Exploiters, overequipping and the rest.

[_______________Leroy]

Seems to me that so long as people are using buffs and implants that are in the game then it is ok. That is part of the social balance in the game. I.E. If someone takes the time to do missions and make the cash they need to buy higher weapons or armor and the tip for buffs, good for them. They are using not abusing the the social enviroment they are just using it. It's not really that easy to do all the buffs and implants needed to overequip not to mention the high cost. If something has to be changed then perhaps just reduce the amount of over equiping. For example, set lvl limits between characters just like in grouping. Dont let a lvl 100 trader buff a lvl 30 soldier. Make the soldier find a trader that is in his lvl range thus the buff will be less. I really think the buffing to overequip needs to stay at least in some respect. So many professions rely on that. I am an Adventurer and I dont have anything to sell in the way of buffs. So the option to get help from another player in equiping armor or weapons is a huge help to me and makes the game all the better.

Another thought on the whole idea of change. It really seems to me, the game at some point needs to be left alone. Let it run it's course. There are always going to be people not happy and people that will find every little exploit but that's the fun of it. By allowing the game in all its good and bad to run its own course the players will soon develope a social structure within the the game that makes it unique and fun. The out come and result is something that no can predict. But will usually surprise everyone.


Hope this all makes sense....

Jonzinator
lvl 76 ADV in Rubi-Ka

[___________killahsin]

sigh... the point is, overequiping cant be done by every class, it UNBALANCES the game. Sigh.....all the ubertwinks here come to complain lol.....

[________________cman]

i use all ql 200 gear , and it wont be affected by the changes...i meet the stats or am close enough in everything that i dont have to worry.

Asumming (this is a *huge* assumption) that they code it correctly, and lower mobs dmg/AC proportionately...it should be ok.

Traders will be a true nightmare in PvP now....not only will their debuff lower my attack rating so i cant crit, buff his nanoskill so he can cast top lvl nanos...now it will turn my ql200 gun into a ql100 peashooter as well.

Oh well suppose ill survive, but i think trader debuffs should do 50% in PvP, it is one of their attack skills really

[Miriandel]

Ransack = 190% nano resist.
Support beam = 100% duck evade.

'nuf said.

[____________dixlexia]

FINALLY SOMEONE WITH SENSE IN THIS FORUM. everyone think that the trader has it made with the wrangles when in fact when we do a wrangle we get screwed becuase we lose in our skills when we give someone a wrangle.poeple who are not traders seem to have no knowledge of this. WE give YOU our skills for 3 minutes basically.!!!!
THANKS FOR BRINGING THIS UP
Won't be a twink anymore? Why don't you look up "Gunsei" in the people lookup and tell me how the one and only character I play can be a twink?

Or click here. http://community.anarchyonline.com/c.../1/name/gunsei



I have read this. You know as well as I do that the problem with the high level game isn't mobs HP and damage though it is ia little extreme. While not soloable, it is doable in groups. The ONE AND ONLY reason Funcom is making these changes is for PVP complaints. So what do they do? They reduce the damage done in PVP by half and then effectively reduce it in half once more by changing the overequipping requirments.



No, wrangles will essentially become useless. Why? Because think about it. Even if used in battle sort of like a 3 minute "Challenger" to any other class, with the reduction in the Traders OWN skills (it costs the trader skills 3 minutes to wrangle you if you didn't know) it will now leave all his nano skills below what he could be using, but it will also reduce his weapon below 80% and effectively shut them off for the duration of the wrangle.

Not only will wrangles be thrown out the window for money making, but they will be useless in battle as well.



Deprive skills is 100% resist, and Ransack (stacks with Deprive) is 190% resist. It does take awhile to land a Ransack but it will happen. It DOES happen. Just think about it. Right now Traders can pretty much nullify any NT because they cannot overequip and use overequipped spells. Would you want a Trader to be able to stop ALL chars from attacking? Damage is halved for Trader yet their Health Haggler lines of nanos return full healing back to them. They can damage you and heal you in the same attack AND stop you from attacking.

I might play my Trader again. I'm just pissed that Funcom even has the nerve to SUGGEST incomplete solutions.

The problem isn't Trader, the problem is everything. Why do Soldiers have Rifle Mastery? Why do Fixers have Green burst skill yet Soldiers have Riot Control? Why do Doctors have Iron Circle? There are plenty of reasons and ways to overequip from other classes buffs because that is what makes the game fun. Right now every character has one advantage over another and lacks in other departments. Buffs are useful because not everybody has them. Yet after this, there won't be any point in them because they aren't self sustaining and literally there isn't enough NCU in the game to sustain the average Soldier or Enforcer that is JUST COMPETING. [/B][/QUOTE]

[_______________Snarf]

Hi Gaute,

Perfect. Thanks for taking the time to think things through this time. This is exactly how it should have always worked.

Snarf

[__________________A²]

ony thing that sparked my interest was the IP reset.. i watsed tons of un needed ip into useless stuff that got nerfed threw patches...


-OxoTek
-129 nt

[_______________greve]

That thing about put your Skills to 0 is sure a good thing to have.
My suggestion is that you only should be able to do it once in the characters "life".

It would be great for us whom missplaced IP's when we wore to young in the game to erelize the fatal in doing that but still likes the character too much for throwing it away..

What do you fokes say about that?

[____________dixlexia]

Originally posted by killahsin
god people forget that this 'over-equiping' cannot be done by all, so it leaves certain professions 'uber' while others fall to the wayside. Which in turn takes out the 'diversity' of the game anwyays. at least now this will bring some of the people in this game off, their mental clouds. its a dmg point decrease based on percentages, not a dequip like the past attempt, this is a fair attempt at balance, the best one so far. Fc seems to know what their doing this time.

Sorry but i disagree. Why cant it be done by all poeple a buff here and a buff there and it can be done by anyone,and that IS NOT an exploit,its all part of the game if you cant take the heat from a better char than get out of the kitchen man

[Brad, STL/MO]

Every single time a Trader casts Deprive Skills, puppets turn to stone?

What, are you NUTS? Are you SERIOUS?

You know ... and I say this as someone who has never been twinked, who only uses his own characters' self-buffs ... I never thought this was that big a problem. I can live with or without most of this. Bet your sweet donkey I'm going to do an IP reset on all my pistol-using characters as soon as you let me, too. But, yeah, I have huge problems with two parts of this.

Number one, I agree with the people who say that debuffed weapons and armor should not be less effective than the same version of the same weapon that you could equip at that level. If you're using a QL100 something, and after the debuff you could only equip the QL92 version, then it should perform exactly like the QL92 -- not substantially worse. But oh my ghod, what an ugly piece of code that'll turn out to be -- and it'll have to be calculated at the beginning and end of every buff and debuff.

But much more importantly, number two, stopping the pets in their tracks as soon as the puppeteer gets hit with a debuff is crazy. Lower their attk skills and damage and amount healed to be equivalent to a lower level pet, fine. Stop them dead? And not only that, but don't let the puppeteer kill 'em and activate a lower level pet? Boy, I can't think of a better disincentive to play a puppeteer. This kills engineers, meta-physicists, and bureaucrats 100% dead. I am not exaggerating here.

Look, my primary character is a martial artist. Nanotechnicians have the same problem I do, now. When debuffed, you have to fall back to a lower level attack. So you keep some lower level ones around, say on a different toolbar or whatever. But it doesn't stop us completely, it just screws us up. But with their pets locked up, all a puppeteer has left is their own miserable (mostly non-existent) combat capabilities.

I'd rather you did nothing than do this the way it was described.

[____________dixlexia]

Originally posted by Leroy
Seems to me that so long as people are using buffs and implants that are in the game then it is ok. That is part of the social balance in the game. I.E. If someone takes the time to do missions and make the cash they need to buy higher weapons or armor and the tip for buffs, good for them. They are using not abusing the the social enviroment they are just using it. It's not really that easy to do all the buffs and implants needed to overequip not to mention the high cost. If something has to be changed then perhaps just reduce the amount of over equiping. For example, set lvl limits between characters just like in grouping. Dont let a lvl 100 trader buff a lvl 30 soldier. Make the soldier find a trader that is in his lvl range thus the buff will be less. I really think the buffing to overequip needs to stay at least in some respect. So many professions rely on that. I am an Adventurer and I dont have anything to sell in the way of buffs. So the option to get help from another player in equiping armor or weapons is a huge help to me and makes the game all the better.

Another thought on the whole idea of change. It really seems to me, the game at some point needs to be left alone. Let it run it's course. There are always going to be people not happy and people that will find every little exploit but that's the fun of it. By allowing the game in all its good and bad to run its own course the players will soon develope a social structure within the the game that makes it unique and fun. The out come and result is something that no can predict. But will usually surprise everyone.


Hope this all makes sense....

Jonzinator
lvl 76 ADV in Rubi-Ka

I agree to some extent leroy. i agree that the fun of the game is trying to be better than other poeple and have better stuff but i dont agree with poeple using EXPLOITS to do it. I DO AGREE that using buffs and wragnles tough is by no means an exploit,its just part of the fun

[___________Atrocious]

1. Give engys Time Space and Matter Creation mastery buffs. I have a lvl 43 engy, and I've never unsed wrangle or MP buffs to make my pets(mostly because I'm lazy and don't want to run about getting buffs), but yesterday I made an implant for a high lvl MP and he cast the mastery buffs on me, so I had to check the difference, and it's better, but not that much. HP are low so whenever the bot isn't aggroed I have to run for the door. I have found that to survive I have to set agg/def to full def, and just never attack with my shotgun. I have to let the pet do all the fighting. Once again this nerf comes about because of PvP. People see the MP rock the PvP scene, and therefore nerf nerf nerf. People don't see the poor engys out there that don't spend hours on end trying to find buffs, who barely survives a 55% misson, use their pet as their only weapon and actually invest in tradeskills. I think the picture has been screwed by the engys and MPs out there who are only fighting and not investing in tradeskills. Yes those are probably very over powered, but hell what's the point of being an engy if you don't invest in tradeskills?

2. Traders will be extinct as a profession with the exception of the diehard PvPers who will love this change and those with a rich support char. Why bother getting a buff when the effect is going to only last while you have the buff?

3. You have to merge the two dimensions to get a big enough player base for the game to be viable. Cuz I think(I might be wrong) that people will be leaving in huge screaming throngs.

4. FC has to put tons of money into PR to get a new player base that doesn't know anything about how it used to be, and wipe the boards.

5. Remove all requirements on weapons, since now it's all about skill anyway.

6. One great thing, the game will speed up like crazy, since everyone will become even more of a clone of each other. I can see the player base be 90% MAs, MPs, agents, The remainding 10% will be PvP traders with all Ace titles.

7. The most important reason against this is that I don't think funcom will have time to implement this correctly. It requires a huge PvP/PvM/class rebalance. This is basically more or less a complete rewrite of their system.

I used to be against overequipping, but now I see the fun in it. I'm not even a hard core overequiper(takes to much time), but it's fun to spend a few hrs every 10 lvls or so, to get better implants etc. See what buffs people in my guild can give me, etc.

If overequiping is such an unbalance issue, then the correct way to do this IMHO is to give every class the same ability to overequip. Then the playing field is lvl. All it takes is creds and dedication.

Generally pissed and really afraid of an empty Rubi-Ka. I don't even get this, my engy is all self buff with the exception of two hrs yesterday and I won't be hit that hard with this, actually it will be a blessing to two of my chars, but I am sooooo afraid that a lot of people will leave that the enjoyment of the game disappears.

Sorry I'm so negative, but unless funcom can prove that they can rebalance, actually fix this without breaking something and leave it on testserver for about 2-3 months for a proper test, I don't think its a good idea.

[_____________Barakon]

Rofl i just had an amusing image:

Clan meta sees Omni meta..

Clan meta casts unmake ts on Omni meta

Omni meta says "damnation! that was a low blow!"

Omni meta casts unmake ts on Clan meta

Since all the pets now refuse to respond..

Clan meta hits Omni meta with his pillow with important stripes for 1 damage.

Omni meta hits Clan meta with his pillow with important stripes
for 2 damage.
etc..
etc..
etc..
Omni meta pets and Clan meta pets decide to go to reet retreat.

[____________dixlexia]

Originally posted by Nyadach
All I can say is....ITS ABOUT BLOODY TIME!
*thumbs up*

Not as tough as I kinda expected (and hoped for) but still, a good way forward than the mess we're in at the moment.

you have no clue at all nyadach what this would do to the game. you will playing with yourself and aobut 10 other poeple because this game would absolutely suck without being able to better yourself in this game. i understand that NT has it tough and something needs to be one about that i agree but punishing everyone else in the game is not the way to go about it!!!!!!

[gnuman]

If you do this I would like to have all the money I spend on equipment I can't use anymore. Not to mention all the armor I gave away when I could equip better.

I seriously stand with a couple of fuxX0ret chars if you do this.

And to the pets. ROFL - very well thought through. Do a general debuff (-20) on the engies nano-skill and his pet is useless. Aww comon. There are so many issues in this you can't see at start.

If you implement this you will see another 12.6 patch with the highest levels dropping like flies. And looking on your economic situation I don't think thats quite what you look for at the moment.

Well, Gaute you gave it a try with the nerf-stick. Now go back to the drawing-disk and find a solution that don't turn the game up-side-down.

Believe it or not - I actually like the game now. You fixed a lot of problems, 12.6 is long gone - and now you come up with this... pffft.

[____________dixlexia]

please poeple!!! i understand that some classes are at a disadvantage i absolutly understand that, but WHY PUNISH every other class in the game because of it. FC should focus on fixing ways to improve the classes that are at a disadvantage and stop trying to punish everyone else becuase they screwed up.
Its all part of the fun of the game to try and twinked yourself to be better than everyone one else in the game so please dont take that away jsut fix the problems with the classes that are at a disadvantage without messing up the other classes becasue other wise your starting a whole new WAR!!!

[Doctorkain]

Functional changes, I like them.

Traders, your wrangles were meant as combat boosts to one play or another... they got turned into the over-equiping holy grail more or less by accident. If Funcom HAD intended all these wrangles to let level 100's equip level 200 weapons, they would not be discussing it as a problem. While I understand your duress at the change, with an optional IP-wipe in the chute, tradeskill stores being revamped, and higher-level equipment being lowered in price... things may not be so bad for you.

For those complaining about the IP wipe - I'm sorry, but some people were hit by major nerfs. We're not talking about the guy who spent 5k of IP in tutoring or something to find out it doesn't really work, or the guy who tried riposte and didn't like the effects - we're talking about level 65 Adventurers whom pumped pistol, fling shot, ranged energy, and multi-wield every level to use the awesome Freedom Arms pistols. Taken out of the game and multi-wield reqs raised massively, they got beat down with a ql200 Professional Nerfhammer of Doom. That is NOT a nerf you can just sit up and recover from - and that's just talking about a level 65, not some level 124 NT you worked even harder on. These are character killers, and when things like that happen, you don't want to reroll, you want your goddamn work reimbursed. This is made even harder for those whom missioned hard to get their token boards - that's alot of work that you can't port over to your re-roll.

Soldiers got beat down with nerf sticks (you can debate how hard, but the truth is if they got IP back from what used to be good but now sucks - they'd be very happy), docs got gyped on pistols with the FA's, akimbo Adv's got slapped so hard I hurt thinking about it, MA's have a Blessed-with-Thunder nerf coming up, some old-school Metaphys players never had the chance to prepare for the 1HB/2HB reqs on the Creation line, MA's still don't know if using 2HB sledges with punches is supposed to be legal (???) and good IP spending, Crat's have had their entire profession revamped, Fixers, dear god the Fixers need their IP back to adjust for their upcoming changes!

The list goes for miles. We're not talking about the difference between smart and dumb IP allocation, we're talking about huge changes to the fundemental mechanics of the game, and all the players need their investments to the old mechanics reimbursed. Nobody's going to get free IP resets any time they want to, and we're not going to become cookie cutter characters either - some will use map nav, some will skip first aid, some will use this branch of nanos or that.

Moreso, with these changes coming that are going to alter the usefulness of buffs (both the ones you COULD have casted yourself and the ones others cast on you), you'll have the opportunity to get your IP back if you want it.

Think about it. This list of ideas are ideas for now, and your opinions are important to the direction of the game - don't make knee-jerk calls that will make you unhappy later.

[_____________Barakon]

What I find interesting is that they are proposing these changes when they havent even upgraded all the classes yet...

I hear ppl complain that not all professions are over-equippable, well instead of tearing the game inside out why not figure out which ones are at a severe disadvantage to the others? its probably the ones that have NOT been upgraded yet, who knows how they are going to be improved when their turn comes?


Really Funcom you should finish rebalancing all the classes before you start on something like this...or if its so important to you why not just put lvl restrictions on items and nanos? is that too much work or something? I mean the unique, better-than-average equipment the cyborgs in Tir drop have lvl restrictions I thought that was a great idea, you just have to expand on that not turn the whole game upside down.

[_____________Demetra]

A Level 80 Trader using a ql200 weapon that crits for 2500 vs
a Level 80 Agent using a ql200 weapon that crits for 2500. (There is already a penalty in place in attack skill, mind you)


Fully Buffed using the new rules the agent will will only be criting for 25% of the intended damage of the weapon which is 625.

But the trader has the ability to dramatically increase attack skills using divest and plunder and will be criting for 75% of the intended damage of the weapon which is 1875.

Is this the balance you were looking for? Or do you play a trader?

Katsuri

[______________Emmily]

I like the suggested Ideas (yep, a trader likes them). I will enjoy getting all the wasted IP back, and the plan for degrading weapons based on 25% or more below their requirements doesn't bother me at all. I equip allmost all of my equipment by self-buffs only anyways (except my Vek, that I got a wrangle from a friend for). The changes will actually make debuffs effect non-caster classes about as well as they effect casters.

I think that the reduction in effectiveness will not be quite as extreme as some people seem to think (except at the lower levels). For example. I use a QL107 Vek, this requires a skill of 496. In missions or when grouping and fighting I maintain my Ransack/Deprives and usually run with a skill of 442ish. That is far above the 372 that my skill would have to drop to to make my gun less effective. That means that Traders will still be selling wrangles (as the wrangle would have to be equal to 1/3 of your self-buffed skills to cause a reduction when it ends). As for armor, the worst hit will be Str/Sta (because those are the stats that can be buffed the most). Even so, if you have a 181 Str/Sta unbuffed you can still wear your 240 Str/Sta armor without penalty.

I personally like the changes you are suggesting and VERY much appreciate them being discussed with the community first. Thank you for taking the time and effort to ask us for our opinions and suggestions, and then use our suggestions to help make the game better.

Emmily, Trader (50) on RK2
"I am just a poor girl trying to make her way in the world...so hand over the creds and noone has to die:

"When you feel yourself falling into madness...dive"