Some findings on multi-ranged speeds. Test results here.

[Dovve]

I've been going nuts trying to figure out how multi ranged "really" works so i can make a good decision on blowing a lot of ip or not. I read a good deal in this thread and decided i needed to do some research on my own to help clarify.

...

Ok so i've done some tests to see exactly how much the firing rate is slowed by using multi ranged. This test is all about timing and shots fired. I'm not going into damage yet, but i'm going to use these numbers below as a base for figuring out that step later.

Conditions:
Level 156 MP
Ranged Init 560
Multi Ranged 145
Guns: Two matching ql 15 Home defenders: Attack 2.49s Recharge 2.50s 25round clip (used lowbie guns to aviod ip cost of multiranged and to get matching attack recharge times, home defenders get faster as the ql goes up).

All tests start with the guns fully loaded (25 round clip). Reload time is not an issue as all the tests were one minute long and the guns did not run out of ammo. I pressed "Q" on the start of the minute and stopped shooting exactly at the end of the minute.

SINGLE RANGED (One Gun in Right hand)
Tests: 4 (Same results on all 4)
Duration: 1 minute ea.
Total Shots fired: 18 (same result in each test)

MULTI RANGED (Two guns, one in each hand)
Tests: 4
Duration: 1 minute ea.
Shots fired Right hand: 13
Shot fired Left hand: 13
Total shots Fired: 26 (same result in each test)

Basically this means that in this case i'm getting 5 less "main gun shots" over a minute's time if i choose to use multi ranged. So to not lose effectiveness I need to have my offhand gun hit in 13 shots for as much damage as my main gun does in 5. Rougly it has to be a bit less than half as good as my main gun just for me to do the same damage over time that I do using one gun. This is a LOT of IP spend just to break even. To play it on the safe side i woudn't want anything less than half as good as my main if i was going multi ranged.

By the figures above the "main gun" rate of fire is approx 38% slower when used in multi ranged. 18/min one shot per 3.333 seconds and 13/min once every 4.615 seconds. (4.6-3.3)/3.3= 38% slower (Thanks to docmax for the math on that). This tells me that whatever you do... do not hold low ql weapons in your offhand or you will lower your damage over time pretty badly.

Food for thought. Your own tests or thoughts are welcome.

-Dovve

[______________Krneki]

Yep, that's what's it like in pratice. In theory it's a bit different but the numbers look nicer.

Say you got 1 mil Initiative so you fire at 1/1. Using 1 weapon it would fire 30 times in 60 sec. Using 2 weapons you will fire 20 round with the first one and 20 with the second one, with total of 40 shots. So to calculate if it's worth it, those 20 combined shots made by your offhand must be higher then 10 combined shots from your main weapon.
If you wield 2x QL 200 (fat chance ), you'd roughly do 33% more dmg over time using this setup then using 1 weapon.

Also to note is the mechanics behind multiwielding weapons is attack/attack/recharge cycle instead of attack/recharge cycle for using one weapon. So if you are dualwielding weapons that have slow recharge you will profit more then if you are dualwielding weapons with fast recharge and slow attack rate.

[_____________Borrace]

fix multi wield

[____________IronTide]

Good test. I'd like to see it repeated with a higher multi-ranged skill.

[______________Lacaan]

fix multi wield

[Jynne]

I think the only people who can afford to multi range for damage are adventurers, and then mostly if they have one of those multi-range buffs and use an off-hand weapon with a low multi range req for its QL.

Home defenders are horrible multi wielders, they have incredibly high multi-range requirements for their QL. Even an adventurer with their aqua multi skill really can't practically afford to pull it off.

If you want to multi shotguns for more than looks, check out OET Urban Snipers... I think their multi range reqs are lower and they have flingshot too. They look kinda stupid though

[Dovve]

Last night I implanted my multiranged skill up to 314 from the 145 (i'm still not spending IP on it yet) I had in the tests above. I am going to repeat the tests to see if it has any effect on the speed penalty.

You are right about the home defender's multiranged reqs, they are absolutely insane. The OET has nice damage and fling but you are right. They are ugly and have a 4m range.

Multi-ranged does need a tweak for sure... either the reqs need to drop or the speed penalty needs to be reduced. As it is right now it is a "for looks" skill only.

[Jynne]

I don't think higher multi skill helps... I used to dual wield Home Defenders, and it was only effective before level 80. In the end, I couldn't afford the IP to wield a high enough QL gun in my off-hand to overcome the 'min damage goblin,' and I ditched shotguns and multi-range altogether during full IPR.

Dual defenders sure look cool though, especially in a pair of mirror shades and a nanoarmor trenchcoat.

Edit:
My personal advice, having done this before, is only to look into using multi-range with defenders if you already have enough ranged init to shoot at 1/1 speed or can afford the huge IP costs for both ranged init and multi-range. Defenders are great weapons, but they need plenty of init to max out and combined with the temptation to dual wield them, they turn into a major IP sink. Spending IP on trying to dual them basically killed my ability to solo between level 70 and level 110 when I did my full IPR.

[Dovve]

That is good adivce

The only reason i'm even considering it is that all my base skills are now maxxing out for breed and I don't have a lot to spend the IP on. I will be maxxing ranged init for sure.

I have to do some more tests but its looking like I will need at least a ql 100 Home defender in my off hand to break even. Thats about 650 skill. Luckily i have been able to get to 314 without a drop of ip spent. So raising it another 300 or so points "just for looks" won't be too horrible. They do look good

[charleyd]

How do the special attacks work?

I mean, does dual wielding two weapons with special attacks mean you can get twice the number of special attacks in?

[Jynne]

No, you get one special even if both weapons support it. However, if your off-hand weapon has a special that your main-hand doesn't, you get to use that special too.

Ie, if your main hand is an Electronicum V3 (no specials) and your off-hand is a Custom Desert Reet, you'd be able to get the fling and burst from the off-hand gun anyway.

[____________IronTide]

Originally posted by Dovve
Last night I implanted my multiranged skill up to 314 from the 145 (i'm still not spending IP on it yet) I had in the tests above. I am going to repeat the tests to see if it has any effect on the speed penalty.

Thanks for going the extra mile dovve. Even one extra attack per weapon (at that small an increase in skill) would significantly improve the outlook on multiranged.

[Dovve]

Four more tests of multi ranged with my higher implanted multi ranged skill showed no speed increase. I did the same test, over one minute's time same weapons.

[____________IronTide]

Thanks again dovve. I'll leave multiranged scratched off on my to-do list.

[_____________Borrace]

FIX MULTI WIELD (bump to the top)

dovve's work should not be over-looked!

by the way, great map.

[Nova]

look this "test" here too

[_____________Kormath]

Well, the last post in this thread was quite some time ago. Have any of the patches this year improved the multi-ranged situation at all?

[secondkenlon]

No, but when they do the init recharge fix, I suspect it'll need to be looked at again.

[Phione]

Just so you know... Blackmane had a reply on the enf forum explain the effect of multi wielding.
Basicly, he said instead of speed cap at 1 hit every 2 secs, it's 2 hits every 3 secs. (or suppose to work that way).

[locomdenom]

Well, the cycle is attack/attack/recharge for multi-wield. Therefore, since attack and recharge both cap at 1, a 3s time for a full 2 weapon cycle makes sense.

Fix multi-wield.