Exploiters, overequipping and the rest.

[Giganti]

I'm sorry to tell you, but traders are quite strong enough. Let's see... root, pacify, drain, wrangler, AC drain, grid spells, and lifetaps/heals?

Now I admit, many of those lines are less than spectacular. But you can use a crit-shotgun QL 200 EARLY on (50-60 if you're really good), get into a low-light scope for critbuff, and keep up both drains, effectively increasing skill large amounts (300pts or so easily by level 100), which in turn increases damage output/hit rate. I've heard that the damage output formula is 25% * skill/33 * weapon base damage. According to that, an extra 300 points from drains means doing about... 3x3x25... what is that, 175% base weapon damage? Yeah, definately weak, especially when crit-shotguns are the best weapon in the game :/

[___________burrowowl]

At the risk of sounding like i'm too lazy to figure out how to overequip my characters...

So what's the best mechanism for overequipping my MA's hands? Can I loot more powerful hands from high-level mobs? Should I find a better guild, one where lvl 190 MAs are redistributing their old QL 150 hands to less powerful guild members?

Anyhow, the whole conversation is rediculous. Overequipping will exist so long as there are nanos and implants to boost stats. If for any reason these nanos were to lose their usefulness, a couple of classes (most notably the trader) will lose a lot of their gusto.

What we really need are the following: an NPC of the same level as a character should be equivalent to that character. If my lvl 52 crat runs afould of a lvl 52 crat mob, the following should be the case:

1> that mob should have access to the same nanos as me
2> that mob should have similar access to HP and nano as me
3> that mob should have similar access to gear as me
4> that mob should con YELLOW to me (yes, yellow. that's how I con to myself)
5> I'd have no cause to gripe about the outcome of the battle if I lose: we were evenly matched.

Bear in mind that this would mean we'd have a potential for hard-hitting, overequipped MOBs out there. This would be especially dangerous if you've got complimentary MOB types in the same area as each other, buffing, damage shielding, SGing, and healing each other. Well that's what we PCs make them put up with when we team, right?

Put the ACs and the HPs and the Nano pools of these humanoid MOBs to PC equivalent and I think we'd be on to something.

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by burrowowl
At the risk of sounding like i'm too lazy to figure out how to overequip my characters...

So what's the best mechanism for overequipping my MA's hands? Can I loot more powerful hands from high-level mobs? Should I find a better guild, one where lvl 190 MAs are redistributing their old QL 150 hands to less powerful guild members?

This arguement annoys me.

If you dont carry a weapon, of course you cant use
a strategy for optimizing your available weapons.

If you want the ability to overequip a weapon,
make a character that uses a weapon.

You picked an MA because you didnt want to be
bothered with weapons.
You dont have to worry about upgrading your fists.
You dont have to pay millions for QL200 fists.

MA fist damage is pathetic and broken
and FC have said they're fixing it next patch.
You will do better average damage and
your fists willl have a higher chance to crit.

You will do better damage, Funcom will find
a happy balance wherever they want your
damage-output to fall .. BUT you will do the
exact same damage as any MA the same level as you . .
and that's the simple no-math required basic style of
play that defines the Martial Artist class.
For the advantage of not having to work so hard
on maintaining and upgrading your damage-dealing
abilities, you sacrifice some ability to optimize yourself.

I am not saying that MAs should be gimps,
just that there will be less variation between
the strength of one MA vs another same-level MA.

but for some players, that situation would be unacceptable.
to me, character strength based entirely on level is boring.
so I would not play an MA.

You picked your class, and you have the option to play any class,
so go with the playstyle and strategies that best suit how you
want to play ..

[________________Abid]

Sorry funcom, but after watching the effects of so many patches I have no reason to have faith in your treatment of this overequiping issue. As a 111 trader the only way i can get by is by equiping the best shotgun i can, its not like I get lots of shots in so the ones i do had better count. Now even though i can selfbuff myself into almost any shotgun in the game at this point, i still cannot necessarily keep myself at 80% of the required skill all the time... its just impossible. I already appreciate the effect attack skill has on damage output - I can up my attack rating by 350 points with divest/plunder advanced and believe me the difference is quite significant. I realize that people see the 3k trader crits and think we're monsters that do innordinate damage but the truth is with a negative ranged init (low light scope) and a slow gun (as all the shotguns that dont hit for minimum damage on the majority of the mobs) I am in danger fighting a green mob and I personally think that just shouldnt happen. Solo all the way to 200? Are you kidding us or just ignorant? I have "overequiped" armor i cant take on and off, i have an "overequiped" gun that i cant put back on without 6 sets of drains, and yet the monsters I am equipping to fight, the green ones even - will kick my puny little opifex ass unless i get lucky and have at least two crits when i'm on my own. So considering that i can't easily fight things of my lvl, when so "overequiped" i have to wonder about how you're coming up with these definitions. I can barely get by here - either address the issues that cause players to go to all lengths in order to be effective or just stick a finger in the eye of your most interested players, the ones that go to the lengths required to get by. To be honest though, I expect any efforts made to fix overequiping to pretty much make the trader profession gimped beyond repair. Do you really want to address a game wide issue by making traders and agents even more irrelevent than they already are? Watch as everyone switches to MPs (a step below God in effectiveness) engineers (who's bots will be even more amazing after everyone else is beaten with the nerf stick) and Enforcers, maybe its just me, but I dont see that as being an exciting world. Get your act together and try to come up with a solution that doesnt ruin any particular profession or just admit to nerfing each profession in turn and let me reroll something you wont pick on for a while, maybe now's the time to be a fixer finally.....

[___________burrowowl]

Originally posted by Scumbug


This arguement annoys me.

Me too. It's a cop-out, really. I was mostly trying to point out how silly the overequipping debate has become. It should not be necessary for a Soldier or Enforcer (weapon-based combat professions) to overequip in order to deal with con-green opponents. Yet it is.

If you dont carry a weapon, of course you cant use
a strategy for optimizing your available weapons.

If you want the ability to overequip a weapon,
make a character that uses a weapon.

Not quite true. A number of MAs have been using a strategy of becoming "hammer-MAs" that overequip high-damage, lowspeed enforcer-type weapons to try to milk some extra damage out of our marshmallow-like hands. This tactic disgusts me.

You picked an MA because you didnt want to be
bothered with weapons.
You dont have to worry about upgrading your fists.
You dont have to pay millions for QL200 fists.

MA fist damage is pathetic and broken
and FC have said they're fixing it next patch.
You will do better average damage and
your fists willl have a higher chance to crit.

Actually, the main reason I like my MA is that I don't have to deal with ammunition and shopping. Every once in a while I try to get better implants and armor, but I don't have to go around trying to wheedle an extra 3 damage per tick every time I level up. I appreciate that luxury.

You will do better damage, Funcom will find
a happy balance wherever they want your
damage-output to fall .. BUT you will do the
exact same damage as any MA the same level as you . .
and that's the simple no-math required basic style of
play that defines the Martial Artist class.
For the advantage of not having to work so hard
on maintaining and upgrading your damage-dealing
abilities, you sacrifice some ability to optimize yourself.

where's the math skill in begging a trader into wrangling you into a ql200 weapon? That's the part that is humorous here.

I am not saying that MAs should be gimps,
just that there will be less variation between
the strength of one MA vs another same-level MA.

but for some players, that situation would be unacceptable.
to me, character strength based entirely on level is boring.
so I would not play an MA.

You picked your class, and you have the option to play any class,
so go with the playstyle and strategies that best suit how you
want to play ..

I suppose so. That's why I have my crat and my doc, too. Of course, all my characters are neutral, too, so maybe I'm just a glutton for having the game mechanics work against me.

Anyhow, I am all in favor of making sure that PvM combat is doable with reasonably equipped gear. This mostly involves changing the properties of the mobs, not the players. Forcing checks on weapons before attacking would seriously hamper a lot of people.

What may work better would be simply to implement a handful of level limits for certain items. Wanna use a ql150 helmet? Better be lvl100 to do so! Maybe you're level 100, but don't have the requisite Agility for that nice ql150 Flowers Tech armor? Don't waste IP on it, get your Agility wrangled for a minute or so while you put it on. When the wrangle wears off, you're still lvl100, so the armor stays put.

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by burrowowl


where's the math skill in begging a trader into wrangling you into a ql200 weapon? That's the part that is humorous here.

ok,
the highest wrangle is +132 to all primary weapon skills
most QL200 weapons require approximately 1000 skill
*and* have many other secondary requirements that
you must also factor in. (that wrangles do not raise)
So it's not just "wrngle buff me plzzZ!" Overequiping ..
juggling all the buffs, finding items with cool modifers,
designing multiple implant sets, etc. is the most fun,
most challanging feature of AO .. remove (or cap) this strategy,
and you're just killing the same mutants a million times over.

[______________Wahoo.]

Without twink the game is just "Tab" and hit "Q"

I for one would find that boring!!

[XtroXtreme]

I´m amazed that so many people that like juggling number actualy is so verbal. Most accountants I knows are not that vocal about their hobbies. But I guess i finaly found out what those hobbies actualy is

Personaly I think the game mechanisms that they so adore is actualy the most boring part of the game, and one of the parts that keeps draging the game down to quake-like dimensions (Yes I don´t like quake).

[Giganti]

Hey, I was never a huge FPS fan myself, go figure

But I do enjoy number crunching in the game. It's a little challenging, and it's fun to be effective at it, thereby making you stronger than other people your level. I do however think it needs addressing, at the same time.

I like the fact that I can be "uber" by my horrific amounts of twinking and number crunching. It's a kick. But I honestly think a measure should be put in to control people just like ME, because in all fairness, it really is too powerful of a tool.

I think a person who really powergames/number crunches SHOULD be more powerful, but not 3-4x as powerful... maybe 25% better at most. It only seems fair a hard worker gets rewarded, but it also doesn't seem fair that those who just want to enjoy the game should be deeply sub-par in comparison.

[____________Ejeckted]

all I really want is a system that scales . .

no caps .. no limits .. no mediocrity ..

I think the ATK rating, and how it relates to the
damage calculation, is the best place to look for answers.

but however Funcom want to 'solve' this 'problem'
(i disagree with the premise but that might be a lost cause)
I just hope that the solution scales so that a QL200 weapon
in any levels hands will be more powerful than a QL150
which is in turn more powerful than a QL100 . .

if ultimately a player with QL100 skill only does 5pts
more damage with the QL150 and 8pts more with the
QL200.. that's totally ok with me.

I dont want uberness .. just strategy.

If FC think 'overequipping' is imbalancing, fix it ..
dont remove it .. and caps are the same thing as
removing it, since all the players will easily hit the cap
with nothing more than a "WRANGLE plz!!!1".

[Indycc]

So what is the new word of actually haveing an IP reset, is this really a possible and probable event that will happen. When will this happen if it is to happen. I am very curious by this solution so i am curious to hear more word about it.

Burace
lvl 50 engr

[_____________Madriel]

2 things need to be done I think to remedy this situation

first off I think over equiping of weapons/armour should be limited to (aprox) 20% above your current skills (including all buffs and implants, so not base skills) if equiped above that level the damage should scale down, to prevent weapons from suddenly becomming unusible mid fight when you're not paying attention for 2 seconds and to make sure debuffs don't become too powerfull

NCU and implants should remain active, no matter the skilldrop, making it still rewarding to do some number crunching (and I have too little NCU as it is already )

mobs should be toned down again to normal levels though, where it is possible to fight a yellow mob without overequiping like crazy, for at the moment they're just too strong

my Enforcer already is a gimp, and that while she is buffed into her weapon and most of her armour


Madriel - Lvl 49 Solitus Enforcer
Belsameth - lvl 35 Nanomage Meta-Physist

[Chidoro]

First of all, early adopting over-equippers should feel lucky that implants aren't being effected by this proposed change. With all of the treatment booth exploits that were being used the first few months in the game, a one time re-installation should be considered. And it's not because I wasn't "willing to put the time in", I knew about it and felt it was exploiting an obviously buggy system.

Since that isn't a proposed change, it's a moot point

If you no longer have the skills to weild the weapon, why wouldn't your skill use of it decrease. If you want to continue to use an overpowered weapon, you should be required to maintain the buffs needed to keep its usage at top performance. The fact that they feel a player would need to be just 75% of the required skills before a performance hit is even taken is generous as hell.

I wouldn't even mind if it was setup the way someone above mentioned; a level 80 w/ a 100 gun doing 200 avg damage, a level 140 gun 210, and a level 200, 218 damage (although, I would say the damage should cap at 5% rather than 9%). At least the people who went through the trouble got a little improvement, but nothing too unbalancing.

[________BrontoCowboy]

There should be a cap on amount that you can overequip... For example, you can only equip items that are 15 QL above your level, no matter what. Why? Because, doing it this way, it will be easier for the programmers to adjust mob/mission difficulty evenly across the board. You will know exactly what a maximized player at level 15 can face, for example. This would also make it easier for us, the players - because we would know what mobs/missions we should be running.

Secondly, this would place more of an emphasis on strategy/clever playing. Being equipped with the best gear you can find/buy should only be the *first* step to success, not the final step. That should be the goal in all design changes regarding overequipping...

Yeehaw!

P.S. - I love the idea of having to have an empty inventory for the IP reset, as long as it comes by this summer - why? Because it will take away all the implants from the people who used the implant terminal exploit to get limitless Treatment skill...

[Grupert]

Originally posted by Bronto_Cowboy
There should be a cap on amount that you can overequip... For example, you can only equip items that are 15 QL above your level, no matter what. Why? Because, doing it this way, it will be easier for the programmers to adjust mob/mission difficulty evenly across the board. You will know exactly what a maximized player at level 15 can face, for example. This would also make it easier for us, the players - because we would know what mobs/missions we should be running.

Uh, right. Really want that to happen? Can you say 12.6?
Grupert

[schibby]

This topic scares me.
They way I see it I would quit this game if u remove the ability to overequip. It wouldn't even affect me cos i have a MA and a MP, but feeling uber is what makes this game fun. Nerf overequipped weapons will also make all characters do the exact same damage and throw the exact same nanos. A PvP between 2 of the same professions and levels will be in favor of the lucky one getting crits.
Those that overequip have to work very hard for it. I dont think they are having very fun while doing it but they get their reward when they're done.

One more thing. My MP is my primary character now. All MP:s in all different levels look the same, pillows or created shields and staves. I got the idea to do something different with mine, equip an Assault rifle which would make my character do the same damage as i would with attacknanos. This will cost me a lot of IP:s but I would be a pretty rare looking MP. So with the idea to nerf weapons if skills are too low I will keep my pillow and look like every other MP in the game.
Boring!

[_____________Spetnov]

This should be done asap . IP redistribution to go along with it .
End the imbalance . Adjust monsters etc etc .

[________________Krui]

I'm all for allowing people to buff their way into better equipment but having the additional benefit capped. That gives people the option to hunt down a new gun or suit of armor as often as they like or go straight for the best they can possibly squeeze into, knowing that this will mean they don't have to go looking for a new set for a long time to come. Every level they gain will give them an instant upgrade in effect with the same gear, while those sticking to easier missions will be having to camp the mission terminal far more often looking to find the same item again and again. Unless you're in a big guild its still going to be easier and more cost effective to upgrade in big jumps, as now, than lots of smaller ones. Doing this though the monsters HAVE TO be balanced appropriately for a character with equipment rated at their level, not level*1.5. It means PvP will be about player skill and teamwork, not whose guild has the resources to overbuff their members into QL200 equipment at the earliest opportunity.

[_____________Psilock]

Implant stacking definitely has to go.

Over-equipping has to be reduced. I like the idea of equiping better items than your level with the STANDARD methods such as implants and expertise buffs. But Wrangle and Mocham over-equipping has to go. Not all classes can over-equip. One poster said how he was critted for 600+ by an NTs shotgun and that the NT was overequiping. I tell you this incase you haven't figured it out.... No one, and I mean no one plays an NT to use shotgun.
Also the MA, Doctor and MP(although the MP is powerful enough with his own buffs).

I think the players of AO are spoiled and anything that might jeapordise their uber over-equiped and spoiled characters scares them.

AO has become like a D&D "Monty-hall" champaign (that is too much loot and far too powerful characters for their level). This needs to be fixed ASAP and is the only problem I currently see with AO but its a big one.

Over-equipping was obviously never meant to work as it does now. It was intended to be able to let a player use slightly better equipment not QL 200 on a lvl 70.

I love PvP and look forward to it, but I won't go PvPing with my characters simply because I'll die so fast from over-equiped chars it isn't funny. Thus over-equiping is limiting my game and making it far less enjoyable.

Ppl say standard equipers are lazy? No you've got it backwards. Standard equiped chars have a harder time in missions, teams and dungeons that makes for a more challenging play style.
An over-equiped char has a far easier time doing everything from grid travel, missions and PvP.

Funcom, please fix over-equiping so that either there is a percentile cap on the char level, a character Title cap or a hard level cap. Have skills modify the damage done with weapons so that if a Trader casts a team wrangle during combat all players weapons would do slightly more damage with standard weapons due to skill increase.

[_____________Psilock]

Originally posted by Njet
This topic scares me.
They way I see it I would quit this game if u remove the ability to overequip. It wouldn't even affect me cos i have a MA and a MP, but feeling uber is what makes this game fun. Nerf overequipped weapons will also make all characters do the exact same damage and throw the exact same nanos. A PvP between 2 of the same professions and levels will be in favor of the lucky one getting crits.

Everyone likes feeling "uber" but personally I like to feel that way because of how good I am, not my equipment.
This point makes zero sense. Right now you will have PvP between two players of the same level and prof do the same damage because they will both be over-equiped. I will not do PvP (and thus loose enjoyment) because I"m not going to bring my standard bot into battle to face something like a 87th level Engineer with a slayerdroid.

Originally posted by Njet

Those that overequip have to work very hard for it. I dont think they are having very fun while doing it but they get their reward when they're done.

Are you saying I don't work hard for my levels without over-equiping? A standard equiper works harder for his levels than an over-equiper by far. There is no risk to getting a wrangle or mochams buff other than the gouging price of 500k cred.

Originally posted by Njet

One more thing. My MP is my primary character now. All MP:s in all different levels look the same, pillows or created shields and staves. I got the idea to do something different with mine, equip an Assault rifle which would make my character do the same damage as i would with attacknanos. This will cost me a lot of IP:s but I would be a pretty rare looking MP. So with the idea to nerf weapons if skills are too low I will keep my pillow and look like every other MP in the game.
Boring!

Give me a break! First you say that over-equiping doesn't effect you but that you, now you say that if they nerf it you wouldn't be able to use the over-equiped assault rifle you have. News flash!!! you can still use the assault rifle, that is how this game was designed to give choice in char development. If you want to look like every other MP than that is your choice. If you want to wear omni elite armour and carry an assault rifle you STILL can... it has ZERO, Zilch, Nothing to do with over-equiping, it has 100% to do with choice.