Exploiters, overequipping and the rest.

[______________Nelida]

every class is only marginally different from every other? I see...sounds like you want a real fun game that would provide years of entertainment and deep character development.....not.

Originally posted by D.Shaffer

Balance by ADDING just creates a rampant upward spiral in power. One class gets something added to make them more powerful. Everyone complains because they perceive that this class is now more powerful or better then the others. This leads to other classes getting more powers and abilities. Since everyone's more powerful, they increase the power of the mobs to compensate. First class again screams about being to weak. Repeat the cycle. I'd rather they lower everyone equally, yes.

[______________Nelida]

Gee that was difficult wasn't it?

Originally posted by Tomasin
Whats up with this crap people are saying this fix will make everything stale and boring, or that its the lazy trying to punish the achievers, etc...

Is it too hard for you to comprehend that certain classes simply CANT compete under the present system? Its not about making everyone on a level playing field, its about giving everyone an oppurtunity to succeed, and right now thats not possible for a few professions.

When you can show me how an MA can overequip his fists, then I will back off and say you are right and Im wrong.

MAs are the masters of minimum damage right now. Their skills cap at lvl 82 and dont go up again til 100, that puts them 18 levels behind the pack to start with, and no buffs can make up that difference.

For a class that is supposed to do the MOST damage over time, its pathetic what little damage they do compared to the over equipped classes.

There are two ways to fix that, either increase MA damage (which I would be ok with) or take away some of the effectiveness of overequipping. The problem goes beyond MAs and their ability to overequip, or lack of I should say. NTs are another class that doesnt rely on weapons to do their damage. Overequipping effects them also. So Funcom has brought to the table the idea of tweaking overequipping some to remove the ability to go beyond what was intended. They never said they would remove it, and as some people pointed out here (as many of you continue to ignore) the changes will have almost no effect on anyone over 75, but will severely cut down on the twinking of lower level chars.

Anyways, the changes they proposed are actually pretty moderate if you would actually take the time to think outside of the box for 2 seconds. They wont change things at all for agents, enforcers or soldiers, etc... who can equip well over their level without wrangles and such due to their own buffs. But what it will do is give MAs and NTs a chance to compete, cause really, thats all they want.

[Punctus]

I have jused alot of time and effort (and creds) to get the right inplants buffs, to make my chr. the best she can be (74 soldier).
Now you are going to implement new rules that will strangel, my chr. GREAT any soldier will have the same abilitys even though they have not jused a second to try to figure out all the small tricks of the trade.
And even better the new rules will make the Traders, Enforcers, Docs, Agents even richer.
A soldier totally dependent on the buffs frome these to equip inplant diffrent things.
Instead of paying the blood prices they charge now once in a while, we will hafta pay them constantly.oh yes the prices will go down, but we will hafta pay again and again to be at our best.
soldiers dont have stat buffs like Enf,Doc,Agent and thats ok we get it for a price. This new rule make traders to gods and the others his/her helpers.
Much of the game is to find how to make you the best you can be. It works why change it, some tweak some dont so what ?
PvP will all ways be for the best of the lot, with this it will be of the highest lvl of the lot. When i turn lvl75 every chr until lvl200 can attack me. I have tuned and tweaked my chr. to be ready for this, she will have a chanse to at least get away i hope.


Ignorance is bliss, it should never be revarded

[________________Sent]

Damn .. huge thread.

[___________D.Shaffer]

Originally posted by Charlee
I have jused alot of time and effort (and creds) to get the right inplants buffs, to make my chr. the best she can be (74 soldier).
Now you are going to implement new rules that will strangel, my chr. GREAT any soldier will have the same abilitys even though they have not jused a second to try to figure out all the small tricks of the trade.

You realise the overequiping ISNT going to effect implants, right?

[___________D.Shaffer]

Originally posted by Zuleica
every class is only marginally different from every other? I see...sounds like you want a real fun game that would provide years of entertainment and deep character development.....not.

*rolls eyes* And blindly insulting the vast majority of users who seem to favor the change (Which they do going over the bboard threads and counting) is going to sway them in your favor too huh? Guess what people? You might not like it but the majority of people playing the game arent the hard core, 24 hour a day, spend hours figuring out what to do next players. They're the normal working stiffs who play maybe an hour or two a day. They outnumber you and thus send more money into Funcom's coffers. Who do you think Funcom is more apt to listen too? You want to change the minds of the player base, insulting them isnt going to do it.

No, I DO want characters do be radically different. I dont see that NOW. And I dont see how the overequiping bug is going to make it more or less so. The overequiping 'fix' will lower power levels across the board. Every class will have to make SOME sort of change in tactics as will the mobs. I have yet to see someone clamoring for variety. What I have seen are people saying 'My profession sucks in such and such! Makeit so we're equal/better then anyone else' I want variety in ability and new abilities, not increases in the ones that are already there.

[Meetshield]

Obviously not. I havent seen this many knee-jerk, mis-informed replys to a well thought out and reasonable idea in my life.

Its pretty sad really, people cant take the time to actually READ the proposed changes, and automatically come here screaming "the sky is falling, the sky is falling." Well Chicken Littles, if you actually read and thought through what was proposed you would see its impact would be almost nil for anyone over 75.

But No, we gotta deal with all these knee-jerk reactionary posts.

[Meetshield]

I love how everyone says these changes are gonna make stale one dimensional characters...

Like we already dont see every enforcer with a hammer or beam.

Or soldier with nova.

or every single profession in a decus cloak after the tank armor nerf.

Etc,etc,etc...

The lack of variety already exists. This change may actually fix that, since highly overequipped weapons wont be the norm, and with mob tuning, maybe a lot of those other weapon choices will become viable.

Try and actually think this through before spouting off about how this will affect the game.

[____________Ejeckted]

**************************************
attention-getting stars: look here! ohhh..shiny!
**************************************


lol. ok now that you're reading this.
consider one very simple idea that i think everyone could live with.


Make ATK rating (notice this in the top of your HP/nano window)
which is based on *current character stength*
(only base body + currently worn implants + currently active buffs)
much more influential in determining damage.

Make ATK rating (which is still very important right now,
but noone in this thread is paying attention to that)
even more important, so that the weapon you're wielding
matters less, giving overequipers a smaller advantage
while maintaining the current game mechanics and
methods of optimizing that many of us enjoy.


In the system proposed on the official site,
it appears you would actually be punished
for figuring out how to use something far
beyond your level. (sliding scale of effectivness
would make a high QL gun less effective than
a same QL gun) And that completely destroys
the game for a great many players, whose
favorite feature is the ability to use all the
buffs and weapons and items with modifiers
and multiple implant sets etc etc etc
to make the best characters they can.

In the system I have proposed above,
you would still recieve a bonus from a
better weapon, but it wouldnt be 'uber'
enough to make you a PvP god.
(and incite all this nerfing talk)

And best of all it's so simple.
dont change the way weapons work
or add extra messy code;
just rebalance the way ATK rating
is factored into damage calculations.

easy. effective. fair.

[______________Nelida]

I DID read the proposed changes and calculated out exactly what ql my current Vektor would be equivalent to. Supposing I managed to maintain one drain (I'm a trader), I'd be hitting for the same damage I did when I WAS level 75...and I'm now level 97. Hmmm...let me think...is this "almost nil"?

Originally posted by Tomasin
Obviously not. I havent seen this many knee-jerk, mis-informed replys to a well thought out and reasonable idea in my life.

Its pretty sad really, people cant take the time to actually READ the proposed changes, and automatically come here screaming "the sky is falling, the sky is falling." Well Chicken Littles, if you actually read and thought through what was proposed you would see its impact would be almost nil for anyone over 75.

But No, we gotta deal with all these knee-jerk reactionary posts.

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Zuleica
I DID read the proposed changes and calculated out exactly what ql my current Vektor would be equivalent to. Supposing I managed to maintain one drain (I'm a trader), I'd be hitting for the same damage I did when I WAS level 75...and I'm now level 97. Hmmm...let me think...is this "almost nil"?

How strange... considered you have reached the skill caps 17 levels ago.... How do you expect to do more dmg when your skills are capped? LOL

[______________Nelida]

have two kids. I don't power level AND I'm certain I come no where near the 'over-equipped' state that alot of players do. BUT, I still like to have that freedom to attain greatness in the little time I actually HAVE to play the game...which, by the way, IS only and hour or two each day.

I'm not uber. My implants are marginally higher than my level, same with my armor. I am a trader though so I equip the VERY best weapon I can. That's how I SURVIVE in solo missions...it's the ONLY way I survive in solo missions.
Now you might say to me; "They will lower mob difficulty." and that's all fine but my weapon is also my differentiating factor. That I CAN equip way beyond my level makes me DIFFERENT. Take that away and I look and fight like every other class. That I can equip way beyond my level gives me the FREEDOM to try alternate weapons. Take that away from me and I'll be back to the good ole reliable Vektor. Sorry...I see this as a drastic RESTRICTION of my freedom and my ability to differentiate myself.

I'd like variety also and I don't see how narrowing the range of the ability to equip adds to variety. I LIKE the fact that there are players SO much better equipped than I am. Quite honestly it doesn't bother me in the least that some uber twinked players 'owns' me in PvP. If I go into PvP poorly equiped and prepared I deserve to get killed quickly.

All I'm saying is try adding content and increase abilities of under-powered classes to 'balance' things. The MAs complain that they do minimum damage SO why doesn't Funcom work on that issue DIRECTLY. Instead they propose changes to LOWER the damage output of most everyone else AND lower the dificulty of mob. How is this the best solution for MAs? NT complain that they can't 'over-equip' nanos...they can still get buffed to download them though. SO, why doesn't Funcom allow them to cast them but with reduced effect? Why can't they address the issues directly? Instead they take away from others.

Furthermore it appears that the proposed plan actually penalizes a player by making an 'overequipped' weapon, beyond the 20%, LESS effective than one that is of lower ql. What is the POSSIBLE purpose of this?

And your "vast majority" comment has yet to be determined.

Everyone sees an insult differently. I find all of you that want to take away what I worked to get to be extremely insulting. And in the end, I find this change a constant thorn in my side and a detraction to my enjoyment of the game, I'll simply take my money elsewhere. The rest of you can lay in the bed you made and continue to take it up the ass by Funcom in their neverending quest to give you as little as they can for as little cost as possible while charging you as much as you'll endure.

Originally posted by D.Shaffer

*rolls eyes* And blindly insulting the vast majority of users who seem to favor the change (Which they do going over the bboard threads and counting) is going to sway them in your favor too huh? Guess what people? You might not like it but the majority of people playing the game arent the hard core, 24 hour a day, spend hours figuring out what to do next players. They're the normal working stiffs who play maybe an hour or two a day. They outnumber you and thus send more money into Funcom's coffers. Who do you think Funcom is more apt to listen too? You want to change the minds of the player base, insulting them isnt going to do it.

No, I DO want characters do be radically different. I dont see that NOW. And I dont see how the overequiping bug is going to make it more or less so. The overequiping 'fix' will lower power levels across the board. Every class will have to make SOME sort of change in tactics as will the mobs. I have yet to see someone clamoring for variety. What I have seen are people saying 'My profession sucks in such and such! Makeit so we're equal/better then anyone else' I want variety in ability and new abilities, not increases in the ones that are already there.

[______________Nelida]

I see nothing about someone with bare fists that would make them more deadly than a mountain of a man like an Atrox carrying a steel I-beam. Or, someone carrying a sniper rifle, or someone wielding a shotgun, or a plasma rifle.

You'r deluding yourself if you think a MAs fists should deal more damage than any long range weapon or even little pistols.

I'm NOT saying MAs shouldn't have their minimum damage problem FIXED though...because they should have it fixed BEFORE Funcom even ponders over this 'overequip' issue.

[Meetshield]

Yeah, thats what this game is based on... realism. You see the sort of things you see on Rubi-Ka every day irl, so I can see how you would make that comparison.</sarcasm>

The fact is, Funcom stated that MAs were supposed to do the MOST damage over time. The fact that at present they get out damaged by docs with overequipped shotguns is pathetic. MAs arent the ones who said they were supposed to do this much damage, Funcom was, and they chose their class based on that. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Funcom. Its Funcom that created this mess, and now they are trying to fix it. Im willing to let them try to sort out their own mess, and not think I know better than they do, since I dont have access to the all the internal info that they have.

[Myga]

Maybe the majority want this change. Do the majority really realize what all the consequences of it is? This will make debuffs make sure MA arent the only Minimal Damage artists around. This game is seriously in need of a new damage system, YOU CANNOT LET AC "ABSORB" MAX DAMAGE THEN MAKE FAST LOW DAMAGE WEAPONS. Then suggest make debuffs reduce weapon damage by a factor in addition of reduced atk, to make sure even slow relatively high power, non overequipped weapons will only do minimum damage, this isnt a well thought out solution. I was even positive to this change first time I read it as well, but unless anyone can point out any flaws in my previous arguments, this change would only be a disaster for the game way I can see it now. Maybe all the NTs posting here are in favour because they see it as a relative power increase for themselves since it dont effect them?

Only change that can kill overequip and has integrity that I can see is to make it so you can only equip stuff if you have the unbuffed skill (ie base skills + implants) and deactivate item if you do not have the necesary skill (ie because user changed implants etc). But this require rescaling of requirements since I dont think anyone can get 1000+ unbuffed skills even at 200 and some weapons require that.

[_______________Garzu]

Originally posted by Tomasin
Yeah, thats what this game is based on... realism. You see the sort of things you see on Rubi-Ka every day irl, so I can see how you would make that comparison.</sarcasm>

The fact is, Funcom stated that MAs were supposed to do the MOST damage over time. The fact that at present they get out damaged by docs with overequipped shotguns is pathetic. MAs arent the ones who said they were supposed to do this much damage, Funcom was, and they chose their class based on that. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Funcom. Its Funcom that created this mess, and now they are trying to fix it. Im willing to let them try to sort out their own mess, and not think I know better than they do, since I dont have access to the all the internal info that they have.

This is wrong, FC stated NT was supposed to do the most dmg over time, which we currently dont do. They also stated that NT was going to be the BEST solo profession in the game in higher levels, which we currently arent.

And again.... They will tune down mob ac too.

[Meetshield]

*sigh*

Ok for the nitpickers

MAs were stated by Funcom to do the most MELEE damage over time. For cryin out loud...

[Timber]

I have been playing AO for about a year now (was in Beta 2, 3, and 4). I have seen a trend that I don't like at all. Funcom has been punishing us ALL for the actions of a FEW. Funcom did not expect there to be such radical over-equipping. When it happened, they adjusted the balance so that the over-equippers we balanced with mobs. This left the rest of us scrambling for crap xp. What I am worried about with the over-equipping solution is that Funcom has not offered us any solution for the resulting chaos that would plague Rubi-Ka. People will become disgusted very fast in a game they can't make progress in. I think that a major balance tweak needs to happen at the same time as the over-equip fix. One form of this could be a re-adjustment of the way xp works. For example: the most xp is gained from mobs 5 levels below you and 5 levels above you. Any higher and you get less xp; any lower and you get less xp. This would help with the over-equipping issue a little as well. Then, however, you could solo things your level to get your maximum xp reward. You wouldn't feel like you have to fight extremely hard things all the time just to stay on top of things. XP could be handled differently in teams, as you would want to go after harder mobs then.

Just my thoughts.

[_______________Garzu]

What I am worried about with the over-equipping solution is that Funcom has not offered us any solution for the resulting chaos that would plague Rubi-Ka.

I think thats the reason why they propose ip wipe at the same time, to offer us a solution. I think we never would have gotten an ip wipe unless some big changes were implemented. So i really think they have thought about it.

[Timber]

An IP wipe doesn't address the issue I brought up. I'm taking about XP being to dangerous and to scant at higher levels. For instance:

Lvl 1. leet gives you 10% and is yellow

lvl 90. Cyborg Colonel (or maybe it was higher) gives you 10% and is very red and almost impossible (unless you have an outside doc backing you up)

this is solo of course

Why the VAST difference? I'll tell you why. The game was adjusted for over-equippers. So, I hope Funcom fixes this adjustment when they fix over-equipping.