Exploiters, overequipping and the rest.

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by DOC against PVP
1. When I use a car and my skill level drops too low, I am no longer using that car after zoning. Why can't this be done with ALL wear items or all items except implants {since the game was designed to allow them specifically to be overequipted}? Failing that, the reduction chart is great.

yeah.. um..
they put this change on the test server a few months back,
and literally thousands of players quit. there is a large percentage of players whos favorite feature in AO is
'overequiping', including myself.

Originally posted by DOC against PVP

2. While the IP reset is nice, I would say not to allow it. If you do, I will use it since I have made a few (tons actually) bad decisions from time to time. The game as in real life has a learning curve. If you are unhappy, create a new character and don't make the same mistakes again. Make new mistakes instead....<snip>...but high level characters who do not want to spend all the time building up another character will be able to "fix" all the errors they ever made. Or in the case above, wipe out their old choices they made in order to use items then and spend the points in the ones they only need now that they are high enough.

the purpose is to fix funcoms mistakes, not players mistakes.
since you didnt know about the unequip-on-zone mess above,
i'll assume you're also new enough not to know about the
endless nerfs and rulechanges that wiped out whole
character strategies and again lead to mass cancelations.
players just want the months they've invested in characters
that FC broke given back to them.

[Filik]

Originally posted by Templar Red

Really? Who said this? And when? And where can I read it?

If this were to be the case, it certainly would not be fair... why should MA's do better melee damage than enforcers, *plus* have strong heals, speed/evade buffs, etc. (advantages that Enforcers do not have)?
-Templar Red

This was said in the design document for Anarchy Online. This document was online during the beta and during the start of Anarchy Online. It might be online still, but I can't find it anymore. I suspect it disappeared during the recent reorganizing of the webpages.

The same document said that in a one on one fight, the enforcer should still win over an ma since they were supposed to deal almost the same damage, and since the enforcer could last so much longer.
It also contained the hillarious statement that ma's were supposed to be the bane of nt's. If the developers manifested this through the interrupt thingy, its rather silly.

I do wish I had saved that document..anyone have it lying around? Of course, remember that this document was written before the classes were even playtested, so obviously they might have changed their minds about some of the things mentioned.

Btw, enforcers can also heal during combat..dont forget the mongo line.

-FIlik.

[______________Gnuyan]

Why don't Items show the actual Level at which you can use them?

One obvious thing that shows wrong QLing of Items is NanoCrystals.
Species determines Ability advancement.
Profession determines Skill advancement.

No matter what species you choose, you always get the same ability to advance in a certain skill. Why is it so hard to determine at what level a character will be able to use a certain NanoCrystal? Many NanoCrystals and Items have incorrect QL for the stats required to use.

[TemplarRed]

Sorry for the late reply... I've been away for a week, & now...
good lord, have I ever got some reading to catch up on...

Originally posted by D.Shaffer
It's no secret that board posters are a minority of any fanbase. It's a slice of those who not only have the inclination to put their thoughts on paper but to put it in an area where they can get responces, in this case sometimes extremely hostile ones. However, it IS a slice, and it tends to be across board. That is, if 50% of the posters of a board beleive in something, I'd be fairly confident that 50% of the general population feel likewise. You say you talk to people and they seem to agree with you? How did you ask them? Did you point them to the original article first? Did they read it or just rely on your description? Did you make it a point to ask strangers or people you would tend to hangout with and would likely agree with you anyways?

To be perfectly honest, I never bring this up in-game. I don't point it out, or offer any desciption. I do make an effort to stay in-character as much as possible. Talking game mechanics sort of shatters the RP illusion, IMO. I'd rather do it here. But when it comes up, I listen & I state my opinion, if asked.

It doesn't come up often. When it does, it's usually during 'downtime' in teams (i.e., the team is sitting around, & waiting for the cat who just died or went LD to return). So I'm getting this from strangers (I don't team with friends as much as I'd like to... we all level at different speeds, it would seem). Naturally, one's profession (i.e., dependence upon weapons) influences this a great deal (for this reason, I listen more closely to the players who've tried out a wide range of professions). Generally, most people who are aware & have an opinion on the matter seem to feel that *any* reduction of character capability is not something they'd look forward to.

But strong opinions on the matter (pro or con) don't seem to be nearly as prevalent as they are here .

-Templar Red

[___________Goodpheel]

Originally posted by Scumbug


yeah.. um..
they put this change on the test server a few months back,
and literally thousands of players quit. there is a large percentage of players whos favorite feature in AO is
'overequiping', including myself..

If it was fair across the board, I would have not problem at all with overequiping. But it is not. a person that relies on Nano Programs is left in the cold. Fine, I can get the program loaded up and as soon as the buff is gone I am no longer able to use it. You on the other hand can still use the weapon that you overequipped with no problem at all. If the rules for nano programs and weapons were the same, there would not be this discussion at all since anyone that wanted to would be able to overequip anything they wanted with just a time investment.

Originally posted by Scumbug

the purpose is to fix funcoms mistakes, not players mistakes.
since you didnt know about the unequip-on-zone mess above,
i'll assume you're also new enough not to know about the
endless nerfs and rulechanges that wiped out whole
character strategies and again lead to mass cancelations.
players just want the months they've invested in characters
that FC broke given back to them.

I did not make the beta list although my son did. I have been playing since retail game startup. Yes, I have lived through the nerfings and rulechanges. I have seen various characters slashed to ribbons while others have been beefed up. I have not played a character above the 50 level although I have played various types......usually just in time to have that character nerfed. I have read about the unequip zonning problems, but never had the problem since I have only ever overequipped implants and armor. Everything else I can use I HAVE to have the stats for or they are useless. Still, like I said I would use the IP reset if offered. There are some stupid points in melee init for instance that are useless to me. And if I could get an airplane before the reset, I could dump the stupid ground points in place of air. I might even dump all the points I have in Martial Arts that I use for soloing - tough as a doc - and move them all into things that are just designed for teams. Now that I am getting close to level 50, those things are getting more important.

[___________Goodpheel]

Originally posted by Templar Red



It doesn't come up often. When it does, it's usually during 'downtime' in teams (i.e., the team is sitting around, & waiting for the cat who just died or went LD to return). So I'm getting this from strangers (I don't team with friends as much as I'd like to... we all level at different speeds, it would seem). Naturally, one's profession (i.e., dependence upon weapons) influences this a great deal (for this reason, I listen more closely to the players who've tried out a wide range of professions). Generally, most people who are aware & have an opinion on the matter seem to feel that *any* reduction of character capability is not something they'd look forward to.
-Templar Red

The only time I see or here about this online is when (for example) a level 48 character trying to get to a grid terminal (that happens to be 22 seconds inside of the PVP zone) keeps getting killed by a level 33 character that is severely overequiped and buffed. If they wanted to could down some of the griping from people like me that don't choose to do PVP, then they should set the PVP protection to somewhere between 2 to 5 minutes vice 15 seconds. Then maybe some of the people that are up about the vast unfairness in the overequiping issue will not be as concerned about it.

[___________Goodpheel]

Originally posted by Scumbug
might be silly to you. but it's the absolute most fun thing about this game to me. i love the number game. i love the math of using 4 different buffs and multiple implant sets and any number of wierd weapons/items with cool modifiers to optimize myself.
the actual gameplay .. killing mutants over and over again ..
i find very very boring. but i keep playing because
I just have to get that QL101 stunglove on at level52
just because i've done the research and figured out how.

i have already posted a better suggestion/solution
(somewhere back on page 26 of this thread)
which is simply to make a players ATK rating,
which is only determined by *current skills*
have much more of an effect on damage and
thereby make the QL of the weapon much less important.

This would be a great, but it still only helps the weapon carriers and not the nano users.

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by DOC against PVP


This would be a great, but it still only helps the weapon carriers and not the nano users.

then i will repost this segment of a previous post:


I think the debate between casters and weapon users
is way too caught up in this QL thing. .
"we cant over equip nanos etc etc etc"
but I would really like to look at it a different way,

shift the focus from QL for a moment,

let's talk about damage.

im pulling numbers out of the air here
so bear with the general concept please

say a level 80 NT with decent implants,
a pillow, or nelebs robe, or a gun with
a good mattcreat modifer on it (i've seen 2 or 3),
is casting QL100 nanos. that reasonable?
ok, at QL100 NT nanos are doing roughly
500-1000 pts of damage every 6 seconds or so.
(looking at hackersquest database right now)

is nuke damage affected by armor?
i dont think it is, but correct me if im wrong..
if not, another big advantage to nano-nukes.

now at level 80 what are weapon users doing?
they have implants .. no other items really to help
them up QLs .. but they do have lots of buffs. .
wrangles as well as profession/weapon specific.

I have level 85 Trader right now
using a QL170 Krutt shotgun
damage is listed as something like 30-160 (1000)
but as always actuall damage comes out higher
vs non-armored mobs .. i'd say 200-300 regular damage
every 5secs with the occasionaly 2000-3000 crit.
of course, against armor, that's more like
minimum damage of 60 or so every 5sec and a solid 2000 crit.

now, when im hunting, i watch the damage scroll by
from other people and i'd say that overall i do fairy well
compared to other people my level .. solo it sucks
cus if i dont crit i die but that's another issue ..
however in the end i seem to be averaging out.

so my question/comment/idea is this:

with the whole QL100 nano vs QL170 gun
oh no not fair 'bigger number envy' aside
i'd say the 80 NT with the 100nanos
is doing roughly the same or better damage
than the 80 Trader with the 170 gun

so where exactly is the real problem?
it seems more psychological to me
bc of the new way FC has implemented a QL based system
and people paying more attention to that than performance.

i mean .. imagine no overequiping
then compare a QL100 nano to a QL100 gun
and see what i mean ..

+ casters can keep the items like
pillows/nelebs robe/matcreat-gun
on them in addition to implants.
so that will actually mean casters will now be
'overequiped' futher than weaponusers.


hey, im on these boards beating dead horses
over balance issues for every profession
(even the ones i dont play) and think i do attempt
to understand it from both sides, but from my
observations from examining weapon/nano stats
and witnessing damage in practice i just dont see
any gross imbalance here.



QL to QL, nukes are much more powerful than any weapon,
especially at high levels and with AoEs where you can basically
do the equivelent of a full-auto attack (gauranteed 40% cap)
to 20 different players at once .. and the cast time of those
nanos are much faster than the time for a weapon-special to
recycle. A team with 3 NTs can insta-kill literally dozens of players.

Everyone can 'overequip' to some degree, NTs cannot
overequip quite as much, but compare the damage
being done and you see they simply dont need to.
Different strategies for different professions,
including different ways to overequip/optimize yourself.

[___________Goodpheel]

Originally posted by Scumbug


let's talk about damage.

im pulling numbers out of the air here
so bear with the general concept please

say a level 80 NT with decent implants,
a pillow, or nelebs robe, or a gun with
a good mattcreat modifer on it (i've seen 2 or 3),
is casting QL100 nanos. that reasonable?
ok, at QL100 NT nanos are doing roughly
500-1000 pts of damage every 6 seconds or so.
(looking at hackersquest database right now)

is nuke damage affected by armor?
i dont think it is, but correct me if im wrong..
if not, another big advantage to nano-nukes.

so my question/comment/idea is this:

with the whole QL100 nano vs QL170 gun
oh no not fair 'bigger number envy' aside
i'd say the 80 NT with the 100nanos
is doing roughly the same or better damage
than the 80 Trader with the 170 gun

so where exactly is the real problem?
it seems more psychological to me

i mean .. imagine no overequiping
then compare a QL100 nano to a QL100 gun
and see what i mean ..

hey, im on these boards beating dead horses
over balance issues for every profession
(even the ones i dont play) and think i do attempt
to understand it from both sides, but from my
observations from examining weapon/nano stats
and witnessing damage in practice i just dont see
any gross imbalance here.

QL to QL, nukes are much more powerful than any weapon,
especially at high levels and with AoEs where you can basically
do the equivelent of a full-auto attack (gauranteed 40% cap)
to 20 different players at once .. and the cast time of those
nanos are much faster than the time for a weapon-special to
recycle. A team with 3 NTs can insta-kill literally dozens of players.

Ok, here is a prime example of the overequiped versus the normal player. And these numbers are not out of the air. I was trying to Grid from Meetmedere. I am a level 44 DOC with QL50 and QL70 implants (all self equipped with no outside buffs), decent armor in the QL40s, a team healh buff for +153 HP (I had just left the rest of the team to log for the night), and a HOT going. I also have the highest level token board I can get till level 50. I have not seen these pillows that you talked about, but guess it is time to start looking. I did see a couple that added to strength at one time, so it must be similar. I was attacked trying to reach the grid by a player that was only level 38. My BEST nano attack right now per use is one that does 64 to 137 damage. I also have DOTs for 54 every few seconds and 8 every few seconds. From what I have seen, armor DOES have an affect on the DOTs and the DD nanos. So here I am almost to the grid when another player snares me in place (not the killer, just a higher level helper trying to help him get PVP levels {or whatever they are called} faster). I can't leave, so I have no choice but to fight. My total HP at the time was over 1100. The level 38 player was able to kill me in just 4 shots since he was hitting me for over 400 every single hit. The last hit was for over 600 by itself. Now tell me how this equates to be about the same in a damage versus time scheme of things? Without the overequip, he would have had to have the other person lend further aid and support {and I hate to think what a level 85 would have done to me}, but it was over so quick, he was still not even bothered by my attacks before I was left for dead.

One other thing. Nanos require nano energy. Even with the nano rechargers that can be used in battle, there is not an endless supply available to a program runner in battle. The 30 second wait is a killer. On the other hand, you can buy as many bits of ammo as you want and not have to worry about running out before the other person is dead. {Ok, so 4 shots did not take him much ammo, but it does matter in a longer fight } I can afford to buy much better nanos, get someone to buff me so that I can get them uploaded, and then be only able to run it one time before I am out of Nano energy and am nothing more than a sitting duck. Assuming of course that the buff has not worn off before I want to use this overequipped nano and I am denied even the one shot with it before death. How about putting in the dropping efficiency rating system for my nanos as well as the others gun?

[____________Ejeckted]

there are two types of 'pillows'
one line actually called 'cushions' that raise str/stam
and one line called 'pillows' that raise nanoskills.
but i personally think it would be smarter to use
the weapons with modifers most useful to your profession . .
similar or better buffs + a little bit of extra damage cant hurt.

in your case as a doc,
http://www.hackersquest.org/ao/show....=123954&item=1
note they are duel-wieldable too

oh, and docs arent supposed to be damage-dealers
by definition, so i dont really see your point at all.
(tho there are some very tough PvP docs using soldier weapons)

just incase you think i'm biased or something
i am fighting for docs to retain thier 100% healing in PvP
and arguing against the nerf crys against your debuffs here:
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...&threadid=7109

it is no exageration that 3 NTs can kill everyone in the area
instantly .. and people like Garzu still dont think that's enough.
they want to be able to solo insta-kill anyone too.
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...&threadid=7737

casters are in no way underpowered
and now that the nano-pool implants are fixed (next patch)
and the nano-mage breed is getting a boost in nanopool too
(soon) there really is very little foundation for trying to get
other professions and thier strategies nerfed.

[TaintStain]

I can not believe that I am in a 5% minority here, honestly ppl?
My estimates is that nearly everyone has things on them that they could not get on by themself, ask any trader/doc/enf/agent/soldier how often they are asked for buffs that will allow ppl to get better equipp on.

Agreably, had this been in from day one all would have been good and well as ppl cant miss what they did not have, but removing this now will make a lot more ppl mad then we could possibly fathom.

Getting good stuff on is one of the few and rare occasions when one can feel that they accomplished something, am I truely so alone in feeling like this?

It can not be unknown that AO is not reeking in the profit expected, just look at all them "recruit a player", "re-evaluation" and so and so forth, doing this will make AO loose way more ppl then leaving it alone as it is. IE, another sure step against the cancelling of this game, not by you and me but by the owners of FC, cause they are in this for cash, no other reason...

Please consider this FC, I wanna continue this game, things are actually getting better and better nowadays.

Be well all.

Fury

[Starboat]

let people overequip if they like to. I dont do it at least, but i am sure when i reached a decent level i will.

For me its fun to get Masteries and a Wrangler and then Equip a nice weapon. Dont take that away.

Those whiners who are unable to make cash or arent intelligent enough to play well cant be the reason to implement such a OE change.

damn i work for my stuff and i wanna be uber so let me. If someone works enough to get uber its his right to be it.

If you implement the PET command Crap i will leave and play another game assoon as i have a alternative. Thats no kidding.

I would at least agree with a MAX for pet holder of 65% of the skill BUT NEVER 80% !!

Get lost you whiners who are unable to get cash and the right stuff ! Those whiners are the reason that all started......

In every game i play i see those whineing people i am sick of em. Whine about the Game bugs or if u cant get the game to run, but damn let something you might like in later levels as it is.

Energy, discipline and Time is needed to get a good character. If you behave the same way in your Real life i feel really sorry for you.

1st fix the game bugs then come with such crap...

An IP reset is really needed theres no DOUBT ! i hope its soon and not when i canceled my accoount.

[KROM127]

Just wanted to add my vote, this sounds like a great idea. Thanks for asking us players.

just a question, when will it be done ....

[Breaku]

I'll say it again.

All those people whining about people over equipping, are just tagging themselves with a big "X". All of these X players are one of the following:

1) LaZy people who don't want to use all that the game provides them to be the best of the best/ strongest of their profession.

2) Chose the wrong profession and now are mad they can't kill any so-called uber doods.

3) Have recently died due to a grid camper/whompa camper

4) Are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

-------------------------------------------------

For all theose people who "do" overequip. NO your not exploiting.. i mean why else does Funcom allow you to use all of these buffs, modifying weapons, modifying clothes, etc. Why is it in the game???

Its intended so that you can overequip. Thats all. And don't think for one second its not a hard task. I equiped a level 200 Hammer at level 61. - Noobz would be like "your a cheater! u exploiter -blah blah blah ____________ <-------- insert more n00b stuff here.

So funcom, getting rid of overequiping is not going to help these noobs "learn" the game. Your just saying. go ahead, be lazy, we'll just kill off all the users who have "mastered" our game and used "everything" we gave them to use. We'll kill off the ones that spent hours a day, and all nighters on weekends, and let the noobs who play 3 times a week to prosper.

YAY, what else is new. You sure are smart funcom huh? wow... i'd like to know who the smart one behind all this is. Probably another dumb @ss n00b.

.// sorry for the insults, or if im whining or watever, but seriously. You guys have gone too far with this. If you didn't want it in the first place, then you built "your" game wrong.

-cub
----------------------------------------
cubex level 84 rookie ADV
Breaku level 82 apprentice ENF
kubex level 11 freshman trader
kiwee level 6 Mp
kiwee level 6 NT (RK2)
Einstin3 level 50 doc (DELETED)

[_______________Goode]

Nerf overequiping and lose my money...

[______________Wahoo.]

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Its intended so that you can overequip. Thats all. And don't think for one second its not a hard task. I equiped a level 200 Hammer at level 61.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

My god a lvl 61 with a 200 hammer. I just don't get that. Your the overequip GOD. At lvl 104 im using the 200 hammer but , lvl 61 MY GOD!! HOW!!

[Breaku]

aye hard work, but tis' possible. heh i did it myself. i could of done it at level 58 if i upgraded my merit board so i would of have more nano pool, (higher challenger) but hey, 61 was just fine.

Like i said... to some its a *shock* , to people who know the game, they just say good work!

-cub

BREAKU - now 82 and growing strong

[___________Goodpheel]

Originally posted by Cub

3) Have recently died due to a grid camper/whompa camper

For all theose people who "do" overequip. NO your not exploiting.. i mean why else does Funcom allow you to use all of these buffs, modifying weapons, modifying clothes, etc. Why is it in the game???

Its intended so that you can overequip. Thats all. And don't think for one second its not a hard task. I equiped a level 200 Hammer at level 61. - Noobz would be like "your a cheater! u exploiter -blah blah blah ____________ <-------- insert more n00b stuff here.

So funcom, getting rid of overequiping is not going to help these noobs "learn" the game. Your just saying. go ahead, be lazy, we'll just kill off all the users who have "mastered" our game and used "everything" we gave them to use. We'll kill off the ones that spent hours a day, and all nighters on weekends, and let the noobs who play 3 times a week to prosper.

Hmmm. I guess this puts my into the nOOb group then as I have a life outside of AO. I tend to only play 3 hours a day Sunday through Thursday. I rarely pull an "all nighter". And as a DOC I can't USE something 139 levels above me after all the buffs I would have to run around and get expire. You of the hard work ethic could with your hammer. By the time I got enough people to buffs me again, it would be time to log for the night.

Lazy? No I don't think so. If I wanted to WORK at this game, I could just go out and get another JOB. I play the game because I like it. I don't feel a rush to just jump out and get to level 200 (you are probably there by now). If I did, I would NOT be playing a DOC with the way the current situation is.

As for my reason on this thread, it is from number 3 above. If I did not have to deal with grid campers that can kill me in 4 shots from several levels below me, I could care less. I agree that they put overequipping into the game. Leave it in? Fine, just give those that do not care to PVP the ability to NOT have to. Make Non-PVP mission terms that do not put the good missions in PVP areas or where you have to go to or through the PVP area to get in and out. Increase the time that protection from PVP is granted - 15 seconds with a grid terminal 22 seconds inside the zone is an example.

Then those that want to level fast can, and those that don't can take their time. In my clan, I can usually find someone to team with (think it is a pity thing with nerfed DOCs). If nothing else, I can team with those lower than me and know that in 2 or 3 days they will be past me.

I have played since the day the game went online to the public (read non-beta testers). I have lived with the system crashes, the vanishing money and items, my character locked inside a store for 3 days while petitions went unanswered, lag that made me walk a meter in 3 minutes, random sorting inventories (this is still going on and seems to be linked to when I found a car in a chest), not being able to buy nano regens because none of the stores would show them to me (had to beg other characters to buy them for me and then buy the regens off them), and game lockouts (your account is already in use......and I am the only user of it). Still, after being killed/attacked/almost killed every time I go into a PVP zone to do a mission, it is about time to cancel my account and take a look at other games (read NON-FUNCOM). The so-called WHINERS are tired of the imbalance and want a FIX and they want it NOW, not after you reach level 200 and get so bored that you decide to quit and leave the game screwed!

/me soapbox mode off

[RoboKa]

Go here to see why!

[Breaku]

Doc against PVP. What your saying is exactly proving my point, along with the others that agree with what i say.

Lazy? No I don't think so. If I wanted to WORK at this game, I could just go out and get another JOB. I play the game because I like it. I don't feel a rush to just jump out and get to level 200 (you are probably there by now).

Your saying it your dam self, "if i wanted to WORK at this game"... thats exactly what we are trying to explain. If you "DID" put more hours into the game, and if you "DID" spend time calculating how to equip a higher level weapon,etc. Then "you" too could be equiped with a much higher level weapon.

Not lazy? yes you are, spend more time looking for buffs, spend more money into implants, buffs, clothing, etc. spend more time just sitting in front of nano nanny and thinking "hmm.. i need agility,- this intelligence is just killing me"

Then you will come face to face with what "we" (people on my side) are talking about.

it is about time to cancel my account and take a look at other games

I think your playing the wrong game. This game is not only about going to pubs and having a brew, its about tactics, strategy, and yes "fighting". Clans vs omni, its a war... we don't like each other (well when the amnesty is over that is). So we kill each other. Its part of the game, deal with it. Don't like it? leave. Stop your crying. "its about time to cancel... blah blah blah" leave ! Nobody is hand cuffing u to your computer.

im not saying im going to leave ! if i do .. i do. that is all.

Basically, if you would of approached my thread nicer i would of with yours, but what im trying to say is. Just b/c u don't have enough time for the game, don't mean that everyone has to be penalyzed for it.

-nuff said

cub