Evades and critting aimed shots

[Mamman]

Everyone knows that AS doesn't care about evades when chance to hit is determined and thus, it never misses. But does it take AR vs evades into account when determining if the AS is a normal or a critical hit or is this 100% decided by your crit increase gear vs your targets crit reduce gear?

[Kinkstaah]

This, while a good question, is almost impossible to test.

[Seventh]

This, while a good question, is almost impossible to test.

What he said though considering sinse i put my spirit shroud on i pretty much never get high ASs from support profs (=lower AR then my evades) and im pretty sure they can get more then 2% pvp crit chanse, evades vs AR does had effect on AS crit chanse.

[Perin]

I think Evades/Crit Res does have effect upon if AS crits or not, even though they don't matter for landing obviously.

Though this is pretty much impossible to test, I'm not sure if it's due to AC (Which actually I don't think AS is dependant upon AC in pvp or pvm at all, someone correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm really not sure.) but if AS does drop in damage due to AC, then it's explained why you can almost always cap 13k hits against low level things, but then as you move higher in SL (Inferno Missions mainly what I'm thinking here.) It's harder and harder to cap your AS, if AC matters, that explains it, but if ACs don't matter, then I think it's more the evades/crit resistance preventing AS from critting so badly as it does against weaker mobs (Remember that SL mobs, don't seem to have very large evades, but it's fairly hard to crit them, meaning it seems as if they have a high crit resist.)

Example: Backyard, I can cap AS probabally about 9 out of 10 tries, but on that one that isn't cap it's usually around 12k. While in Inferno 218 Medium missions, my AS is usually around 8k-12k damage, rarely 13k unless the mob is orange or a spirit. This is with 2100-ish AS using the Kyr'Ozch Silenced Rifle Type 3

[Mamman]

To test this effectively it would be best to use a really low QL rifle and preferrably no gear that adds to crits, as with a higher QL rifle you can cap hits even if the AS isn't critting.
That should make for some good difference between low and high evade targets if evades matter at all.

[Perin]

Problem there is the huge range of damage that AS can hit for... Even with a crappy rifle and no crit gear on, someone with 2k+ AS can still deal massive damage with it, and there is no way to reduce your own crit landing % which there is a default chance to do so even on all level 1 characters. I believe even if AS doesn't crit, when you have high AS skill you'll still do a large amount of damage, more damage than someone lower using the same rifle at least..

Also it's quite hard to test what has high evades and what doesn't have high evades, pvp you have the problem of cap hits being much lower than pvm cap hits.

And as lowbie agent who equips a good rifle (Gripo ql50 at level 25-30 or so as an agent.) then go around and AS mobs, you'll notice yourseld doing large damage AS (Relative to mob HP), even though Gripo isn't that great of a gun compared to much higher guns... Though gripo is still one of my favorite rifles hehe

[Mamman]

Since AS doesn't care about ACs (I believe this is true), there shouldn't be a huge "range" of damage, all hits should be a multiple of the same base damage.

I'll give an example.

- Base max dmg hit with your weapon is 100 damage
- Base crit with the same weapon is hopefully something that doesn't add up to even 100s when multiplied, lets say it's 199 dmg.
- Your AS skill gives a multiplier of 1-4

This would mean the only numbers you can AS for will be
100, 199, 200, 300, 398, 400, 597, 796.

With conditions like that it should be easy enough to test.
On a level 1 mob crit rate with normal shots is 100%ish so should be easy enough to see over a series of shots if the crits is a factor of your the base chance to crit (not even sure such a thing really exist) or if its the massive difference in AR vs evades.

[Perin]

Well I'm pretty sure that even with a low QL gun, a high level agent can do fairly large AS damage on backyard mobs.

I'm actually going to go log my agent and get my ql50 gripo out to test it and see how much I end up doing in the backyard.

Will update this post shortly with AS numbers....

Fired 20 Aimedshots, here is my results in spam form:

01. You hit 34-I Helper for 11540 points of Aimed Shot damage.
02. You hit Biofreak Carcass for 5264 points of Aimed Shot damage.
03. You hit Biofreak Carcass for 3948 points of Aimed Shot damage.
04. You hit 34-I Helper for 6580 points of Aimed Shot damage.
05. You hit Leet for 2632 points of Aimed Shot damage. You hit Leet for 1316 points of projectile damage.Critical hit!
06. You hit Biofreak Carcass for 3948 points of Aimed Shot damage.
07. You hit Biofreak Carcass for 5264 points of Aimed Shot damage.
08. You hit Rollerrat for 3948 points of Aimed Shot damage.
09. You hit Leet for 2632 points of Aimed Shot damage.
10. You hit Clawfinger Bully for 6580 points of Aimed Shot damage.
11. You hit Biofreak Carcass for 7896 points of Aimed Shot damage.
12. You hit Clawfinger Bully for 850 points of Aimed Shot damage.
13. You hit Biofreak Carcass for 5264 points of Aimed Shot damage.
14. You hit Biofreak Carcass for 6580 points of Aimed Shot damage.
15. You hit Biofreak Cadaver for 3948 points of Aimed Shot damage. You hit Biofreak Cadaver for 1316 points of projectile damage.Critical hit!
16. You hit Biofreak Cadaver for 5264 points of Aimed Shot damage.
17. You hit Biofreak Cadaver for 11869 points of Aimed Shot damage.
18. You hit 34-I Helper for 12856 points of Aimed Shot damage.
19. You hit Diseased Rollerrat for 11869 points of Aimed Shot damage.
20. You hit Clawfinger Bully for 5264 points of Aimed Shot damage.

Test was done using: http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=123978 Gripo-Com AKR 1K21 ql50 (max ql)

Buffs were: Composites 8hr, nothing else. I also took off my ql250 VE Scope, so absolutly no additional % Crit than what FC gives me as base.

Also notice somehow there were 2 mobs that actually outlived the Aimedshot, funky...

Range of damage... 850 - 12856 not a huge range of damage????? O_o

1657 Rifle
1675 Aimedshot

[Mamman]

Like I said, the damage range is unimportant as long as you don't go above 13k as there's only a very few numbers within that range you can actually hit for.

2632, 3948, 5264, 6580, 7896 are all exact multipliers of your critical hit of 1316.
Above 10k damage AS seems to be nerfed in damage with 75% as the difference between your hits is exactly 25% of a critical hit. I know full auto damage is also nerfed above 10k so it seems logical.
This means you had 95% crit rate on these mobs without using any crit gear.

Unless you had 0 add dmg at the testing time your numbers also effectively kills the myth that add damage is added last of all in an AS calculation. Your regular hit/crit including add dmg is multiplied and last of all dmg reduction after 10k is applied.

My question has been answered, thank you

[Sikozu]

Some weird results...

850 must be a non-crit, and tough to test normal damage on backyard mobs without knowing how much +damage you get from equipment.

11869=9.019*crit: 9*crit would be 11844 damage, regular crits being reduced a little by ac could explain this, but then that should be noticable on the lower damage aimed shots as well. Seems unlikely that you would get this high damage without critting too since the Gripo has lousy regular damage.

11540=8.7689969604863221884498480243161*crit
12856=9.7689969604863221884498480243161*crit

Compare the digits on those last two modifiers. Doesn't seem random to me. I'm guessing the as formula gets a little more complex at higher modifiers, but funny how it still increases with an increment of 1.

[Zoolander]

actually you have 3% from perks (6% if you have sharpshooter)

[Kinkstaah]

Since AS doesn't care about ACs (I believe this is true), there shouldn't be a huge "range" of damage, all hits should be a multiple of the same base damage.

I'll give an example.

- Base max dmg hit with your weapon is 100 damage
- Base crit with the same weapon is hopefully something that doesn't add up to even 100s when multiplied, lets say it's 199 dmg.
- Your AS skill gives a multiplier of 1-4

This would mean the only numbers you can AS for will be
100, 199, 200, 300, 398, 400, 597, 796.

With conditions like that it should be easy enough to test.
On a level 1 mob crit rate with normal shots is 100%ish so should be easy enough to see over a series of shots if the crits is a factor of your the base chance to crit (not even sure such a thing really exist) or if its the massive difference in AR vs evades.

This would be the only way to test it, but why use theory when you can use practice? Most of the time your AS will cap on Fixers/MA's anyway. Does there need to be much thought in that?

There are times I have capped MA's with the startup rifle.

I think AS has a hidden bonus to crit anyway, which does go up with your crit chance, I would say your crit chance definately affects it. (concentration, for example)

Therefore I'd say it *probably* does follow the crit/hit rules that other attacks do, meaning critical decrease, critical increase and vast differences in evades matter, but in the end the results dont seem to really make much difference.

[Mamman]

Look at it this way Sikozu

If the end value is above 10k you cannot simply divide your damage with your crit and get the multiplier, since damage reduction applies to only a part of the final damage.
The 12856 hit is actually 4 multipliers higher than the 11540 one. But since it's above 10k it only counts for as much as a 1x increase would below 10k.

Critical hit = 1316
12856-11540 = 1316
11869-11540 = 329
1316 * 0.25 = 329

[Prion]

I always thought AS damage was nerfed past 10k, like full auto. I remember testing in the arena on an enfo with 30k HP, and it was hard to pull an AS over 10-11k.

[Mamman]

I'm still interested in knowing if this reduction starts at 10k or 5k in pvp. I was always under the impression that the halved pvp damage was applied as one of the last steps in damage calculations.

[Perin]

First thing though, remember these mobs have like 0 for evades, and 0 for crit resistance, so OF COURSE crits will happen, and no one ever said that AS always crits for the same multiplier against the same mob or type of mob, meaning that you won't get just the one number, you'll get a variety of numbers, though they'll be off the multiplier. Personally I still think evades/crit resist DOES effect it, in pvp it's easier to cap AS damage as I said before, since in pvp even with evades and crit resist, getting 40% or 28% (with rrfe on) of someone's health is not that hard, for an agent, however support professions with much lower AS skill, probabally much harder to cap with, and I'm pretty certain that evades/crit res do factor in there, as well as against higher level mobs with large evades or such.. Though I do think the Crit Decrease modifier is MUCH more effective than the evades in preventing a high damage critical AS, like with how SL mobs make my Kyr hit for 8k-12k. While with many other mobs... well I just get 13k almost every time.

Also with SL mobs, especially sided, I think that people do believe that they have a high Crit Decrease mod on them, because even when using Gnat's you won't crit every since hit, with Concentration, well yeah you always crit pretty much every hit there, because it's just so huge of a boost, that it doesn't matter. But even though we can't crit so easily, but we have much more AR than support professions who can still hit these mobs while having 50%-75% of our AR, and we can't crit, logic tells us there is something wrong here, and our only solution is crit decrease.

I had +38 projectile damage. (including symbs) and +90 from Black Ops 10, so +128 projectile damage. (Didn't have any damage buffs running at all either.)

And yes I also had +3% crit from perks that I forgot about, but find me an agent who can test it without those 3% crit from perks who isn't in the middle of a giant reperking.

Even if you take away the add damage I had, and take away the number listed as crit damage on the gun, it doesn't go down to 850 damage, it goes to 934, so someone explain that one please?? How can an Aimedshot hit below regular max damage on mobs that have 0evade 0ac and not to mention hit below regular max, but also some random number between min and max that makes no sense. Unless it's due to AR, because Gripo has a nice mbs of 1005, but that's hard to say yes or no to.

Went back in to backyard, hit a bunch more hits, could not find out regular damage due to so easily critting, maybe I'll try again later on, but chances are I won't find it..

Did find this little oddity though:
You hit Fresh Highwayman for 1185 points of projectile damage.Critical hit!
Not sure how that happened, since all the other crits through probabally almost 200 bullets, hit for the usual 1316 crit.

Did a couple more aimedshots, and came up with more numbers that happened to not be the same as the ones I got before (More AS were shot than are listed here, only listing the ones that are different this time.)

You hit Biofreak Cadaver for 12198 points of Aimed Shot damage.
You hit 34-I Helper for 13000 points of Aimed Shot damage. <-- yes it's real
You hit Clawfinger Bully for 12527 points of Aimed Shot damage.
You hit Leet for 10922 points of Aimed Shot damage.
You hit Biofreak Carcass for 10264 points of Aimed Shot damage.
You hit 34-I Helper for 9212 points of Aimed Shot damage. <-- crit x7 multiplier

I also think I have something that shows proof of evades possibly effecting it...

You hit Guard for 3400 points of Aimed Shot damage.
You hit Guard for 1316 points of projectile damage.Critical hit!
I also did a regular damage of 155-417, so no there is really not saying that he has a huge amount of ACs here, considering the min of the gun is also 5.
Explain exact same crit number, with a different AS damage?? Me thinks there's some evades at work, or something at least!!!

[Kinkstaah]

I always thought AS damage was nerfed past 10k, like full auto. I remember testing in the arena on an enfo with 30k HP, and it was hard to pull an AS over 10-11k.

Well this is simply because with 30K, 40% is 12,000.

Remember, you're not trying to hit a 13K AS in pvp, you're trying to hit 26K, which is tougher. Your 13K AS's in PVE are basically anything over 6500 in pvp, which you will notice on mr 30K enforcer to be quite a lot.

[Prion]

He had over 35k actually because he was using the 2nd SL ess. My bad. But anyway, it was not like I was using a perennium or anything. I tried supernova (when I had assault rifle raised) and a QL 300 Pinpoint Rifle a lot of times, and I think the best I did was near 12k I believe. Most of the ones over 10k were just barely over it.

It would go something like this...AS for 10k, 8, 10.5k, 6k, 10.5k.. etc. There seemed to be a limiting factor past 10k from what I noticed.

[Kinkstaah]

Yes, but keep in mind thats a limiting factor of shots that are actually over 20K, not 10k.

[Tarradax]

Small observation from a little agent, hunting Adonis Hexx:
My lowest AS (After over an hour of killing) was about 6k, with most shots landing in the 8-10k mark.
With FP:Enfo and Brave Challenger to Behemoth my lowest AS was 8k or so, with alot more shots hitting the 10k+ mark, and quite alot of 13k shots.

So, same results as the AS'ing a guard... Which might prove that Def.Mods have an effect on AS damage... Anyone tried consistent AS-ing of fixers with the defensive/deceptive stance specials?