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Thread: Exploiters, overequipping and the rest.

  1. #41

    sigh

    I have read the first 2 pages of posts, and now I feel like crying. I was hoping that when the first article was posted everyone would say hey, wait a min, i thought we were supposed to do this. I thought it was crafty, creative, and quite difficult as well to self buff with expertise, my own higher buff, and then someone elses buff. It made this game a challenge for someone of reasonable intelligence; I really thought it was kind of neat. Wow, look how smart I am, I figured out how to get the ql200 on at lvl 80 etc. So, do what you will FUNCOM, change your game after I have adapted to it and guess what I say...............I can't wait till the next better thing comes along, then ill bend over, flash my butt cheaks and say CYA. Or maybe ill just go play DAOC right now........humm.............

  2. #42
    You kinda hit the nail on the head SteroidJerk. People who don't know how to overequip are just people who either don't want to (roleplay'ers and so on), they don't know how to (wll, try to investigate a bit) or people who are just plain and simple lazy.

    So let's get all these people happy by getting all the people who spend hours on researching and buffing. People who had great joy and a big challenge in doing so.

    I wonder why we havn't seen that many posts from agents, traders and enforcers who seems to be the best buffers in the game. If you don't write your opinion the "lazy bunch" is pulling this major nerf off.
    ~Lone

  3. #43

    Smile nice...

    these changes are (imho) great! i have, as a buerocrat, had my ass kicked countless times when trying to pvp because the ppl i fought were all equipped in über armor so my pet and spells did extremely little damage
    (this is also partly caused by the stupid implementation of dmg restriction in pvp, the 40% of hp max dmg was ok, but the other with little damage from nanos sucked... should've made them more powerful, taking into consideration the weaker nanospellers.) and i think that the players who are so overeqed should be punished, and the way you describe here is quite fitting. no fair that players who are lvl 30 run around with ql 100 weapons and plug down those who are not fortunate enough to have ppl in guilds that buff them, or chose not to be part of a guild.

  4. #44
    Gaute,

    Your outline seems reasonable PROVIDED:

    1. All these changes are implemented at the same time.

    2. You do the IP reset when this goes live.

    3. You re-balance the lvl 80 - 200 solo game <--MOST IMPORTANT!!!!

    If you don't rebalance the solo mob encounters, you will make it impossible to solo. I solo all the time, and if I can't, I don't really have an interest in playing the game.
    Lasz

  5. #45

    Thumbs up Fair & Balanced

    A modest and workable proposal that is pretty fair to everyone when taken as a whole [knocking down Mobs, making debuffs valid, etc].

    Keep in mind at shotgun skill 300, at 20% you can still get wrangle from a trader [60pts], which is much more than the general buff and equip a Vektor thats say a good 15 levels above you and not take any penalty at all. Most people get to that kind of level by 45-60 [which is just before the curve on the monsters really goes up, which hopefully they will cut back on as discussed in the article].

    Same goes for say Iron Circle 20% of 200 strength is 40, which means i can get Iron Circle from a Doc and use my general Str/Stam buffs to get into armor a good 10-15+ levels ahead of me and take no penalty.

    The only thing that has changed is the level 25 player going and getting a 100+ wrange to equip a weapon 50+ quality levels over them. And this is going to ruin all your fun? Hello?

    You will still be able to overequip, at mid levels [45+] your going to be able to overequip for a fair amount.

    Hence - Your Buffs still have market value, I will still need to
    tip agents for FG and Docs for IC and Enforcers for Essence, get a grip.

    Instead of threatening to quit, lobby Funcom to make the penalties a little less drastic in scale [the percent], then actually test it on test live when it comes out then pass your judgement.

    Personally I think the penalty curve is a bit too drastic, as someone else earlier in the thread pointed out - a QL 100 weapon wielded in the hands of a Level 50 player should still yield *some* small advantage and not have it end up being less valuable then a ql50 weapon. At worst it should end up having the value of the equivelent weapon which matches the players skill.

    The proposal is good, it solves uber twinking without really punishing everyone (well except for those who think not being able to have a weapon 50 or more levels above them as punishment). Right now I am level 54, using QL73 Rider in the left hand and 69 in the right. I got a trader wrangle, and under this system I would be able to keep it without penalty!

    Pets - Most pet professions are as dependant on their pet as a soldier on their trusty weapon, so it does NOT make sense to disable the pet, but rather scale down their damage like the weapons if somehow the pet was created well above the player's skills [beyond the 20% threshold].

    Av.
    Last edited by Avatarius; Dec 15th, 2001 at 18:30:41.

  6. #46

    Re: sigh

    Originally posted by Steroidjerk
    I have read the first 2 pages of posts, and now I feel like crying. I was hoping that when the first article was posted everyone would say hey, wait a min, i thought we were supposed to do this. I thought it was crafty, creative, and quite difficult as well to self buff with expertise, my own higher buff, and then someone elses buff. It made this game a challenge for someone of reasonable intelligence; I really thought it was kind of neat. Wow, look how smart I am, I figured out how to get the ql200 on at lvl 80 etc. So, do what you will FUNCOM, change your game after I have adapted to it and guess what I say...............I can't wait till the next better thing comes along, then ill bend over, flash my butt cheaks and say CYA. Or maybe ill just go play DAOC right now........humm.............

    Wanna know why this level 53 agent isn't really responding?
    Cancelled my account couple days ago. Yall can say yippy. I know several other people that played agents. They're gone too. Tired of all the crap basically. So you all can have your new game. But any of you left that have played for more than 3 months go look around. See anything different? I did. No people!! 2ho, mmd, the bridge. If FC isn't throwing some kind of casting call then it's all empty most of the time.

    Hope all the new peoples like the game. Should have been around pre 12.6 patch era. Was a blast. Wish I could have played that game with todays stability.

  7. #47

    'overequipped pet owners'

    The biggest thing MP's have going for them is their buffs, and all the pet owners benifit from them. Eliminating control over a pet just because our buffs ran out is going a little overboard. It effectivly turns us into a useless target until that pet expires, or we zone or something. How will an enginner, with an untimed robot he created with +70 buffs, survive if his 50's drop and he has no control over his pet? He can't even terminate it to create a new one?

    The pet needs to somehow take into account the buffs, and react accordingly. If you've got +70 in buffs, and they fall, the pet shound't stop responding to you, especialy if rebuffing is beyond your control. Here's what I could see working for pets:

    Rather than the pet stops responding to you, nerf the abilities of the pet down to one that you're at 80% of the skill required to summon. ie: you pull out a 150 ts/mc manifestation. You lose your buffs and youre down to 80 ts/mc, until you buff back up, your pet now attacks and acts like a 100 ts/mc pet. You don't lose your pet, you're not a useless sitting target, but you don't have your uber pet you used to have. When you can get your 50's and 20's back up, your pet's 'nerf nano program' expires and he returs to a 150 ts/mc manifestation (or ~125 ts/mc if you just buff back up to 100)

  8. #48

    ok here goes

    I just want to say one thing, if you spend your ip correctly, you DO NOT have to over equip to solo, until lvl 120 or so. I have damn 70 ql ma implants at lvl 100 and i can still solo fine, because i focus'ed my ip's in the right department. Theres multiple sides to every story, with the IP realocation which i won't touch. It's a good decision allowing players to choose if they want the ip realocation or NOT though. the overequiping based on percentages rule is very good and i like it.

    Nuff said

  9. #49
    Woah. they actually are listening to us.

    /me gives Cosmik a BATCH of cookies!
    "By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising: kill yourself." --Bill Hicks
    "Have we turned into gerbils? People are paying money to walk up invisible steps over and over again." --Dennis Leary

  10. #50
    My thoughts:
    I don't think that armor should be included in the "equipment effectiveness" changes. Not because of any gameplay reasons, but because it just wouldn't make sense if it was.
    You don't actually "use" armor. Armor is just something you slap on, and it stops damage. You don't turn it on, trigger it, or whatever. Its one and only "action" is when you put it on. And that's when you should have the skill check.
    "By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising: kill yourself." --Bill Hicks
    "Have we turned into gerbils? People are paying money to walk up invisible steps over and over again." --Dennis Leary

  11. #51

    Hmmm..

    IP Reset: Don't do it. Your proposed method is the best I can think of but its a bad direction to go and to be honest I would think of as a waste of programming time. The people who used tricks to get into stuff they obviously cannot support will never use it. (Such as implants or dual pillows.) Unless you have some better item to tempt them to reset.

    Overequiping:
    1. To those who are whining about how this will cripple you, how this is "part of the fun", and only helping the "underequipers". Get real.. this is a real balance issue that has gotten WAY out of control. Please explain to me how it is fun for an agent to start using the "best" rifle they can ever get only half way through leveling (ex. a lvl ~100 agent using a QL 200 rifle). Its not fun its a dead end. As to crippling your play esp. PvM that is up to debate and may require balancing. (woo hoo they may revoke that 12.6 MoB buff or kill some of that silly 1/2 PvP damage thing.) And as to helping underequipers... bahh.. sure you won't be able to kill them as quickly in PvP but their weapon won't be getting any better.. you buff and yours will.. I'm sure you won't enter PvP anyway if those rules are implemented without being uber twinked it just means that you gotta kill the trader first.

    2. Trader effects and debuffing.. Finally will be fixed! Its stupid how the only classes that were really effected by de-buffs was the nano focused.. Finally a real reason for nano-resistance. This is balance and it is good. As to loss of income.. maybe once the Mobs are re-balanced you can run missions like the rest of us.

    3. The overequiping effects.. I'm not certain how weapon "effects" scale with difficulty but if it is even close to linear then this percentage trick should work. But one question for me is shouldn't the penality be % over 20% so it would be -5% damage for 25% over and -30% for 50% over? And to "simplify things it should be based on the requirement "least met" so if your rifle skill is 21% below and your aimed shot is 30% below then your penality should be based on aimed shot. I guess you could put some additional penality like for ever 5% over you recieve an additional 1% penality.. so 50% over would be 36% penality. Dunno about that though.. I would start out with basically making it a over 20% cap as described and balance from there.
    -Entropy:
    The only game you cannot win...

  12. #52
    Stop trying to turn a game of chess into a simple game of checkers...


    After a LOT of rerolling, the only profession I have any interest in playing anymore is the Engineer, I use only self-buffs, never had a wrangle in my life, only use implants I can find/buy/make myself. One of the fun things for me is to see how strong a bot I can make by pushing my equipment to its limits, if you make it so my bot stops responding just because it is too high QL.. bleh.


    It seems like most of the ppl saying these are such great changes are just newbies who havent learned the game yet or whiny NTs who are bitter about losing their ability to equip 2 pillows. You people just want to change AO into communism! Everyone will be the same, there will be little incentive to try making yourself better in this game because by the laws of the game you will always be made 'equal' even to those who are still playing there first char with its thousands of wasted ips and its bad choice of weapons etc...

    Just working on freaking adding content, ppl just quit sooner or later because the only thing in this game is MISSIONS and TEAM-HUNTING! Bars and nightclubs?? damn if I want those i'll go to a real one.

    I am guessing most of us live in democratic countries(if you live in a communist country you probably wouldn't have access to this game), walk down a city street, see some ppl have nice clothes, nice cars, some have less nice clothes, less nice cars, what do you do if you want nice cars and nice clothes? you strive toward getting them, plain and simple.

    I didn't agree with the pillow nerf, if you had done beta-testing properly you would have seen how stupid it was to give them such big bonuses in the first place! Point is this all should have been done in beta, its too late to change the game now because it isnt going your way.

    ok, /me finishes ranting.

  13. #53
    Xombie: a bit ago I suggested a penality for uber overequiped armor... that was tied to they armor type.. Str/Stam effects weap/phisical initiatives, Int/Psy effects nano costs/initiatives, Agy/Sense effects run speed and perception, etc.. It is more in keeping with the passive nature of armor most armors. But I suspect would be additional coding and am willing to accept a AC reduction if means we can get thise overequiping fix in quicker.
    -Entropy:
    The only game you cannot win...

  14. #54

    Thumbs up

    This still does not completely solve the effect that Nano Casters have, and the over equiping of armor BUT IT IS A GREAT START

    Nanos:
    Make the nano skill implants better (I know that this would be bending the pattern a little bit, but... it may need to be done). And at the same time, decrease the time that the MP buffs work (3-5 minute range, or make them self only). This should solve a lot of complaining about nanoskills (again, it's a nerf though :\).

    Armor:
    (little story first) As a lvl15 Soldier at one point pvping (way back when), I had a lvl28 gun equiped (high damage, slow fire turbine) and did 1 normal and 3 burst damage to some lvl14. How did he get his AC that high?
    Solution: ENCUMBERANCE. Right now it seems that I can have a full invintory and not feel a thing. I think that I have ever been encumbered once. Having stats that are much too low for my armor should cause encumberance and possibly evade/init reduction (combat reduction seems to be the only way to get somethings into peoples head). This can be explained easily with all types of armor. Str/Agi armor is too tight, and you cant move enough. Str/Sta armor is too heavy and you get tired from wearing it (anyone here a hockey goalie?). Psy/Int armor the person is thinking too hard to keep the armor from completely taking over his body.

    BUT.... please keep in mind that by destroying inventiveness and creativity of getting all your level 200 items on at lvl110 is going to create a LOT of dissent. I have noticed a trend of what your game fixes have been - NERFS. It seems that the more powerful players have been adversely effected by the changes, shouldn't they be the ones that are rewarded for their efforts? At the same time however... I do see how this will help balance the game for lower levels as 150 pts is not even close to 20% of some skill requirements... but that is all that some are away from equiping 200 weapons at lvl110.
    General Mege
    Minister of Political Affairs
    M.O.T.H.E.R.
    Mobile OMNI-Tek Heavy Emergency Response
    --
    Mege - Atrox Union Man
    Meger - Atrox Worker
    --
    Our alliance already has a name - OMNI-Tek.

  15. #55

    Re: ok here goes

    Originally posted by killahsin
    I just want to say one thing, if you spend your ip correctly, you DO NOT have to over equip to solo, until lvl 120 or so. I have damn 70 ql ma implants at lvl 100 and i can still solo fine, because i focus'ed my ip's in the right department.
    I'd like to see a agent solo to 120 with this weapon:

    http://ao.hackersquest.com/show.php3?id=122227&item=1

    Its one of the best there is available for the profession sadly enough. Only thing that makes it possible is using ql 200 version at 100.

  16. #56
    All I can say is....ITS ABOUT BLOODY TIME!
    *thumbs up*

    Not as tough as I kinda expected (and hoped for) but still, a good way forward than the mess we're in at the moment.
    Major "Nyadach" Prabel
    Neutral and proud of it!

  17. #57

    Why?

    Why change the game so drastically? You know you are going to lose a lot of people if some of the these changes are implimented. The only thing I liked from the article was the IP reset, thats about it. The buffing for weapons and armor should have been seen a long time ago back in the beat and fixed, not when we are six months into the game. I think the buffing sperates the hardcore players from the causual players that pay it every so often and don't really get the whol aspect of the games. I, myself have not buffed myself to put on armor of guns yet. Its just not something I do, but I would hate to see others that enjoy doing this have it taken away.
    Lieutenant Glen "Madeux" Callagher
    Special Forces, Division9 (R.S.G.E.)
    "Div9 Special Forces Leads the Way"

  18. #58

    Nope

    Interesting Idea Funcom.

    But I dont think your looking at the big picture here.

    What many of you fail to realize is that some professions are making a living by offering these services. Since missions are too tough for many Docs, NTs, Traders (ya I know some can solo - its all relative) they generate cash for equipment by giving a yell on the shopping channels. Everyone gets help - and the helpers get paid. Thats how the AO comunity works right now.

    And what about guilds that were formed based on the foundation of "helping" others with buffs and overequiping. Look guys, you get the buff once or twice, but the friendships often last much longer throughout AO. So many newbies wont have much of that "helping hand" if overequiping means less now.

    "BUT" im all for it if you keep your promise of the following things:

    1. Reduce the fighting capabilities of monsters somewhat at mid-high levels - to make soloing more viable.

    2. A general reduction in outdoors aggro range so that explorers may go about their business more easily.

    You have promised both of those for months now and failed to include them in any of your patches. Are we supposed to trust you now?

    And this:

    A ONCE-OFF VOLUNTARY "IP- reset". I have to make sure right now the limitations of it! (An IP reset means that you keep your level and experience points, get your skills reset, and IP returned.

    I can already see massive exploit potential thats painfully obvious if this isnt implimented correctly.

    Your talking about doing LOTS AND LOTS of things here on your front page. Not to be harsh or anything be EVERY patch you have released has had numerous bugs - so if all this goes live at the same time, its going to be hell for many of us. Hopefully this will be testing MASSIVELY on the test servers and broken up somewhat.

    And boy do I feel sorry for Fixers. HAHA (actaully its not funny) - now your beefed up mausser is going to dish out even less damage - so the only thing the fixer will have going for them are their excellent run speed and evades......oh wait thats what MA's are for.

    Which means that funcom will have to TOTALLY redesign the Fixer and probably agent classes to go along with this. Your ready to do that right Funcom?

    Nice Ideas here Funcom - but this should have been in the beta or just "shortly" after release. It might be too late now.

    Ill say it again - ADD content to AO dont nerf or remove what little exists.

    ADD ADD ADD ADD ADD etc etc etc

    ps: I dont over equip much but I feel no jealously to those who take the time and courage to do so - I stay out of their way when it comes to pvp - thats the way it should be. The grass is always greener on the other side. Why force your neighber to use crappy fertilizer when he shouldnt have to.

  19. #59
    I am currently playing a lvl25 Fixer, with all but 3 of my implants in the ql50 range the rest are ql30, Ihave a ql54 Mausser and i am looking for a ql57 Mausser. I have ql30ish armour, and 80 NCU's.

    The only thing that is overequipped on my character is the 80 NCU's because to install them I put in temporary implants that boosted my Computer literacy. I am hoping that if you decide to reduce effectiveness of equipment that you treat NCU's the same as implants. I always use my characters Buffs to make sure that my equipment is effective especially my weapon.

    With all of this said I can tell that I am able to do mssions that are about 77 to 78% difficulty (I figure that default setting is 50% difficulty). Missions should be designed so that you can build yourself to the point where it is possible to complete 100% difficulty missions. PvP is impossible for my character unless he's another fixer and so is Solo hunting Hunting in groups is only good for leveling up. It has taken a lot of patience to build my character to this point, and the reason that I originally decided to do this was to be at a level where I have decent healovertime and running abilites and then to start saving to buy a Yamaha.

    At this point in the game anything my character does has no effect on the storyline and this is partially due to the fact that I am playing on Rubi-Ka 2. I have decided that there is no point to having my character level up because once I have done that there will be nothing to do. Another reason is the shopping which takes much longer than I feel should be necessary. It sometimes takes me days to find equipment that is the ql that I need (I seem to have very bad luck in stores), so if I stay at this level I can essentially stop shopping once I have completed equiping my character. There is still a long way to go before the game is over so there is no hurry to level my character up.

    I would very much like my character to have some effect on the storyline. With that in mind I am wondering if it would be possible to implement some missions that effect the storyline so that successful completion would possiblely give a different kind of token, or something like the "you made a mistake" item which has an effect based on how many you get and what ql they are.

  20. #60

    Unhappy

    Well... i'm not the one who ist use heavy overequiping,
    but i understand ppl who like it,
    because it's a challenge.
    And these who invested in buffs to help others
    to overequip. It's part of the game, and i think not the bad part.
    So, the best way would be leave everything as it is ( about overequiping )

    About pets:

    "If your skill drops down to less than 80% than what is required for the creation of the pet you are commanding, it will not respond the next time you command it. It will stay in "/pet behind" modus until you get your skill back to where it was."

    Now, it's really unfair ... you really mean NO command will be accepted ?
    Even not terminate ?
    So you have to wait till debuff is over to use the pet or till the pet dies before you can make a lower lvl pet ?

    imho pets should work like everything else
    ( if these changes will be implemented ) :
    just make pets less effectiv, if the caster get debuffed
    or lose the buff

    /Quantar

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