anyway.

As for towers, when they opened some neutrals took a few spots. Then Omnis treid to take them, then clanners tried to take them, then neutrals didn't take this aggression well. Just let the sided whine because everything going there is neutrals trying to do their stuff according the ICC regulations... as long as it's not to give advantages to OMni Tek or the clan directly.

Edit : On the other hand we can't approve a "kill all sides" approach.

[Berael]

I consider myself and neutrality as a whole outside of the conflict between OT and the Clans, not in the middle of it. To that end, I don't care about who gets aid or if one side is balanced or not with the other because the conflict doesn't ultimately matter. Now that Notum is here people are going to fight over it, and if its not the Clans or Omni-Tek it will be somebody else. If somebody steps on my toes I don't treat them well, if somebody treats me well I do the same for them.

I don't know about the rest of you, but when I think about what matters in this world I don't first think about whether or not i'm helping one side or another, I think about my friends and myself. To me worrying about if you have helped one side or another too much is focusing too much on the conflict itself, and less on the people that really matter: the neutrals.

[enrima]

Most of the neutral organizations operating in the Notum wars are insanely infiltrated by Omni tek transfuges, everyone know that. The Serpents, White window and co killing Clans at will in the sillage of Orbitek or Sbi. And the worst part is in the last months they managed to drag some of the most respectable neutral clans in that low-intensity war.

Tell me how come you can maintain an "impartial attitude towards Omni tek and the Clans" when I see neutral bases in Avalon, Athen shire, The longuest road, Wailing wastes etc..
That you do expell foreigners off neutral territories as the ones stated by the ICC is fine. That you make settlements anywhere else and mainly in the north is an aggressive posture and is treated as such.

This manifesto had a true reality back few years ago. Where I live ((Atlantean)), when I see all the co-operation between OT and Neutrals (in large-scale events and such), 29480 is the year where Neutrals became Omnis

[Dabblez]

Enrima,

If Clanners observe today a greater amount of collaboration between Neutral and Omni's, they have only themsleves to blame. Most Neutrals I know would want nothing more than to keep both sides at an equal distance, but circumstances and history have a way of getting in the way.

Notum Wars
Up to the start of the Notum Wars, relations between Neutrals and Clan were good, probably better than between Omni and Neutrals. Many Clan orgs had "Neutral friendly" clauses in their charters.

Things turned sour when Neutrals realised these clauses were not worth the paper they were written on. The geography of Rubi-Ka, more than ideology, has put Clan and Neutrals on collision course over the control of mines, reuslting in Clan vs Neutral tower fights outnumbering Omni vs Neutral ones by 3-1 even 4-1.

Searching through the archives you can actually see how the unholy mess unfolded.

CLICKY 1
CLICKY 2
CLICKY 3


Tir
The veterans on Rubi-Ka will remember a time when Neutrals were free to visit Tir, just like any other Clan or Omni town. Then one day the Sentinels took over and simply banned Neutral from Tir on pain of death. This was totally unprovoked and unquestionably a slap in the face to all Neutrals.

Newer Neutral settlers may have not lived through the there traumatic events. But they do know that the Sentinels, one of the most popular and powerful of all Clans, the guys in control of the Clans notional capitol, see the Neutrals as enemies and well, react accordlingly.

But you know all this Enrima. Your own Clan, First Light, despite having "Neutral friendly" clauses in its charter, nonetheless sided with Silverstone and the Sentinels in the Council of Truth.

For as long as Neutrals see other Clanner support the Sentinels, they have every right to be diffident of the Clans. Clean up your own house and in time things will improve.

Regards,

Savoy

[Berael]

It should also be noted that even though some of us work with OT heavily, some of us just don't have to actualy be in bed with omni to not like the clans. Estimohn didn't like OT but lived with them, but he just absolutely dispised the clans for some reason. I think it was being ganked too many times got to his head, and being disoriented when he appeared back in borealis and his NCU told him time after time "hey some clanner just shot you! That stinks!"

Once again i'm going to say: Participating in the Notum Wars is not an indicator of participation to a 'side'. Anybody can mine notum, even the 10,000 intergalatic corperations from off world. Everybody has to sell to OT though, even the clans, if they want the stuff distributed.

[Boltgun]

You know if many clans didn't griefed us, banned us from your raids, attacked our towers without provoke and just been a general ass to us...
And even the so called "neutral friendly" orgs hide behind Silverstone when you are in trouble depise your smiles and good intentions. Who is the spineless fence sitter then ?

The situation is that we mostly have to tag along with a sided group to contribute in the outzone, and since clans just reject us we only have to side with omni. I don't really enjoy their presence but they are the only ones I can get trough battlefields with.

I'm all for peace between neutrals and the clanners, I even find clanners ideas and livestyle more enjoyable. But we're not really the ones that led to this situation, and you have a pretty big step to take on our direction.

That said getting omni help for towers is an error imo. And giving omni help to get them towers is worse.

[enrima]

I have no problems to see Neutrals attack Clans or dispise them. Just assume it and don't hide under excuses, motivations and what not. The "blame the society" and such are no longuer valable. You want kill Clans, kill so. You want to be clan friendly, evacuate the clan lands. But you can't ask for a special status, impartiality and whatnot.

Once again i'm going to say: Participating in the Notum Wars is not an indicator of participation to a 'side'. Anybody can mine notum, even the 10,000 intergalatic corperations from off world. Everybody has to sell to OT though, even the clans, if they want the stuff distributed.

Hell you're 100% right. Having a single Neutral base in Clan lands without a formal agreement is a definitive indicator tho.

The dilemma of Neutrals is there is no place for them in the adversity. Their identity will eventually be swallowed by the dominant force they fight along with. In this case, Omni tek. And that would be the same if they were pro Clans.

In a way, the fact that Clans in the last years had become more radical and impacted this situation (as you keep saying), pushing Neutrals to dislike us and throwing them in Omni's arms lead to a positive issue :
there is two sides. Simple. Fair and square.

So if this manifesto can maintain your schizophrenia and make you believe you're _still_ unique and a faction of your own, sure go ahead, it hurts no one.
Best in my humble opinion would be to assume your real status tho. You can't ask to be both referee and one of the teams on the pitch.

[Kari]

Hell you're 100% right. Having a single Neutral base in Clan lands without a formal agreement is a definitive indicator tho.

Ah yes, and Mr Silverstone's merry little elves would sign any such agreement with a large smile, and a warm handshake.

Like Enrima I am wondering about the point of this manifesto, because frankly I don't care if Silverstone understands me or not; it's not going to change his ( and the Council's ) opinions of me, and I really couldn't care less what he thinks. I meet individual clanners every day and get on with them fine, and that's all the politics I need. I meet individual OT members every day too and get on with them fine as well, and frankly my opinion of Zora is about the same as my opinion of the clan council. So yeah, you could call me neutral, if a balanced dislike of both sides' leaderships is neutral.

So if this manifesto can maintain your schizophrenia and make you believe you're _still_ unique and a faction of your own, sure go ahead, it hurts no one.

Oh, I'm a faction now? frankly I thought I was just me, but I guess if someone so entrenched in "us and them" mentality says I'm one of "them", then it must be true. You know, the more philosophy I discuss with omnis & clans, the less differences I see between them.