Council of Truth clarifications?

[Bionitrous]

Like I said. Just personal opinion. Maybe, I'm not as enlightened as I like to think I am. But, I would much more freely accept a judgement brought down upon my character's environment by a FunCom story element than by some other player.

There's people on the other side who feel that is simply wrong. Why even bother doing anything when FunCom can simply make your character do cartwheels through the streets of Tir if they wish to make it so on the server?

I never gave much thought to the James Bond canon after Ian Fleming wrote his last novel.

I also have difficulty with players who won't be in the game in 4 or 6 months. Hextorr signed off today. Virral disappeared. CaptFallout gone. Snarf gone.

I also have difficulty with people like Winguaerd who do a fine job of roleplaying, being even considered as representative of a faction's total playerbase. The two are almost polar opposites. The power of the player's who would crush the Omni players is 95% to 98% ignorant to who this person even is. Ask them who Argulace is or Noer and whether they would die for him in battle and get another answer.

Now, ask them if they know who Henry Radiman is. Go ask an Omni who Phillip Ross is. OK, now two years down the road ask them who Phillip Ross is (or 'was' if it turns out that way).

Bringing us to the next point. What happens when this Windguaerd guy dies? Does he cancel his account or start a new character? I know when FunCom kills Ross or Radiman or Silverstone or Galahad their players are not going to be punching the monitor.

As far as roleplaying, it's great to see some life breathed into the political climate again. The speach by Redruum was pretty awful, however. Pretty much incoherent, unstructured, juvenile rantings. That's just one man's opinion. You blew any attempt at legitemacy by letting that one go out with having been proofread by a committee. Not going to go down in history with the preamble to the Declaration of Independance as far as soul stirring is concerned.

I really wish there were more roleplaying like we see from the NanoMage Liberation Front where they are free to basically do anything they want within their plotline. I grow weary of people constantly grasping for the main roles. Those guys are working the system and not only making the history books, but have the potential to have a spotlight of their own without having to deal with people like me. The harder they work, the better their product will be and the more enjoyable for them and us.

I will simply refuse to ever step forth onto a battlefield when called upon by some other player unless he is my guild leader. I think the same holds true for the majority of the paying customers. However, should Phillip Ross tell all Omni-Tek employees to wear black on a particular day, you can be sure the big cities would be a bit less colorful on that one particular day.

Supporting FunCom in making that last type of enlivenment a reality is what I personally think is called for rather than tugging for the reigns yourself and fighting them every step of the way. And one way of 'supporting' them is bashing them to no end when they slip up or slow down.

The guy who got his orders from the DB'er on the vid screen was found dead. Let's see how this affects our world.

Talk it up and keep Ragnar's spirit charged.

3 Dusters were seen exiting the Tir grid and heading towards the CoT building. Why no discussion on their mission? Is noone curious or if it isn't you in the spotlight don't you care?

Not trying to be harsh here. Just trying to speak for the common player. The non-roleplayer who has been itching for a story. There are so many people who enjoyed the Storyline as it was going and had their hopes dashed when a lot of the glory seekers and dyed-in-the-wool RP'ers bashed FunCom's efforts. There were quite a few people. They just don't post on the forums or have the eloquence to have their voices considered.

Most of them are still wondering what happened and feel cheated. What is best for the majority of the players is what I always support. Even if it were one of my characters who were to be elected to lead the Clans or take Ross's seat, I just couldn't do it. It would not be fair to the other players. In a game like this no player has any right to assume such a position.

You need to think of this: you can get away with this when you are sitting with your buddies playing D&D or whatever PnP roleplaying game you enjoy. The reason is you are all subcribing to the group. Now imagine one of yer guys has worked his way to King of the World. You don't just go to your neighbors RP session and expect to be King of the World or start changing their storyline.

You can get away with a player having authority within a guild. You've all come willingly together as a group and have interpersonal relationships that define you as a unit.

You cannot do this on a faction level in a game of this scale. Players pay money. They want to be a Clanner or perhaps they want to join Omni-Pol. Assume Redruum or PlayerY becomes leader of the Clans. What is this customer supposed to do to redress this situation? Switch sides? Go to another server?

People despise PvP by and large. Standard RPG axiom is that all players want to affect the world but they don't want to have the world affect them or have other players able to affect them without consent. They don't mind a bugbear killing them, but if it's another player they get upset and possibly stop paying.

It's OK to lose to the 'game'. It's not OK to lose to another 'player'. Likewise, FunCom is free to bend and weave the Story as they see fit. When players start doing this to a degree that it affects what happens when another player logs on, you are close to having situations that will cause people to stop playing.

These are all the disjointed thoughts of why it's a very very bad thing to ever assume that something like the CoA could ever be given creedence by the game itself. It's potential for disaster. It's the kind of thing that if it went horribly wrong could lose 40% of the playerbase in a very short span of time. You play with fire with this kind of stuff.

[Jynne]

You're right to an extent, Sambika. There can be no heroes without villains.

The problem COA is facing is that the approach they took set them up as the villains. Basically, bad PR, especially in the form of continuing bellicose statements and still-unclear goals and motivations, have made it so that no reasonable or peace-seeking person will trust them. And once lost, trust is very hard to regain.

I've heard some of Windguaerd's speeches to the CCL, I've read Nelida's statements and Redruum's speeches, and the simple fact is that almost every such official communication from COA is contradictory with others if not with its own self. Several things seem only loosely based on facts or history, and almost every speech or statement at some point involves the idea of forcibly overthrowing the COT if they don't do what the COA wants, and/or starting an open war with Omni-Tek.

Sambika, you claim that COA is being misunderstood - but when you're being misunderstood by pretty much everyone, that's a very good sign that you either aren't communicating effectively, or aren't being honest. Either way, COA has created and continues to create and strengthen its own opposition with its official statements.

[____________Keaorata]

This was released to the VoF recently.

Its an official statement and explains everything openly and honestly.

Council of Ares, Council of War

How did CoA came to be, and why.

It all began 8 months ago with The Council of Truth’s Spokesman Mr. Henry Radiman’s disappearance, the lack of any CoT official to guide the clans, or keep them informed of the Council of Truth’s work for the people.

July 22nd. One of the most respected clans in existence, Opposing Force, rallies in front of the CoT Building demanding action and answers. Their Press Release previous to the Rally was clear.

“The time has come for action. The time has come to take matters into our own hands. The time has come to show the Council of Truth (the COT) we will no longer stand idle while they do nothing in our conflict with Omni-Tek!

Clanners unite! Unite with us as we take the first steps and Rally against the COT and their lack of leadership on the 21st of July at 10am. We will be rallying against the COT for approximately one hours time every day this week. We must show the Council and Mr. Radiman we will no longer accept non-leadership.

The time is now to step up and lead the clans! If the Council of Truth will not, then it is time for them to step down and for us, as the clans to put someone there who will lead the clans to peace, freedom and choice.”

The Press Release after the rally states:

“No member of the Council of Truth appeared to appease the demonstrators and Radiman was nowhere to be found. When the crowd dispersed, an eerie silence returned to the COT compound, perhaps proving the point that inactivity is the current regime's claim to fame.”

Commander Redruum of Clan Anarchist Syndicate and Commander Windguaerd of Mercury Dragons Clan began discussing options on how to deal with the situation after CoT failed to respond to the Rally.

It was decided pressure needed to be put, not just politically but on a military level. The threat of a new Council would certainly force the CoT to react, or at least respond.

But what if the results are just as unacceptable as the previous 8 months of inactivity?

Further discussions made both leaders realize if their plan fails, then the newly proposed Council WOULD have a chance to replace CoT. As military men they assumed the CoT supporters would challenge them, as they would if they were they.

The plan to bluff CoT into action changed, to one to replace them if the response from the current clan leadership representing our people was not satisfactory.

They begun to contact a few clan leaders we knew privately, and gave them the BASIC idea what the Council of Ares was about. The name Ares was chosen as it represents the war we are in (Ares, ancient Greek God of War). Most agreed with it and agreed to give support, others decided to remain neutral.

CoA sent CoT a warning before we went public, we made it clear we were preparing to replace the inactive leadership, and that if it meant a Coup, it would be so.

Soon after, Mr. Radiman sent a response to the clan people, coincidence?

Based on his response the CoA goals were changed. It was decided that instead of acting against the CoT supporters, we would REACT to them if they challenged us IF the Coup took place.

Rumors of CoA planning to hack insurance patterns of Clan Leaders who support CoT are unsubstantiated, and outright lies.

CoA Clans have fought Dust Brigade and all kinds of threats against the clans; we’ve fought those who would use such methods. We have not, and will not, become that which we’ve fought against.

Some clans are openly in the CoA while others are not. We have the support of strong clans, with certain conditions. Such conditions vary, some depend on a certain time, and others based on their own values of what they consider a proper response from CoT about their lack of leadership.

OpFor and Lost Chapter have openly stated they would support a change in leadership if CoT doesn’t step up.

We do not want a civil war. But if CoT proves to be worthless to the people, then change is needed. The Council of Ares will accept with open arms ANY clan leader (even if it is a supporter of CoT) IF CoT is deposed. We will not hold a grudge against those who would fight for their beliefs, in the best interest of the clans, from their perspective.

CoA is a military coalition, however we rather replace CoT (if necessary of course) peacefully. CoT could step down and allow the ACTIVE Clan Leaders do what needs to be done.

WE are the ones at the frontlines; we’ve fought Mutants, Omni-Tek Factions and Militia, Cyborgs, Mutants and Dust Brigade. CoT has done nothing but the old “we’re looking into it, we’ll get back to you” for far too long. We want answers, and we want answers within 2 weeks of today (August 4th, 29476).

If CoT does not care to appropriately answer for their complete lack of leadership in the past 8 months and their achievements during such period, then CoA will discuss a plan of action.

I personally think that explains as much as is needed.

[Bionitrous]

Still don't explain what you think needs to be done. About three dozen times people asked what you think the CoT should do that it isn't doing.

If you could command the CoT like a puppet on a string to do one thing, what would you send them to do?

I think that's the area where every sees things as fuzzy. What is your mission statement other than transferring the seat of power from Them to You?

You see, most people see the CoA as simply unecessary. Most Clanners I speak to are quite happy with how they are being provided for as a community.

[Jynne]

That press release basically amounts to a threat against the COT, Sambika. Are you sure that's COA's official position? I read that press release as saying, "The COT must do as we want, or else we will replace them with ourselves - by force if they won't go away when we ask."

Do you not recognize that there is no practical difference between using threats of force (such as this one) to control the COT's actions, and using actual force to depose the COT and setting yourselves in their place? You're saying that you want to set policy for the Clans with the COT as your mouthpiece, or else you will dispose of them so that you can set policy for the Clans anyway.

Is that about the size of it? I had some problems understanding the COA's current goals and intentions, because included were statements from other organizations and ramblings about past flip-flops in the COA's purpose.

[TemplarRed]

Originally posted by Bionitrous
I repeat: what exactly were the problems that the CoT was supposed to address that have been so horribly neglected. Ask me and I'll say the Clans have been enjoying a Golden Age. No war for years and years and all the while enjoying vast amounts of Rubi'ka landscape. All this brought about by the efforts of the Council members.

Inaction? Pfft.

Change the entire face of the planet for the betterment of your people and continue to do so in the wake of a terrible civil war as the planet and it's people heal themselves. That's action enough.

What the hell do some people want?

There is talk of war going on. It's been going on for quite some time now, on both sides. As a Clanner, Omni-Tek does not like me on (as they would say) their planet. This is spelled out for me, painfully & clearly, every time I walk into the Rompa Bar & quietly take a seat at a booth. And from what we're being told from the time that we've arrived on this planet, we are closer than ever to another civil war.

Omni-Tek is a business, & Clanners are an exigency. We are bad for business. It would seem far less risky to do simply wipe us all out on fine evening, than to risk Clanners making another Athen out of one of their cities; such things tend to make investors nervous.

Peace talks, Tir Accord, nothing. Omni wouldn't likely claim responsibility for wiping us all out. As far as the ICC is concerned, the desert might've simply just swallowed us up.

So, while the Clanners plant seeds during the daytime & dance at Reets after-hours, we have a fully-stocked mobile Omni base station, complete with juggernaut, set up in our own backyard. Avalon, specifically.

Why do you think they have a juggernaut there, so close to Athen, where there are no Omni holdings to defend?

What the hell do we want? We want to know what the CoT has been doing about this loaded gun lowered at our collective temples, ever since peace negotiations dissolved. If something has been done, then we'd very likely back up the CoT 100% (we'd give them hell for not providing any status reports, but we'd back them up nonetheless).

If nothing has been done (as seems to be the case)... then we have a big problem.

[TemplarRed]

Originally posted by Bionitrous
Like I said. Just personal opinion. Maybe, I'm not as enlightened as I like to think I am. But, I would much more freely accept a judgement brought down upon my character's environment by a FunCom story element than by some other player.

There's people on the other side who feel that is simply wrong. Why even bother doing anything when FunCom can simply make your character do cartwheels through the streets of Tir if they wish to make it so on the server?

I never gave much thought to the James Bond canon after Ian Fleming wrote his last novel.

I also have difficulty with players who won't be in the game in 4 or 6 months. Hextorr signed off today. Virral disappeared. CaptFallout gone. Snarf gone.

I also have difficulty with people like Winguaerd who do a fine job of roleplaying, being even considered as representative of a faction's total playerbase. The two are almost polar opposites. The power of the player's who would crush the Omni players is 95% to 98% ignorant to who this person even is. Ask them who Argulace is or Noer and whether they would die for him in battle and get another answer.

Now, ask them if they know who Henry Radiman is. Go ask an Omni who Phillip Ross is. OK, now two years down the road ask them who Phillip Ross is (or 'was' if it turns out that way).

Bringing us to the next point. What happens when this Windguaerd guy dies? Does he cancel his account or start a new character? I know when FunCom kills Ross or Radiman or Silverstone or Galahad their players are not going to be punching the monitor.

OoC-->

If anything such as this were in the works, then yes, I would agree 100% with you. A player-governed has RK1 would most likely make the RK2 server a great deal more popular. Too much potential for too many problems.

But nothing of the sort has been proposed by Funcom, nor any players of CoA Clan leaders. Even if they had the spare time to take up the server-reigns (I sure don't have that kind of free time ), I highly doubt they would want to.

What the players in CoA have proposed is a Senate of player-characters to replace this so-called Council (NPC's who have yet to make ANY appearance on RK, unless you're counting those movies) and support Radiman (or whatever FC-controlled governing NPC's they want to use).

Now... to (hopefully) abate any fears that two or three players are trying to hold dominion over all the Clanners on RK1... here's a direct quote from Redruum, at his post-speech Q&A on the night of the 8th:

"20:10: Redruum shouts: Darkwizard the Senate is comprised of clan leaders, one person from each clan."

WHAT CoA IS TRYING TO BUILD IS FOR YOU TOO. NOT JUST FOR CoA CLANS.

Before anyone bring up this counter-point: Yes, I agree, it sounds like one hell of an undertaking. It very well may be hard to coordinate. We'll see. With any luck, only the Clan leaders who are serious about this will show when the Senate meets.

What's the worst that could happen? Nothing. Nothing happens, nothing gets done; people continue to do missions, camp spawns, & dance in clubs without any thoughts, expectations, or hopes of any global events at all. Pretty much where we are right now.

[TemplarRed]

Originally posted by Jynne
That press release basically amounts to a threat against the COT, Sambika. Are you sure that's COA's official position?

We are not in favor of civil war. Normally, I quickly grow irritated with such redundancy. But in this case, I can understand how confusion has arisen. Statements were made, the like of which many would consider to be threats. More on that in just a moment...

Originally posted by Jynne
I read that press release as saying, "The COT must do as we want, or else we will replace them with ourselves - by force if they won't go away when we ask."

You will interpret anything however you wish to, & no one can prevent you from doing so. But the statement you have enclosed within quotes was neither spoken, nor purpose intended by any leaders involved with the CoA. I would respectfully ask of you, please do not put words in the collective mouths of your fellow Clan leaders again.

Originally posted by Jynne
Do you not recognize that there is no practical difference between using threats of force (such as this one) to control the COT's actions, and using actual force to depose the COT and setting yourselves in their place?

If you're saying that a cold war, fought with threats, is just as bad as open warfare with human casualties (in this case, a coup), then I would strongly disagree.

"Civil war" is a term that is being used by many more Clanners outside of the CoA, than from those within the CoA. Again, we do not want civil war to happen, nor are we anticipating it will happen. Are we prepared for it? Of course. But if no one wants it to happen, then odds of this outcome are slim to none.

Besides, if the CoT sits idle & makes no attempt to thwart Omni-Tek & Dust Brigade aggression, who would expect them to take up arms against their own sons & daughters? A fool, perhaps.

I, for one, am expecting one of two outcomes:

1.) The CoT steps down peacefully, voluntarily, allowing a Senate represented by every Clan to take its place as Radiman's advisors. I've heard that the CoT has done some remarkable work for us in the past, prior to my time on this world. This has not been the case as of late. Perhaps they are weary, & the time to pass the baton has finally come.

...or...

2.) The CoT takes action, takes steps toward Clan unification, & shows that they are able to respond when Clanners are murdered by Omnis, the Dusties, what have you. This is all that Windguaerd & Redruum wanted from square one. Perhaps this is the reaction they are looking for? If I was asked: Were CoA leaders bluffing when the challenge was set forth? ... of this, I could not say for certain. If this is so, then the plan is working. We seem to be getting some reaction, finally.

If a poor reputation, brought upon us by an ultimatum that was sullied by the lies, slander, & misunderstanding of our brethren... if this is the price we must pay to rally our so-called Council to stand up for its citizens, then I can certainly live with that.

[Jynne]

Madhava,

The statement I put in quotes was not an attempt to put words into someone's mouth, it was an attempt at distilling the meaning of that press release. How else am I supposed to interpret the following?

We do not want a civil war. But if CoT proves to be worthless to the people, then change is needed. The Council of Ares will accept with open arms ANY clan leader (even if it is a supporter of CoT) IF CoT is deposed. We will not hold a grudge against those who would fight for their beliefs, in the best interest of the clans, from their perspective.

CoA is a military coalition, however we rather replace CoT (if necessary of course) peacefully. CoT could step down and allow the ACTIVE Clan Leaders do what needs to be done.

After reading the press release three times, that seems to be the description of the CoA's current goals in it. It took me three tries to find it, because there are sections of OpFor statements, talk about what CoA thought eight months ago, and various other side-tracks. But if that isn't your goal, why did you put it in a press release?

There is certainly a difference between a war fought with words and a war fought with guns, but my point is that words or guns, war is still war. If CoA uses words (threats) to force its will on the Clans, or if CoA uses guns to force is will on the Clans, CoA is either way forcing its will on the Clans. That would seem to be the exact opposite of a democratic movement. Why not put it up for a vote instead? Ask the Clans if they want the CoT replaced; indeed if there is a fair vote, I suspect the CoT would in fact step aside. But it's not up to Redruum and Windguaerd to decide for everyone that the CoT needs to go. CoA can build itself a base in Mort next to the Sentinels and reject the CoT's authority over tea with Mr. Silverstone without bothering any of the other Clans who are quite happy with their lives.

And to this statement that you made:

There is talk of war going on. It's been going on for quite some time now, on both sides. As a Clanner, Omni-Tek does not like me on (as they would say) their planet. This is spelled out for me, painfully & clearly, every time I walk into the Rompa Bar & quietly take a seat at a booth. And from what we're being told from the time that we've arrived on this planet, we are closer than ever to another civil war.

The Clans revolted against horrible working conditions under Omni-Tek, we eventually won relative independence and autonomy and almost half of the terraformed area of the planet, our existence alone forces Omni-Tek to treat its remaining workers humanely, and we caused ICC to shorten Omni-Tek's lease on the whole planet, speeding the arrival of a democratic government for everyone regardless of affiliation. We didn't revolt so that we could overthrow Omni-Tek's rule on the whole planet and take over Rompa's. We got what we wanted. The CoT got us what we wanted. To make things crystal clear: The Clans have already won.

[Bionitrous]

Well, we got an answer finally. The CoA wants the CoT to ask Omni-Tek what the deal is with the two Omni bases in Avalon. That's a valid question. Not sure if it's worth dissolving the Council of Truth.

But, here's an idea: why not present this question to the Council of Truth. It the first time I've heard of this concern.

Perhaps, there was a gentlemen's agreement concerning these two bases as both are only a stone's throw from Omni territory.

[TemplarRed]

Originally posted by Jynne
But if that isn't your goal, why did you put it in a press release?

The rally that took place prior to the ultimatum went ignored by the CoT. If they were ignoring us, then what other options did we have? What else were we to do? Perhaps what was said will reflect poorly upon us, but it got their attention.

Originally posted by Jynne
That would seem to be the exact opposite of a democratic movement. Why not put it up for a vote instead? Ask the Clans if they want the CoT replaced; indeed if there is a fair vote, I suspect the CoT would in fact step aside

Excellent idea. However, the Clans have no forum to vote on any such issues. That's why the CoA is calling for a Senate comprised of delegates from every Clan. If we had one, then all the browbeating wouldn't be neccessary. This is the primary goal of the CoA; to give unheard voices a chance to be heard, not to impose anyones' will upon others.

Originally posted by Jynne
We got what we wanted. The CoT got us what we wanted. To make things crystal clear: The Clans have already won.

Not all Clanners are content with what had been gained (perhaps a vote upon this is needed, as well). Many others who do approve of the Tir Accord are unhappy with the CoT's prolonged silence after negotiations with Ross were held last fall. We were told that they had failed, then we heard nothing more.

For whatever it's worth, our leader would not seem to be in agreement with those feeling satiated. His words:

14:25: Henry Radiman: The Council of Truth has met, and we have discussed at length the challenges laid before us. It is, as always, my task to inform you about our dialogue and our decisions. But I’m afraid that, this time, there are no decisions.
14:25: Henry Radiman: The Council has not fulfilled its duty to you.

[Ashval]

For the record, I'm not bashing anyone's efforts here...but, I had to respond to this quote...

"That's why the CoA is calling for a Senate comprised of delegates from every Clan. If we had one, then all the browbeating wouldn't be neccessary. This is the primary goal of the CoA; to give unheard voices a chance to be heard, not to impose anyones' will upon others. "

Delegates from every Clan? I didn't realize that every Clanner was in a CLAN. What about us independents who to this point have chosen to not join a "clan"? Do we have a voice as well, or are we not considered part of this wished for democracy?

Seems to me that if you want unheard voices to have a voice, you'd be more concerned with the little people as well.

Again, not trying to start trouble...just curious to hear a response to my feelings on this.

[_____________Hirunda]

All this talk about senates and councils and democracy; why not have a referendum?

We live in a high tech society, why not let every Clan member vote on important issues using high tech means? Some kind of remote voting using the communications we have available to us.

Those officially recognised at the leaders and powers of the Clans; who are currently the COT would not be legally obliged to listen to the result of such a vote, but it would end the arguments which result from people claiming they had the majority of the clans on their side.

You want to know who among the clans still want the COT to be 'in charge'? You want to know if people would prefer the COA? Ask them.

It would be quicker than countless wordy discussions that rely on lots of people with different sleep patterns having to be awake at the same time; resulting in some kind of archaic counting of raised hands from only clan leaders of clans who are in big enough and active enough to go to such a meeting.

OOC: I don't know how difficult it would be for Funcom to create some way of polling for votes from all Clan members, it would certainly be more convincing if any referendum system was created by them, and was explained when you logged into the game.

I've seen lots of different and exciting things done using bots that are able to access the character DB and check the identity of people. Perhaps if Funcom were unwilling to put any work into this kind of system, someone could do some thing with a bot that could register and counts votes for a particular yes/no question.

[TemplarRed]

Originally posted by Braedon
For the record, I'm not bashing anyone's efforts here...but, I had to respond to this quote...

"That's why the CoA is calling for a Senate comprised of delegates from every Clan. If we had one, then all the browbeating wouldn't be neccessary. This is the primary goal of the CoA; to give unheard voices a chance to be heard, not to impose anyones' will upon others. "

Delegates from every Clan? I didn't realize that every Clanner was in a CLAN. What about us independents who to this point have chosen to not join a "clan"? Do we have a voice as well, or are we not considered part of this wished for democracy?

Seems to me that if you want unheard voices to have a voice, you'd be more concerned with the little people as well.

Again, not trying to start trouble...just curious to hear a response to my feelings on this.

Very good question!

In most cases, Clanners who have an interest in politics, local or global, are commonly members of established political Clans. Clanless Clanners are less inclined to pay any mind to such things. You, sir, are one of the exceptions. And I salute you, for I imagine that the path you have chosen could be somewhat toilsome: Earning representation for those who have not or will not choose a representative.

I would not expect that anyone could provide you with an answer at this junction. We are still awaiting word from the CoT; some indication that they are willing & capable to unite & lead the Clans. But this will be brought to light if the proposed senate gets the go-ahead.

For now, I would advise any/all of the following:

a.) Speak with a Clan leader or spokesperson you know. If you want to be heard, these are the best people to be heard through. Keep in mind that the most prolific leaders are bombarded by /tells contantly... & they all want time to hunt, mission, fetch gear, etc. just like everyone else. Posting queries to Clan websites might yield best results.

b.) Speak with other clanless citizens such as yourself. Is there any possiblitiy of chosing one delegate to represent concerned independants?

c.) Join a Clan, or start your own. There is something to be said for strength in unity (I'm not sure if you're opposed to this idea or you simply haven't yet found a Clan that suits you).


[Out of character-->

Realistically... true democracy would never work due to issues with game mechanics. Even if a someone programmed a bot that could tally a one-vote-per-character system, abusing this would be easy. Players could have limitless votes via creating & deleting alt after alt. I imagine one would need access to private account info to prevent this (i.e., no one could pull this off except Funcom).]

[_____________Hirunda]

This is a potential solution for a structure that would allow people to have access to leaders and organisations that might aid their RP and enjoyment of the game, and might give a structure to feed plot information into the game, and to siphon player opinions out of the game in a reasonable fair and interesting way.

1) Not everyone is cut out to be an Organisation leader. Most people don’t have the time, energy or interest in being an organisation leader; its damn hard work and it requires a lot of commitment in time and energy.
2) Not everyone finds a player organisation that suits them.
3) Most don’t have the inclination to start their own organisation.
4) Many people admire some of the philosophies and purposes of the existing organisations defined by Funcom.
5) For these people there would be a purpose in joining an NPC organisation.


Bringing NPC organisations to life

1) The NPC organisations could be created in game with an ARK or GM character running the org. They would need enough time and resources on all time zones to add/invite a new member (if this can’t be done remotely). Any Important votes would be put to the members using the existing voting system (I’ve seen mention of an organisation voting system, I assume here that it works.) The results would then be fed back to whatever higher body the Organisation reported to. The Org Leader would (hopefully) pass certain information and possibly clues to events or interesting happenings to whatever org members were on line at the time.

2) The ARK/GM in charge should be allowed to set member behaviour standards based on the ‘funcom defined ethos’ of the organisation, and if people couldn’t keep to the rules they would get kicked out. People should know these rules in advance.

3) What a player could expect from joining an NPC org should be made clear. If the ARK/GM leader doesn’t have time or resources to organise special events for their members then that should be stated in advance. If it is something that is up to the discretion of the NPC leader then that should be stated in advance. If the Org is there purely to give an RP context for a character, and to register an opinion on any major faction votes; then that should be stated in advance.

4) I personally think that having NPC orgs as just a voting funnel for people whose characters believe in the creed of the NPC org they join is a good enough reason for creating them; whatever the other downsides. The potential is there for more, but human nature complicates social issues and things would have to be taken step by step.

5) The NPC Clan Leader should be an NPC character that can be acted by a competent ARK/GM that could then be passed on to another ARK/GM if the RL circumstances of the person playing the original NPC changed. That way the name and face would stay consistent, and the long term actions of the character would stay consistent if the ARK/GM playing them obeyed the personality description for that NPC and followed the direction of the person overseeing all the plots.

6) If an existing player organisation has used the name of an NPC Funcom organisation then an ARK/GM should talk to the Clan Leader of the organisation in question to see if they wish to become part of the ‘real’ faction; which would mean losing autonomy, because an NPC faction would have to be led by a Funcom sponsored character in order to maintain the impartiality players want to see from ‘official’ organisations.

7) An alternative would choose a closely related name and to enter a co-operative relationship with the New NPC character.

8) Another alternative would be to choose and unrelated name and go their own un-official independent way choosing to overlook or ignore the creation of an official organisation with its appropriate name.

9) Whatever the final choice for the player created organisation, they would have to change their name. (I know lots of people would disagree, but there doesn’t seem to be a workable alternative if Funcom were to bring a self-consistent world to life.)




Those people already in an active and interesting organisation can hold their own votes and report their voting results to which ever organisation or alliance their clan is aligned to.

The COT needs to create an active IC liaison or communication channel for those people in active organisations that wish to offer democratic support to the COT rather than to any player created alliance.

This communication channel should be something that is independent of time-zone so that even a more casual organisation on an odd time zone has a chance to communicate essential results or opinions.

A large senate requiring physical attendance should not be necessary if good communication channels are established. People can use the forums, websites, in-game events they organise themselves, as their chance to talk.

What the COT needs to be able to do is set a question, and get the results of voting from anyone who can be bothered to vote within the space of several days. They can then make appearances and announce their decision in the face of those results, to those who happen to be in game, and which will then be reported to the web-media where the rest of us will read about it.

[RandaZ]

Originally posted by Templar Red

[Out of character-->

Realistically... true democracy would never work due to issues with game mechanics. Even if a someone programmed a bot that could tally a one-vote-per-character system, abusing this would be easy. Players could have limitless votes via creating & deleting alt after alt. I imagine one would need access to private account info to prevent this (i.e., no one could pull this off except Funcom).]

(ooc)
About the bot-votes, you could always level restrict it. Possibly 5 or 10. Sure, double voting can still occur, but it takes quite a bit more concerted effort than just re-rolling alts. And while I emphasize for those new to the game and don't have even a lvl 10 char, voting when you just got off the boat doesn't happen in ANY democracy.


Tap

[Bionitrous]

Kudos to Hinrunda!

Good to know there are some realists out there who understand how the world works and are intelligent enough to be able to express their ideas clearly.

I couldn't have laid that out better if I spent a week editing.

Freedom where it can be allowed. Control where it is required. Adaptability and flexibilty.

Still won't satisfy some players unfortunately. Guess it should have been forseen that there would be people who thought they would be able to take the place of Phillip Ross or Henry Radiman. I put them on a par with the kids who are drooling over SW:G and think they're gonna be playing Darth Vader.

[______________Luxxan]

I'm glad that the goals of the CoA are gradually becoming clear. My only problem with it is that there seems to be an assumption that all clanners agree with them. For example, tossing ultimatums to the CoT and deciding on your own that what we need is a clan Senate may seem like good ideas, but those ideas were created without the input of the majority of clanners. If your goal is to represent everyone, then one would think you would take everyone's opinion into account while laying out the framework.

My personal opinion is that a Senate would never work. It is simply a glorified CCL, with all the bickering, cliquishness, and grandstanding. In all honesty, what you are asking is to simply have the CCL change it's name to "Senate" and be allowed to influence the game. Being one of the clan leaders who never bought into the CCL concept, that would put me and my guildmates out in the cold.

The concepts of an "every clanner votes" democracy are equally flawed. There is no way your average member of the masses can be completely educated on any political subject. Allowing them to have an official vote towards any political decision means that publicity and advertising rule the day. The whole concept behind a republic is that you elect people who you feel have the inclination and dedication to educate themselves on the political issues you are interested in but don't have time to learn about.

Both of these concepts are idealistic and naive and would result in terrible leadership. As things speed up politically on Rubi-Ka, any democratically oriented leadership is going to work too slowly and erractically to respond correctly to the difficulties we're going to face.

Now I am not saying that I feel the CoT is doing a top-notch job. However, I do not see any of these new CoA proposals as being enough of an improvement for us to sacrifice all the gains that have been made with the Tir Accord. I will continue to support the CoT and urge them to do what needs to be done to answer the needs of the clans.

[Ashval]

Templar Red, or "Madhava" if you prefer ...

Thank you for your considerate and well-worded response. Again, I do understand the problems that are encountered with trying to change things as they are now. I also understand, to a degree, the desire for change.

You took an interest in my personal situation as an Independent, so let me clarify things a bit. Myself and my companion, Kirasha, are still new to the world of Rubi-Ka, and we're taking our time in feeling out where our place in this world might be. We may well decide to remain as Independents, as we have high expectations from any leader or group of leaders that we would follow. Yet, I agree with your statement that the desire to get involved with the political scheme would best be served by either joining, or creating a Clan.

I will say this, if the time comes for me to make a decision on a Clan that suits me...your respect for my concerns will not be forgotten. I will also say that I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Radiman from the history books I have read since my arrival on this planet. Some of the rhetoric I have heard lately troubles me a bit, not in the voiced concern for the inactivity from the CoT...but, in the iron-fist manner they are trying to make changes.

It appears that I have arrived at an...interesting...time, to say the least.

Again, my thanks to you. I wish you and your Clan well in these troubled times. Perhaps we will have the opportunity to meet in-person someday to further our discussion.

With Respect,

Brendon "Braedon" Demesa

(OOC - I wish I had easy answers to the issue of having a reliable voting procedure. That being said, I think I'm leaning a bit more on the side of wanting to let Funcom try to get the story going themselves, as I think when they DO make an effort...the story is extremely entertaining and leads to good roleplay. As for joining an organization, I don't know where I stand right now. I've been a guild leader before, and I miss the responsibility that comes with it...yet, I don't know if I have the time to devote to starting one of my own. I imagine at some point, it's very possible that I'll find someone with the charisma and vision to win me over. I do enjoy roleplaying, and it's just not as much fun without a group to interact with.)