Exploiters, overequipping and the rest.

[Painsmaiden]

I am totally against these types of changes for numerous reasons.

First off, I am 100% against any type of change that dumbs down the game so that no matter what I do, there is no real difference between me and John Q Newbie. People take a whole lot of time and effort to get themselves into the best equip possible. Alot of folks find that aspect of the game very very enjoyable. I know I do.

This game, as it should be, is all about the haves and the have nots. If you don't "Have", then you do what we all do and scratch and claw to where to do. If you have the means to make your character better, then it should actually make a difference. I have a good deal of experience (high level) in another modern MMORPG that has strict antitwink coding, DAOC. I will tell you right now that the item/equipment side of character developement is insanely boring. Well, the the whole game is boring, but that is beside the point. Without the ability to teak your character alot is lost. The point is that kids with rich parent will have nicer cars than poor kids and people fighting with sticks will be killed by people that launch grenades at them. To arbitrarily enforce limits in a system that already has limits (read requirements for equipment use) is a double jeopardy situation that further stacks the deck against the player.

If this type of change goes through, you might as well close the stores and just award us new armor, weapons, implants and NCs everytime we level. Since there will be little to no difference in players, I see no reason to shop for better gear, as it won't make a lick of difference.

Secondly, it will make debuffs much much too powerful. Imagine an engineer/mp (self-buffed, non-twinked) vs a trader mob. Need I really say anything more? Dead engineer/MP. Or extent it to <insert your class here> vs trader mob/pc. Do the math and feel the pain.

Thirdly, this will anger so many people that it is scary. If the exodus after 12.6 was bad, watch out. Hell, I left after 12.6 and just now came back since the game looked to be more stable and developed. Silly me for thinking that =/ I evision a great many of the high level folks just up and leaving, since they don't have anything left to do. If you can't tinker with your twink, what's left for you?

Fourth, mobs will be much much to hard. They said a change in aggro radius outdoors, nothing was mentioned about making mobs any easier to fight. There is a REASON that people over equip. If the devs are blind to that fact then I am scared.

Additionally, I hate to say it, but I do not have faith in Funcom that they can pull off such broad sweeping change without breaking 5 times as many things as they change. Time and time again I have seen changes go in and bugs come out. Nearly EVERY time. Changes this big are bound to cause headaches for players and ARK for months to come. Just going on past history here, sorry. 12.6 patch made me leave for a long time. People hate buying bugs every month.

This game has *I think* matured to a point where players have a good idea of what can and cannot be done regarding equipment and all. Most players don't have level 70 chars with ql 200 guns. Some do, but surely not all. Most people do what they can to make their character as good as they possibly can. I know that I do. Now when all the preconcieved notions about what you can and can't do, what will make you better or not is changed this far into the game, people get upset. Yes, Funcom makes the game, but we play it and make it breath, in addition to financing it's life. It is OUR game. If you are against changes like these made at such a late date, for God's sake post. Don't let them dumb down our game.

[Turin]

Originally posted by Psilock
Here's one I enjoyed from the fixer/trader discussion. While not directly about over-equiping the post makes a few points about it.

Im PRAYING this guy was joking. There are people out there dumb enough to actuallt believe this kinda garbage. If they are, THEY ARE STONED!

[_____________Flyhard]

I have followed this thread now for quite a while, and the only thing that would not break more than fix was the idea to acctually make the QL of the weapon U use less important in the calculation of damage. This way, it would still make sense to overequip, but a little less than before.... and at the same time give a small help to the newbees that use weapons at lease 10 QL below what they can use.

[_____________Psilock]

Turin, that was a sarcastic post. But I also agree with you that an IP reset shouldn't be an anytime event based on hours a player played. The flavour of the week characters would be rampant and result in cloning.

I too dual wielded FA with my original engineer which I have recently deleted and rerolled a new engineer using a weak shotgun(have only put 100pts into shotgun). But even though I rerolled my character to the way I wanted I am for a one time IP reset.

As for Over-equipping. Remove it and use a system like the one I described earlier in this thread. That is the way to fix OEing.

Over-equipping is a part of the game yes, but NOT how players are using wrangles and implant swapping to do it. Wrangles are supposed to be a temporary boost to skills just like every one of their other nano programs... like the AC boost for example.

What has happened is that players have taken the game mechanics beyond what they were originally designed to do and thrown the game balance out of whack. One of the primary problems that has contributed to OEing being as big an issue is that Funcom did not act quick enough when they learned that OEing could be done. Most likely they were to busy fixing stability, server and customer issues that are more important than game mechanics.

I find it so amusing when players say that its a social game and that asking for buffs etc makes you interact. That is such a joke of an argument it's not even funny. Why? Simply because you get the same players who spout that tripe that also say they have to turn off /tells so they aren't bothered by people. Not to mention that OEing promotes solo play at low levels as anything an over-equipped player can handle is something that other players will have little effect on. Which means that an OE'd char would waste time and xp with a group where he/she could be soloing 100% missions for tokens.

If the Over-equipping was removed there would still be the fun of finding and equipping new items.
Over-equippers often say they work hard for their OE'd stuff... well if you like working hard now you can work hard for those levels and PvP titles instead of sliding by on cred.

Remove Over-equipping, it breaks the games PvP balance, it breaks the games advancement vs. difficulty balance and all the arguements that OEers give is simply a house of cards.

An IP reset? Allow one as there have been more massive game mechanic changes in AO than any of its competitors of AC, DAoC, EQ(I think) and UO.

[_____________Styzygy]

Originally posted by Julia Pomka
OK i like an idea of reducing daage output if skills are low.

But how about us traders yuo see traders isnt very strong. Cant make a lot of money and the only way to survive is Buffing Skillw Wrangler.

So ok i buf him Skill Wrangler Premium he is generous guy gave me one million for that. But wrangler wears out in 3 minuties....

Be thankful you HAVE wrangles that people will tip for. My main char is a Doc and I can barely make enough cred to replace the nano rechargers and ammo I use when teaming. Nobody tips for heals. Solo missions are impossible.

[____________mgbkurtz]

i had a radical idea last night while playing that i thought would be interesting to share...

credits would be earned like IP, where you would get an increasing amount of money every time you level. the credits are nontransferable and everyone has the same amount at any given level. you could increase your credits by selling objects, doing missions (but you could only sell objects close to your level), and hunting.

money is important when over-equipping and at least by creating a well regulated economic system some of these problems could be solved...

kurtz

[_______________Garzu]

First, I am NT, and earlier I was all in for the nerf, but I have changed my mind , everybody got same chance of overequipping, but of course, at lower lvls, the weapon profs benefit the most from it, that is because the caster profs have a hard time to even hit the mob with a weapon, because of low AMS vs high DMS...

Anyway, at higher lvls, it is hte caster professions that benefits most from it, cause at lvl 150+ (maybe earlier) all the weapon profs can self equip their weapons and meet the reqs, but for me as an NT, I cant do that, I need hard core tweaking and buffs to equip. Dont get me wrong, I can still use my QL 180 Flashpoint without penalties if the nerf goes thruogh, I can even use a QL 190 I believe, but never a QL 200.

So basically, all professions benefits most on it, at some time of their career, weapon profs at lower lvls, casters at higher lvls, should even out things in the long run.

To make the OE nerf acceptable, FC needs to do 2 things at the same time:

1. The overequipping nerf should NOT go through without an IP wipe, an IP wipe would make the nerf more acceptable, cuase then we can change weapons etc.

2. We also need a mandatory de-equip of ALL items if the nerf goes through, that is to kill all the previous exploiting to equip certain weapons without spending any ip at all in for example Full Auto, this would also kill the widely known tutor exploit to equip QL 200 scopes without spending any ip at all in Elec Eng and Weap Smith.


If the 2 of them is implemented with the OE nerf, I am all in for it. Or else I am out of this game, to many benefits to the exploiters.

[prayingmantis]

if you are going to make over-equipped items only give as good as the QL weapon of someone's current skills at a given time then you gotta remove requirements for equipping items or else people will have to spend way too many credits on new guns, etc.

[Sheffy]

Painsmaiden!

That was absolutely, positively, *THE BEST* post I have read on the subject of overequipping. Tons of props for that. You put everything I, and many others, have been thinking for months, into words better than anyone could.

I hope to God Funcom reads your post, prints it out and hangs it on the wall next to the developers and game designers.

I imagine the reason this overequipping "fix" even came into discussion is because of PvP. For those of us who hate PvP and never want to, it will kill the game entirely for every reason you mentioned.

Kudos.

--Tsk

[_________________Sid]

Whoa. This is a revelation. No "Fire, fling, burst, FA = dead NM NT"
Of course, Funcom is still pretending that there's no such class as the NT, so...

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by Garzu
First, I am NT, and earlier I was all in for the nerf, but I have changed my mind , everybody got same chance of overequipping, but of course, at lower lvls, the weapon profs benefit the most from it, that is because the caster profs have a hard time to even hit the mob with a weapon, because of low AMS vs high DMS...

Anyway, at higher lvls, it is hte caster professions that benefits most from it, cause at lvl 150+ (maybe earlier) all the weapon profs can self equip their weapons and meet the reqs, but for me as an NT, I cant do that, I need hard core tweaking and buffs to equip. Dont get me wrong, I can still use my QL 180 Flashpoint without penalties if the nerf goes thruogh, I can even use a QL 190 I believe, but never a QL 200.

So basically, all professions benefits most on it, at some time of their career, weapon profs at lower lvls, casters at higher lvls, should even out things in the long run.

OMG
my jaw dropped when i read this.

even Garzu now realizes this is a bad idea.

I did try to explain this very point,
and that overequiping helps casters with +nanoskill modifier weapons too,
meaning you dont have to spend nearly as much IP to get them on.
(will the modifiers be affeted by OE nerfs? i doubt it..)

so now only blunt-wielding enforcers,
agents, and soldiers, will be able to overequip;
because only they have significant weapon buffs.

dumbing down the game for lazy gamers, IMO.
caps = character stength based only on level = boring

the 2 professions whining for this were NTs and MAs.

well.. MAs just got thier damage boosted
to compete with overequiped weaponusers,
so after this patch they will be overpowered.
ironic, huh?

and the NTs who cry about not being able to
'overequip' nukes will still be able to use
nelebs robe, shades of lucibration, pillows,
or any number of weapons with +nanoskill modifiers.

i dont want to say the sky is falling..
we'll see how they ultimately handle it.
better solutions than the first proposed
change were offered by players..
so we'll see if they took notice.

[__________ChrisF0001]

As another counterpoint, I am totally for these types of changes for numerous reasons...

I also have to say that all this talk of 'The haves and the have nots', 'There will be no real difference between me and John Q Newbie' and even 'There will be no variety in the game' really does strike me kind of unfavorably.

Put simply, it starts to sound like many of the pro-overequippers put a great deal of worth on 'being better than the next guy'. Sure, some people find it fun to optimise their implants and look for the best equipment they can use, and that's a perfectly valid point: but that's not actually being threatened. Implants will still work, they will still allow you to use better equipment, and having better equipment will still give you more of an an edge.

All that's going to change is that two characters of the same level will be approximately equal in power. What's wrong with that? That's what the whole idea of 'levels' is about. That's what levels are used for: they measure the strength of characters and monsters, to allow the system to keep things interesting. All the problems with PvP, impossibly difficult missions and indestructible green mobs come from the level system being broken: and why is it broken? Because the current degree of overequipping makes character level almost irrelevant to character power.

That _must_ be fixed. That's the biggest problem the game has, and it has caused the vast majority of the gameplay problems we're seeing. Can't solo a lone green? Can't complete any missions? Can't hurt human NPCs? Killed in one shot by a grid-camper? Nukes don't do enough damage? Can't fight with those pistols you sank all your IP into? Can't hurt that Doc faster than he heals himself? All of this, one way or another, is the fault of overequipping.

So, please, step back for a moment. Optimising characters will still be possible, it just won't be the only skill needed anymore. Heavily twinked characters will no longer be able to ruin the game of other characters of the same level, but if that's really the only reason you like overequipping, I really have no sympathy at all... And if that sort of person leaves the game in droves, then so much the better for the rest of us.

And what will we have in return? Mobs can be scaled down to reasonable levels again: that's in the article, for all those people who keep failing to pick it up. It will at last become practical to use more than one or two weapons, and play 1HE enforcers, or pistol-wielding Adventurers. It will finally become possible to balance the game properly, as the level system will actually start to work. Maybe we can even get rid of those stupid PvP kludges...

That's the point. That's why it must be fixed. That's why things will be so much better afterwards. Sure, it won't happen overnight: maybe debuffs will start out too powerful, or mobs might still be too tough. But those things can then be tweaked separately, without wrecking other things in the process. There have been far too many bandaids put on the system so far, and the only way to straighten everything out is to sort out the problem at its root: Then, everything else will be so much simpler.

[Bothead]

This is not intended as a flame or whine, though some will probably interpret it that way: Why the h**l can't people spend a few hours learning the game mechanics from trial/error and other players, in stead of demanding nerfs? I am asking this because it strikes me as the only reason that 'overequipping' is actullay an issue. Furthermore I don't care much for the term 'overequipping' for the negative connotations, 'building a strong character' is more approprate as long as we are speaking of non-exploiting. Simply paying for high lvl buffs or even begging for them to equip high ql implants and armor/weapons is *NOT* exploiting. Do I have to repeat this to all you whiners for it to sink in?

I am appalled and dismayed thet Funcom even consider changing the game in such a drastic way, I am afraid of the consequences of a game that is stripped of the (fun) content that maximum character improvement is. What will be left to do besides level up and/or roleplay, if your AC and damage are determined only by self-buffs and how you distribute IP as you lvl? There will be far less individuality and specialization if there is only one 'good' way to go.

As the game is today, I spend more time NOT leveling in between the periods of twinking, because I like having a strong char who doesn't die to yellow mobs in the missions I run. For all those who think twinkers are only interested in using those 'uber' chars to gain titles in PvP, you are tragically mistaken; 60% of the people I know in-game don't PvP, but still spend alot of time twinking so they can do missions with better rewards than 40-50% hard ones. I have a lvl 10 char who I have twinked insanely using items with modifiers (pillows) and buffs from other professions to get maximum ql implants. However this is not for PvP, but when he can afford a plane, he will be able to fly it :-) Can that be bad? Sure, some people are always jealous of stuff that others have and they don't, but thats human nature. Don't change the world (Rubi-Ka) to cater for these people. I like the game just fine as it is, with the choice of either to twink for PvM/PvP, or to simply roleplay and enjoy the world of Rubi-ka.

Last, but not least, Funcom: How much consideration have you put into the inevitabla avalanche of profession rebalancing that will arise from these changes? Not to mention all the balancing you have done now (and is working increasingly well (if you fix the Fixers - had to say it that will be wasted? I say the risk is too great if the goal is merely to satisfy the percentage of your customer base who are still newbies and don't yet know the game properly. There will always be a certain percentage of new players (and lazy ones), who should not be allowed to decide the game content for the rest of us. I believe this is best in the long run.

[camilaen]

Well well.... today's article showed me one thing.. MP's will be even more uber, and poor engineers... Boy am I glad I don't have an engie on my list of chars! The only good use an engie will be then is shield buffs.

So now Funcom will lose even more money if you ask me..

[Neutrox]

At first hand I thought an IP reset would be very cool. I, like everyone else, have wasted IP's

But, I also think about role playing. To me, AO isnt role playing today. For me it is all about lvl's, how fast and how many. This is wrong, it shouldn't be like that. It shouldn't be all about doing team missions and lvl and being the most powerful. As one said on this thread, IPR will destroy the uniqueness of the community, making it even MORE lvl focused, even MORE focused on power.

Well, I want and I dont want IPR...

I guess I will settle for the 'dont want' I can live with my ip waste. Im lvl 95 now, im starting to get a balanced player...

Please, no ip reset

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by DrCam

So now Funcom will lose even more money if you ask me..

they certainly have an enourmous set of balls

people are leaving DAoC, where i hear character strength
really is based entirely on level, to come back to AO. .
because the DAoC mentality bores the piss out of everyone.

i thought they would have gotten the message re: what players want
after 12.6 and the outrage at OE nerfs on the test-server.

players then asked for a POLL (1 account 1 vote)
to somewhat settle the debate once and for all.
never happened.

i wish they'd come out with another article about
what they finally decided on. so that players could
offer their input. but maybe, after almost 700 posts
here (21848! views) and countless other threads..
they just got sick of listening to us?

EDIT: new article just went up. lol.

well.. they're gonna do what they're gonna do.
then it's up to players to decide if they like the game that's left.


(..absolutly MASSIVE balls . . .)

[_____________Psilock]

I quit DAoC to come back to AO and guess what... the ONLY reason I'd consider leaving is if the over-equipping remains in the game.

When I first started AO way back at release I used to PvP with my gimped MP Psilock... I lost every single time due to pets being broken. (I actually came close to winning once even with my attack pet only attacking my enemy AFTER I died)

Currently I play an Engineer and a Doctor that fights with MA. I would never consider fighting in PvP due to the fact I'll get wiped out within seconds due to some over-equipper. (Sorry, asking for buffs and having cred does not mean you have skill or talent either in-game or PvP)

That means that one of the primary reasons why I play MMOG is taken away from me as my main goal is for PvP.

Every reason that an over-equipper has given simply does not make sense when you look at the broader picture. removing OEing does not dumb down the game... finding buffs and figuring out implants is very simple for anyone with even a low education. (Grade 8 would easily suffice).

OEing is, as a previous poster said, all about beating everyone else in PvP and trying to "own".
Just the other day I stopped a teamate from fighting a lower level over-equipped Trader in the arena. Because my friend is new to AO he was not aware of over-equipping. Well it turns out the level 15 Trader had a level 44 shotgun while my 22nd level adv friend had a QL 15 pistol.

To me PvP titles are about as valuable as Olympic medals in figure skating. (That's sarcasm for those not up on the news.)

[_______________Odaen]

I did not see any mention of effect on implants. So its still ok to buff in order to place implants on? I guess one of the problems I have with these changes is I no longer understand why some buffs exist in the game at all. Whats IC or wrangles for now. Do you really expect traders to remain debuffed (from wrangling) while grouped so that the team can stay buffed? Its hard enough to get a single wrangle out of a trader per mission much less constant wrangles. Would be kinda hard for a trader to heal during battle now wouldn't it if constantly debuffed due to wrangles. Then again who am I kidding, no trader will constantly be using team wrangles so I guess that means that wrangles are now obsolete. Back to implants, I wonder if funcom thinks people should keep their treatment at 950 to use those implants. Hmm, is it even possible to get 950 in treatment without buffs? Somehow I don't think so. Then again if treatment wasn't really meant to wear the implant but only to install it, why couldn't a qualified surgeon install the implant for me in the first place. Doesn't make sense does it. As for making buffers more important to the group, does funcom really think that people will overequip regularly and depend on team members' buffs to get the full damage on a weapon or AC on armor. I don't think so. They will just use a lower weapon and armor, thus no one will depend on the buffs, thus making buffs mostly useless. No one in their right mind would set themselves up to depend on a buff constantly. They don't mind depending to equip, but to use a weapon or armor effectively, I don't think anyone would do this.
So lets get this straight, people would not want to live with 25%reduction in damage or AC so they would want their un-selfbuffed stats to be not less 20% of requirements. Therefore, the buffs from teammates except for nano-skill or health are now obsolete. They used to be used to equip but now that won't help. In affect what I am saying is, things like wrangle and IC were actually only useful to equip or cast a pet and now not even useful for that.
On another note, I would like to see changes in NPC hardness, before implementing the OE patch. This only makes sense. Let us believe that you actually can implement monsters easier to solo BEFORE you nerf our armor and weapon. Doing it at the same time is just asking for us to flame you after you nerf us but do not make soloing easier. You are askin for pain if we get nerfed but the mobs do not get nerfed accordingly.

[___________Councilor]

Originally posted by Julia Pomka

I think Skill wrangler should be increasesed in duration lets say 5 hours . So person who gets wrangler will have some time to enjoy the weapon.

5 hours? eesh. All that would do would have people running to the city every 5 hours and increase trader profits by 100 fold. I agree that the duration should be extended, but I'd say half hour or twenty minutes would be fine. Would make traders very wanted in groups.

[_____________Wenzell]

2 Major twink issues:
Over equipping and Over buffing.

This over equipping fix may or may not work as expected.

Over buffing would still be a major issue, especially at lower level.

A lvl 50 running around with UVC/Essence of Behemoth/doc buff/HOT/Reflect shield.... is still WAY more powerful than it should be. This can be done with anyone using multiple comps/accounts.

after 14.2, you will see people run around begging high lvl for buffs to either powerlvling or pvping.

IT IS STILL NOT BALANCED. SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE !

I could recall someone idea (I think its azzaazzimon's) on over buffing fix. You can only buff teammate, and once the person left, buff will dissappear.

If you really want to fix twinks problem, do it completely, fix the buffs too plz. Dont do it halfway, one good example of your fail planning is your poor individual mission fix.