The sheer difficulty

[Shion]

I think over and above all else it's the difficulty that needs SEVERE tweaking. The npc enemies, especially 'monster' types are overwhelmingly powerful compared to us. They have rediculessly more hp, their minimum damage rises as it's supposed to (whereas ours doesn't versus npcs for SOME reason) they cast nanos far higher than is reasonable, their attack skills are all very high, as are their defencive skills - including parry even with ranged enemies (whereas I, the enforcer, seem incapable of parrying, although my blows are parried multiple times each fight) I don't even need to get into moster types with their exotic damages and so forth. Furthermore the credits we get from missions and enemies isn't nearly enough to keep up our nanos, weapons, armor, and implants that need to all be very high quality or we die due to the difficulty (and I am talking about 'average' 50% difficulty missions)

The stores rarely carry what we need, and charge insane rates for things, and going with the assumption they sell us things for the value then the price they give us for the stuff we sell to them is an absurd less than 1%, nanos cost tons, as do implants, aswell as armor (which is not really feasible to purchase as we can't get full suits, and the prices are of such magnitude we could never keep up anyway)

The question is why, why does it have to be so annoyingly and unfairly difficult? Why can't the npc's use SIMILAR templates to our own, and have like LESS hp as we take on missions full of them as a single person (who's generally under-equipped unless he has higher up friends or characters - which makes the game almost an entirely different experience) Why can't the shops give us more for our goods, and carry reasonable selections of reasonably priced items? Why do maximum difficulty solo missions even exist?? (it's a SOLO mission, but NO ONE can come even CLOSE to completing one) I have never understood why so many games want to make things so unfair against the players when it just annoys us and ruins alot of the fun of the game. yeah, some want challenge, well we have missions in AO, with a difficulty slider, anyone who wanted a damn challenge should just be able to raise it and it all works like that. But they can't, because it's virtually impossible for most to do over 50% difficulty missions. And the people who havn't maximized their character through various templates, styles, breeds, etc. eventually just get fed up and leave, which is why the ratio of high level people to lower level people is so extreme.

I think these are the things that should be looked into being changed first. Who agrees with me? Whoever does, please please back me, and express your discontent with this unfairness (in as civilized a manner as possible ^^) because it seems whenever it's brought up on the boards it's just forgotten and everything continues the same, which robs this game of the greater potential it has and is being wasted by numbers that were poorly thought out in the beginning. That's all,
thanks anyone who read.

-Shion

[____________IronTide]

*shrug* to each his own. I got this email from one Marlen McFarben, an ex-bossmob. Why he sent it to me instead of the right address, I'll never know.

-------
Dear Funcom

I think over and above all else it's the difficulty that needs SEVERE tweaking. The pc groups, especially those with 'healer' and 'tanker' types are overwhelmingly powerful compared to us. They have rediculessly more hp, their minimum damage rises as it's supposed to (due to fixer/adv buffs and rings) they cast nanos far higher than is reasonable (thanks to the ubiqitous MP), their attack skills are all very high, as are their defencive skills - such as buckets and buckets and buckets of healing. I don't even need to get into pet/nuker types with their extra sources of damage. Furthermore the cooperation from their so called 'orgs' keeps them up on their nanos, weapons, armor, and implants that need to all be very high quality (and I am talking about 'hard' 80% or 100% difficulty missions)

Since everything is available as a mission reward/team boss loot, there groups will just not leave us alone and continue to unfairly grind us into dust.

The question is why, why does it have to be so annoyingly and unfairly difficult? Why can't we use SIMILAR templates to them, and have like infinite healing and mezzing as we take on groups as a single mob (groups which are generally well-equipped unless they are complete morons and anti-social scum - which makes the game almost an entirely different experience). Please take away maximum difficulty solo missions as they allow blitzers to produce goods for their org that always spell our doom. I have never understood why so many games want to make things so unfair against the mobs when it just annoys us and ruins alot of the fun of the game.

I think these are the things that should be looked into being changed first. Who agrees with me? Whoever does, please please back me, and express your discontent with this unfairness (in as civilized a manner as possible ^^) because it seems whenever it's brought up on the boards it's just forgotten and everything continues the same, which robs this game of the greater potential it has and is being wasted by numbers that were poorly thought out in the beginning. That's all,
thanks anyone who read.
----------


Well, there you have it. I don't completely agree with him, but I see his point.

[_______________Ylara]

I'll agree on the fact that some mobs are ridiculously hard. (I remember doing a boss mob in a full team and hardly denting it. We were all lvl 140+ MAs and doing nothing but tickle him. The joke was that he would be the first mob ever that we got to Dimach twice).

However, I do not think that mobs need their hps cut severely, and certainly not down to player lvls. To be honest with you, we would flatten them in no time. Atm my ma has some 4000 hps... with a good brawl and hit I do in excess of 4k damage. The mob wouldn't stand a chance and quite frankly if there is no challenge or risk there is no fun in it either, in my humble opinion.

Ylara

Ps. I do like the above answer. ~Grins~

[MaDezzie]

"The npc enemies, especially 'monster' types are overwhelmingly powerful compared to us."

Mobs don't hit title level skill caps like we do. So while our attack skills, nano skills, whathaveyou, are stagnating, mob skills keep rising. This is why you see a level 50 adventurer mob wearing a 50pt damage shield. This is why you see a level 100 trader mob using a ransack more powerful then yours. This is why they hit you faster then you sometimes hit them. This is most noticable after level 125 when our skill caps last longer (I wish they would raise these caps for higher levels, its ridiculous that I have to wait till level 200 to self-cast a ql 170 nano). If, mobs were to follow our skill cap rules, and only be proficient in those skills we, as players, are proficient in, I think it would be more balanced. For example, why does an even conned soldier mob parry my attacks more then an even conned MA mob? Makes no sense that the soldier (who is supposed to be one of the worst melee classes) has such a high parry ability.

"I don't even need to get into moster types with their exotic damages and so forth."

Non-human mobs, in general, are more powerful then human mobs. I don't know why they were tweaked and buffed up, but it discourages outdoor hunting even more, and needs to be changed. It ridiculous that a green monster gives me more of a challenge then an orange human mob.

"Furthermore the credits we get from missions and enemies isn't nearly enough to keep up our nanos, weapons, armor, and implants that need to all be very high quality or we die due to the difficulty (and I am talking about 'average' 50% difficulty missions)"

In lower levels (pre level 100), you level so fast, that it seems like money is running very thin and is hard to save up since you're spending it all on equipment to match your level. Once you get past level 100, money isn't an issue I promise you. After that, the only items you'll be buying from shops are maybe a few nanos and treatment kits/nano rechargers. Everything else will have to be found from missions or bought from other players. Since there are no money sinks in the high level game, you will just rack up the credits and your pockets will be plenty weighed down. If missions are too hard for you solo, by all means get yourself in a guild. Yes, you can do solo play in AO, but it IS an MMORPG meaning the other players are there for a reason, to interact with them. If you want the best equipment 24/7, team up with people that want the same and go get it together.

"The stores rarely carry what we need, and charge insane rates for things, and going with the assumption they sell us things for the value then the price they give us for the stuff we sell to them is an absurd less than 1%, nanos cost tons, as do implants, aswell as armor"

Shop stock rotation has been complained about again and again. Every patch that comes out somehow 'breaks' them and certain items won't spawn that once did. Resale value is poor in lower levels, but compared to the money you make later you'll see why. My advice to you now is buff up your comp lit before selling and buying, higher comp lit means higher resale value and cheaper prices from shops. Loot absolutely everything in your solo missions, and only buy equipment from a shop as a last resort if you can't find it cheaper off another player or in a mission. Get ClickSaver to locate that item in a mission and save time.

-Dez

[Shion]

One, this post isn't really for martial artists or meta-pyshicists *snickers*

secondly, it says that psychology is the skill for barter. Is that just an out and out mistruth? Or is that like bartering with the... minimal amount of npc shop keeps and comp lit. is for "bartering" with the... terminal?

although (at "lower" levels at least) us fighter-types sure don't have any points to spare for much comp lit. anyway.

[Tetra]

Originally posted by Shion
secondly, it says that psychology is the skill for barter. Is that just an out and out mistruth? Or is that like bartering with the... minimal amount of npc shop keeps and comp lit. is for "bartering" with the... terminal?

assuming psych works yes that is how it's supposed to be, psych for human shops complit for the rest

[engelstein]

The converse of hitpoints? Damage. Sure, give a level 150 mob only 5k HP. Do you *really* want to take on a level 150 enf mob that will essence, mongo, rage, challenger, and then flurry? Do you *really* think everyone in the group could survive this?

Think about the consequences of what you propose. Mobs fill their role as exp bags. Frankly, this is what I want from a mission: run around with people I like, watching my numbers go up and maybe getting some cool loot. I don't want it to be stressful. I don't *want* a chance of death. I want my numbers to go up.

[Shion]

As an atrox enforcer I find myself dying a fair bit actually, which is what annoys me so much. And I'm sure the first thing that'll come up is if I'm a bad player. Well, I don't think so, and as for equipment, at level 43 I've got dual rider excecutioners over 10 ql levels higher than my level, full organic armor around my level, 2 rings of power-melee, 2 & 5, a full set of level 30 implants (which those themselves I couldn't even afford if not for my higher level character) max my brawl, the 1h edged, heavy weapons, multi-melee, keeping the nanos as high as possible, same with comp lit and evades, maxed str/agl/sta, but soloing even simple missions I still have problems. And yes, I do pull mobs to fight them one on one every chance I have.
I just think their stats and hps and massive unatainable skill/nano levels are way too much, and make soloing rediculess sometimes.

Grouping IS a different story, perhaps I should've specified. But, I sure as hell can't always find a group, guild members aren't always on/available/similar levels, and often their just aren't appropriate level people around, let alone willing. And I hate (I emphasize hate) standing around for long periods of time doing nothing because soloing is so hard and unrewarding however you can'y find a group. I mean, just the other day I was trying to get a group, myself (the level 43 atrox enforcer) and a level 47 solitus docter (a good base for a team as far as I think) but, during that half-hour we waited around only 2 other level 40's came by Tir, one logged before we could ask, and the other didn't reply, and no low 50's or high 30's presented themselves either. I think that covers the point well enough.

I don't get it though, everyone i know and talk to irl agrees with me that the enemies should be of a similar template and easier, but then in here...

-Shion

[_____________Condaan]

If you're level ~40 wearing level 30 implants, you don't need to look any farther to figure out how to increase your power in relation to the mobs. At level 40, you can easily get into ql70 implants, and more likely ql90.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be combative etc., but I've never found even con mobs to be terribly out of whack power wise (mission mobs that is). Yes, I'm an MA, but I also was an MA when we hit for min damage all the time, and even then I could take out oranges.

Condaan
Master 10th Dan
TGL

PS. If you have money issues, blitz a few missions...most classes can do it to one extent or another.

[Blackwing]

at start as well.

heck keeping all my alts going i am broke now!

but what you are describing is mostly an equipment problem.

as a front line fighter you should have at least 20 times your level in the 3 acs shown in the status window.

cant comment on the weapons much since 1he is semi rare you will have to trust clicksaver to get better ones.

finally yes i am afraid you will need new implants.

dont go crazy about equipment but the key in ao is to buy as little as possible and get your stuff from missions.

also get on as many buffs and implants as you can and then equip your gear. when you can equip unequip your items without buffing like a madman you are a) high level or b) reaching a critical level on your equipments effectiveness.

[Shion]

It's pretty clear it's unbalanced if we need such advanced equipment. But, what I'd like to know is how, if everyone keeps saying to just get your stuff from missions, are we supposed to get oe stuff when we can't do equal level missions? And quality 70 implants? HA! it cost me like 200k to get my level 30's, I couldn't even come close to getting quality 70's, like I said, it all comes down to if higher up people are supporting you or not, which isn't right.

(btw, I played a MA aswell, and well... I got by reasonably well even without great implants or armor also. But I'm not on the topic of certain classes unfair advantages over other ones here >

Furthermore, I don't use clicksaver, (originally I was under the impression the use of 3rd party programs is prohibited. *well, yes, that IS the rule, but they offer you the damn clikcsaver address in-game from helpbot, so I guess it's not a 'REAL' rule*) but, it just runs way way too laggy when windowed on my computer, so I can't make use of it. I still don't think we should have to rely on mission rewards so much. Remember other games? Ya know, need equipment, go to the equipment store... buy what you need for a somewhat reasonable price, MATCHING ARMOR?

These are how I think things should work, to be able to get by without high level characters carrying you and time spent with 3rd party utilities to get items from missions as the prices in the shops are insane. I really don't see why more people don't agree. *shrugs*

-Shion
(opifex martial artist-43, solitus fixer-36, solitus soldier-54, atrox enforcer-43, solitus adventurer-38, and various other abandoned 10's and 15's aswell as the trader who couldn't make it passed 7th)

[Bionitrous]

The MOb's you face are ridiculously stupid and easy to kill. You'll find that out soon enough. This is about the easiest and newb-friendly game out there if you take time to research the game and develop/equip your character properly.

I'll give that the 'monster' MOb's are vastly more difficult per con-level than humanoids.

That's why everyone avoids them. Use the 'order' setting on missions and don't hunt outdoors unless in a group.

Want to bring a collective 'groan ...' to a high level mission group. Bring them to a mission in Broken Shores and find Beetles in it.

Biggest problem for most new players is outleveling their equipment and implants. Work the trade channels or simply run through 5 missions solo with nothing but greens and sell all the loot off the kills.

[Shion]

Thanks for your opinion, but I disagree.
I've played plenty of other online games, and I don't consider this the easiest or 'newb friendly' one. But then, I do beleive it was just quoted from funcom, when they changed the start-up treatment kits, that many players found starting in this game considerably difficult.
And, I have researched the game, and classes, and equipped as best I can, all the info can be found through-out this thread if you care to tell me what I'm doing wrong.


-Shion

[_______________Morph]

From reading your posts it sounds like the problem resides with you not the game. First off your equipment is way too low for your level. As an enforcer, you should easily, be able to solo missions of 50% difficulty +1 or even +2 difficulty notches until around lvl100. Your implants should be, as stated previously, at least lvl50 but preferably level 70. Your weapons should be much higher than they are and rider executioners were not really a good choice for a toon of your level. They have too many expensive req's. You should have gone with an alloy (yes just 1 alloy) or hammer. Hammers have very low req's compared to other weapons and do alot of damage. The downside is that they are slow. However, at lower levels hammers are excellent weapons though many have stopped using them. Once you reach level 125+ then consider dual alloys, beams, alloy/pipe, byoms, riders etc etc. Having reasonable armour is important too but even more importantly how much ip have you invested in evades? Do you get critted alot fighting mobs in missions? If you do then your evades are too low. If you are not getting critted but you are still taking alot of damage then you need better armour. At any rate the ql of the armour you are currently wearing is too low.

Next point, how is your 1st aid skill? Its the only healing you have during a fight (except for the mongo lines). Are you using the best 1st aid kit you can for your level (ie is it max'd or close to max'd)? How about your aggression bar? Are you fighting full aggressive not 50% or full defensive? Do you split mobs in dungeons or do you charge into the room and get aggro'd and try to fight multiple mobs at once? Do you fight the mobs to the death or do you zone out once you realize you can't handle the situation and come back after a quick healing break?

As for money, you are absolutely correct. Pre- level 100ish money is harder to get. After level 100ish money is a joke. If you do missions then you should invest in break and entry skill so that you can pop every chest you can find. Buy 5 or 6 small backpacks and stick them in your inventory and load them up with absolutely everything you can find in the mission. Sell everything you get to the machines...oh and make sure the mission setting is full money before even pulling the mission. The other way to get cash is to blitz missions. If you get good at it you can make alot of money fast. To blitz you need good runspeed (fixer buff works wonders here), and to set your agg/def bar to full def. Run in look for the pickup item or machine you need to click on, moving as quickly as you can from room to room without engaging mobs (turn auto-attack of in options menu) until you need to exit because your health is getting low or you find what you are looking for. Remember, however, assasinate missions or observe missions do not work well when it comes to blitzing. If you prefer to hunt then whenever possible hunt mutants. Monster parts converted to blood plasma bring pretty good change from the machines.

I could go on giving you tips from now till doomsday and they would certainly help I am sure. However, the best piece of advice I can give you is......JOIN A GUILD. If you find a good guild, your guildies will help you with advice, information, buffs and items you need. I will give you an example. In the guild that I am in, one of the members is a relatively low level without a yalm. At a recent guild meeting she was discussing the problems she was having getting to missions because of mobs and the time it takes to walk. Within 2 mins of the discussion she had 4 mil credits in hand, donated by other guild members so she could buy a yalm.

Good Luck

[ralguramo]

I've never had troubles getting money for implants. I only started a few months ago and I have 2 characters with yalms, the highest of which is lvl 88. I made a few friends here and there, but I got my first yalm by getting loot out of missions that was desireable and selling it to players. I only sold stuff to stores that was junk no one wanted.

I find it hard to dig up sympathy here. I sure as hell hope they don't dummy the game down any. It's easy as it is.

If you ask in a constructive way without whining, you'd be amazed how helpful people can be.

I'll offer some advice here on how to make money to get into ql 70 implants with your 36 enf. Make a new character that can solo easily at the level 7-15 range. Find missions that have a ql10 concrete cushion as the reward or find item (if it's the find item, don't turn it in).

Get a couple of them together. Post on the exchange forum of the server you play on that you are selling them and taking bids. Set a closing time for the bid. Deliver the cushions to the buyer. Rinse and repeat.

I made 750k for 3 of these cushions recently. Granted the price may not always be that good but you CAN make money at low levels. Read the boards, watch the chat for what sells, etc. Even if you are a loner who likes to solo, you can still do this.

If you think this game is tough, you should have played EverQuest. I had a druid up to 59 and he still was barely able to make enough money to get the things he needed.

It's all about market savvy, attitude (be nice, don't beg and I'm not saying you are begging) and perserverance. If someone comes up to me in a shop and starts prostrating themselves and asking for stuff they get ignored. On the other hand, if I see a very low character standing at a mission terminal not asking for stuff, sometimes I will hand them a nice chunk of change. I just really despise people who beg and try to reward the ones that don't.

I just got ql 110 implants purchased with all clusters for my lvl 70....Yes, 70 fixer. This fixer did it all on her own without relying on my lvl 88 MA. She put together sets of armor that are in demand and sold them. You gotta be willing to work for stuff, but you also have to be smart about it.

[Shion]

Well geez, that's a bit too much negativity for my liking. I knew I'd get alot of that, yeah, it's too easy, it must be your fault. Well, I want to be playing the game, not selling pillows to the other players for the money so I can get through an average difficulty mission for my level. i AM in a guild but I don't take hand-outs because I don't like it, simple as that. I also don't like having to make my character a specific way because elsewise I won't be able to survive.

I don't see how one alloy staff will beat 2 riders, they're quick and do alot of damage, although the heavy weapons is something of costly so my first aid isn't so great (although 200 over 100 more hp out of my 1.5k every... how long, doesn't seem that important) My evades are as high as I can keep them, which is over half my highest offencive skill. I was doing missions of higher difficulty up until around 40 when the gap was 4 levels, and shortly after I'm having trouble with average difficulty missions. I still think it's just insane fighting something that'd just orange, and hitting it for 150's while it hits me for 60's and it's winning, but hey, what the hell do I know?

level 43, quality 55 riders, if THAT's under-equiped it is utter nonsense that anyone's arguing with me over difficulty, I mean, it SUPPOSED to be that you have items of quality around your level. And that's what I have, a full suit, and people are telling me my ac must be horribly below. But still people are arguing, nothing wrong with the game stats, I've just not equipped enough items of quality considerably higher level than myself.

I'm not looking for sympathy, I want some people to vindicate my opinions, but it seems hardly anyone on here agrees (obviously just read the post title 'sheer difficulty' and thought that they'd be able to put someone down and argue their points) Well I still think most of my points are valid, and really, I'm not looking for tips on gameplay, I'll get those from friendlier people in my guild. If people disagree, fine, but I don't think you should be wasting your time trying to argue me. There are players of average skill, crappy skill, and then the ones who know the system hands down, have themselves with the best equipment and implants money can buy, etc. etc. And I think THAT is what the difficulty slider in the mission should be for. But, that's just how I see it. And to me doing missions solo after 40ish just isn't fun because the battles take so long as they have SO much more life than you, and you start getting beaten by single guys even while you're out-damaging them considerably. And to reiterate, I do group when I can, but I like having the freedom to go alone when no friends are around without having to be reliant on people just to play, and get stuck missioning with people who's vocabulary consists of:
lvl
add
run
ding
down
wtf??
and so forth
because I frankly would rather be going with npc's, but that's just me. And that's enough for this post, too long already.

-Shion

[Bionitrous]

Seriously, I wasn't ragging at all. I guess the key point I was trying to make was 'research'. If you did a bit of research specifically on these forums, you'd find out so much that the game would become ridiculously easy.

I know players who made a million credits in a day buying full Omni-Med suits and selling them in Newland. That's being entrepenureal (sp.).

Concrete cushions at qlvl10-13 are big sellers. People will even buy sunglasses for over a hundred K if they lost theirs.

Money should not be an issue for a lowbie who takes a bit of time to hang around below 20 for a while.

The other point I made was with respect to outleveling your gear. Get in a six-man team and kill reds at level 40 for a full Saturday afternoon and you'll find yourself in a big jam. You're now 20 levels above what you should be equipped with, you got no credits since you blew through the missions, you now have to buy all new nanos, you get eaten alive because you got crappy armor and implants.

I can sympathize with those who make that mistake. Once again, I pointed out the solution. It's not a pleasant fix if you aren't in a guild, but it's a fix nonetheless:

Take solo-missions full of greys if you have to. Fill up backpack after backpack with everything off everything. Make sure you can use the mission reward if at all possible. Sell every thing in the mission to the shops and repeat. Each mission you can get new armor or a nano. Each mission you get stronger. Eventually, you are back in fighting form.

One way to avoid this is to be the one that forms the groups. Choose team missions where at least one of the six rewards is something you can use (especially in the future). Having stuff waiting for you in the bank is what team mission are all about.

If your group is of the type that simply blows through the mission without sometimes looting corpses and chests, then if it's yer last mission, don't grid out with them. Tell 'em it's yer last mission of the day and you're going to walk back out and check the chests. Good stuff to sell in team mission chests. Nano chargers get you a nice coin if you didn't know.

The game is not difficult. It's easy as hell. Even for newbs as the rules change little from 1 - 200. What might be considered difficult is learning 'how' to play. Once you figure that out, you'll be as jaded as the rest of us.

[Bionitrous]

Yeah, I made a hammer-wielding Agent who didn't take any credits from my main or from the guild. I put all my IP's into Swimming as it was light blue.

And them damn Escaped Claws tore right through her thong.

The sheer difficulty was mind-boggling.

No more help for the hopeless.

[______________Nianna]

I've played plenty of other MMORPGs and this one is far from the easiest to play as a newbie. Level-based games tend to be a ton easier. There's no way to mess up your character when there are no balancing choices to make. In this game we have wide latitude in how we develop our characters, but that also provides us with a lot of ways to gimp our characters meaning we'd have to start again or be hindered for a long time, possibly till about level 150 when the IPs really start to flow.

EverQuest is one of the easiest to be a newbie in. You only get to distribute about 25 points of stats and where you put them hardly matters at all. The game suggests where to put those points so you are likely to put them somewhere that won't mess your character up even if the suggestions aren't always the best. After that there are no choices to make. No matter what you do (aside from really messing up your faction standings, but your newbie quests help you understand which factions you should align with) you will never have to restart your character. Every path leads to success.

In this game and in Asheron's Call every path does not lead to success. In fact there are a lot of choices available and more of them do not work than do, so players end up having to start multiple characters and after spending hours or days on one they end up having to scrap it and go back to the drawing board. That is frustrating.

[Bionitrous]

Guess, I ought to say it again. If you actually research before jumping blindly into things, this game is incredibly easy.

Yeah, it's so damn difficult to go to the Enforcer forum and ask 'what skills should I be concentrating on and anybody got any tips for a newbie enforcer?'

This game is also incredibly easy to screw yourself over with if you don't have a plan or a willingness to seek out advice. Probably more ways to screw yourself over than anywhere else. Kinda like the ratio of useful items to shop fodder.

That's one of the few things that leads to any satisfaction with this game is planning out a new character and getting him over 100 without wasting any IP or using any reset points.