I don't know if this has been brought up yet. But I was wonder could there be a way of a character only doing buffs to another character if they are with certian lvls of each other something like the way PvP is ran. If you are to low of a lvl u can't have a high lvl character buff u up. That way u really couldn't over equip. Just checking thought this might be the right place to put this idea.
Now THAT is a good idea.I don't know if this has been brought up yet. But I was wonder could there be a way of a character only doing buffs to another character if they are with certian lvls of each other something like the way PvP is ran. If you are to low of a lvl u can't have a high lvl character buff u up. That way u really couldn't over equip. Just checking thought this might be the right place to put this idea.
"By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising: kill yourself." --Bill Hicks
"Have we turned into gerbils? People are paying money to walk up invisible steps over and over again." --Dennis Leary
I think that the idea presented in the over-equiping essay on the site is great.
It should be like real life... I can pick up the best set of golf clubs that money can buy, and use them, but I'll still be crap at golf. It seems wrong that someone can equip a weapon with a wrangled Att skill, and carry on using the weapon to a higher degree when their skill drops to its real value.
SO: Allow anyone to equip any weapon, but if their attack skill in that weapon is low, they should be no more effective with it than if they were using a QL weapon that matches their Att lvl.
In effect they may be using a superb weapon, but they are a novice, and so cannot take advantage of the increased quality.
The only way I would welcome this change is if some other changes were made as well.
1) Make mobs AC and HPs comparable to players. Doing 5000 damage on a green mob equal to your own level is rediculous. Green mobs should be no contest mobs in my opinion, and should not take more than maybe 10 seconds to eliminate. Fighting mobs currently takes way to long as it is, and slows down actual game play.
2) Fix PVP so the battle is more dependent on your skill as a player, and less dependant on how many endless hours you have spent in the shops and searching out items to Twink yourself.
3) Fix the "monster aware of presence" Aimed Shot bug already. Aimed shot should not be dependant on concelment, and you can use this at anytime in PVP combat. It also doesn't make sense that you have to use IP on Aimed shot, if you have to be hidden to use it. Maybe even give the agent another attack called "Sneak Shot", which could be dependent on Aimed shot skill and Concelment, and deal out a large amount of damage. This may help balance the Agent a little after loosing the ability to over-equip destroys our abilities to be competetive.
4) Fix it so Agents can get a token for sneaking through a mission without having to kill a certain percentage. After all, Agents are the espionage class... any good agent would not go head to head with mobs without support form other classes. BTW Fix sneaking so it actually works.
Obvliosuly I am biased with the Agent because I do not play other classes. I cannot speak on other classes behalf.
Jennii - LVL 85 Agent
The point of these changes is that you will not need to overequip to be competetive. The adjustments to mobs would very nicely counter the adjustments to overequipping.Originally posted by Greebus
The only way I would welcome this change is if some other changes were made as well.
This may help balance the Agent a little after loosing the ability to over-equip destroys our abilities to be competetive.
4) Fix it so Agents can get a token for sneaking through a mission without having to kill a certain percentage. After all, Agents are the espionage class... any good agent would not go head to head with mobs without support form other classes. BTW Fix sneaking so it actually works.
But what about classes that can't easily overequip? Will their competetivness be damaged? Or wait, didn't they have any to begin with? Who exactly will you be competing with anyway, the other classes who can also no longer overequip?
Aimed shot is symbolic of your aiming for a considerable period of time and taking a shot. This cannot be done in combat. It also can't be done while the mob is standing there looking at you (as they'd duck, etc.) This in itself is not a problem, Concealment is.
Agents are 'an' espionage class, others affected by changes to this would be Adventurers, Fixers, and (maybe) Bureaucrats.
Stealth should be an important issue in some missions.. While there are mission types that require you to kill all the mobs, there are others that say something along the lines of 'don't get caught, the easiest way is to kill everyone.' Well then, the harder way would be to sneak. I would say that visiting every room in the dungeon without the mobs seeing you (or without the ones that saw you living) should count as 100% completion, for matters of tokens.
Last edited by Red Falcon; Dec 20th, 2001 at 21:46:19.
Here's the thing...if you have the buff on, you're NOT overequiping. IF, as a level 80 agent you can put a buff on yourself that lets you use a level 200 QL rifle consistantly, more power to you. What people are arguing against is the ability to use that QL 200 rifle WITHOUT PENALTY when you ARENT running that superbuff. You'll note that the plan doesnt include implenting the scaled decrease in ability with implants? Same reasoning.Originally posted by Templar Red
Traders & Agents have been given the tools to *very briefly & with much difficulty* buff themselves to such extremities that they can equip weapons with skill requirements FAR more then their base skill level (including implants) +20%.
The thing is, at LVL 80, I can equip a QL 200 rifle.
I should be able to use this, because the damage is comperable to anyone else fighting at my level. I am not out damaging anyone. The fact is, some nano mages that can't over equiped nanos, do the same or more damage than me, even when I use every Agent buff I can to enhance my rifle/aimed shot skill, and my rifle/aimed skills being capped at level 85. I also have implants, but still dish out comperable damage to everyone else my level. Does this mean that they will have to balance the sniper rifles as well. After all, a well placed sniper rifle shot should do allot more damage than full auto or burst shot... In my opinion.
In PVP, I still get beat on by MAs, that can out heal my hits. How is this balanced?
I'm not complaining. I just think it's to late to make such a drastic change. If my QL 200 rifle, that I spent millions and allot of time to equip, will now become basically worthless... I will probabaly take my MMORPG money elsewhere. I hope not, because I love this game so. I think Fncom should worry more about improvments, additions and enhancments to the game, instead of ways to drastiaclly change it, which will result in yet more exploits, and probably a lrage user base leaving. People will always find a way to adapt and bend the system in their favor. I'm afraid that making a huge change like this will only result in new problems.
Just my 2 cents.
LOL 2 words for ya and those pesky MAs wont be a problem anymore.... Root, Shoot.
In PVP, I still get beat on by MAs, that can out heal my hits. How is this balanced?
i always thought (when i first started) that in order to wield a QL 10 weapon/armor/whatever, that you needed to be level minimum level 10. i was level 7 & found a QL 10 gun. i couldnt wait til i was 10th level, so i could equip it. i was shocked when i found out i could have used it at level 4 (with some implants & buffs). i thought that implants & buffs would help modify the damage & crit chances, not allow me to wield weapons 2 or 3 times my level.
you overequippers don't understand that it will ruin a big part of the game as you get higher & higher level. it has already ruined pvp. when you reach level 120 (or whatever it is) & are equipped with everything QL 200, what more is there to strive for (equipment wise)? maybe to sell on eBay?
i say: Title Levels on everthing!
one more thing, i know it has been pointed out, but it makes sense. when a gun no longer has the req. stats, it is still usable. a nano cannot be cast. it makes no sense whatsoever. unequip the things, make them unusable. we know who will complain. no need to listen to them, they will be back. back to find another way.
oh yeah, implants for another implant for another implant for another...NO.
*wearing an asbestos suit & ready for any flames*
Last edited by Erskine; Dec 20th, 2001 at 22:46:14.
I have a few questions on this whole subject of overequipping and I just can't bring myself to read all 40-something pages of this thread. I tried, I really did, but there is so much negativity that I quickly lost sight of the real discussion. So feel free to flame away at my ignorance if you wish...
1. What is the point of spending time fixing overequipping if you're just going to readjust the MOB balance? In the end you have made changes that don't change anything. You end up doing less damage but the MOB dies easier, so what is the point?
2. If this is to balance out problems with PVP, I have to wonder why people think that all classes are created equal. Should a sneaky agent ever be able to compete with an enforcer or soldier face to face? ( don't get hostile on me if you play an agent, its only an example ) I mean this IS supposed to be a role-playing game right? Or am I wrong and this is just a really big first person shooter?
3. Finnally, why is it so important to make things fair between classes? Nothing is keeping anyone from playing a different class, You pick a class because you want to play a certain style. I certainly wouldn't have picked MA class and then tried to be a Engineer. If you want to be an arena fighter, pick a class that excells in that sort of activity or accept the fact that you will never "be all that you can be."
You might be asking yourself, "What is the point of this ramble?" Well, my point is that we are wasting time making changes that in the end don't really have that much effect on the game as a whole. Wouldn't it be better to spend all of this time and energy increasing game content, fixing bugs, and doing any number of other suggestins that are posted on this board every day? The game is only as good as WE make it.
So, now I've added my two creds to the discussion... Im gonna go play.
This is the only question I can answer. I play an Atrox Enforcer. Atrox have more strength and stamina than any other breed. Enforcers get strength and stamina buffs. This allows me to self buff and equip armour about 15-20 levels higher than myself. Sounds great right? Aaaah BUT we have low comp lit...which means less ncu. That means that...hmm...say a solitus trader...with 100 ncu at lvl 10 can equip better armour than a lvl 10 atrox enforcer just from outside buffing. That makes my essence pretty much useless, except as an hp buff, and my atrox strength and stamina bonuses pointless. This is an example, there are alot more professions with this problem. I believe Agents are in the same boat.Originally posted by Arisi
2. If this is to balance out problems with PVP, I have to wonder why people think that all classes are created equal. Should a sneaky agent ever be able to compete with an enforcer or soldier face to face? ( don't get hostile on me if you play an agent, its only an example ) I mean this IS supposed to be a role-playing game right? Or am I wrong and this is just a really big first person shooter?
Shen out.
Twinking: my two bits for what it's worth
I have played this type of game for around 3 years, as such I am not on the deep end of experianced but feel I have played long enough to know what I like. When I left asherons call to play this game I was excited. For once there seemed to be a game that understood that a lot of players liked to "push" their characters to the limit of their capablity. They put items in the game that encouraged this even like implants. Now I need to explain that I do not endorse cheating in the way of hacking. I realize that there are several different types styles that people like to play. I personally like to use the tools in AO that allow me to "push" my character to the limits. By this I us all the buffs/NCUs/Armor/weps to their fullest. If that means that I pay a doctor to buff a certain stat to put on that armor then so be it. In my opinion it has made that character a little money and helped him pay for the cost of the nano crystal he had to buy. The stores barely pay players for loot they find and so a player has to take it upon himself to make money other ways. Now I understand that many players feel that its not fair if you have to play with a player that has "twinked" them selves out. My answer to that is that those twinked players spent a lot of time making their character the best it could be and that they did nothing that you couldn't go do your self. It is not fair to force every one to play in the same style. How ever I do understand some of the concerns.
Ao seems to handle different zones and ql very well... if it is such a concern for player vs player then maybe you should concider making a zone or two were pvp can be done and anything that is way above your stats or if you dont have the buffs to support the items warn they become disabled of taken off. Or start a system on rating the character's actual equipmetn against their actual level so that you know what your going up against.
If there is twinking that is going on that is exploits of the game then of cource those should be handled... how ever I don't concider using buffs for arming of equipment an exploit. You put the tools in the game and we have developed a style of play with the tools we have been provided. This is a future based game were anything is possible. Even twinking... isn't that ultimately what an implant is? =)
Anoughter solution could be to make a seperate server that doesn't allow you to epuip things that you don't have buffs for. Then all the people that don't want to play with twinked characters would have a place to be happy.
As for purchasing money... Take it as a compliment that people are willing to spend real life cash on your cyber world. those people have a different play style and in such if they wish to purchase money in your world so that they have time to do the things they enjoy most then so be it.
The way I see it is people play these games for enjoyment. ANd in past experiance the players become unhappy when the dev team starts messing with the way the like to play. The dev team has a diffulcult job in balancing the game and insureing there are not bugs and exploits. But when you get right down to it the people that continue to play month after month its becuase they are having fun. If nothing else learn form other games mistakes. Do not force one style of players preferances on another player. I know that if you take out all twinking that you will loose a lot of players. There are for to many players that enjoy this type of play and will not play any other way and will go and find a gome that doesn't try to strictly control their play style.
Well thats my two sence worth. I hope you read it and really take into concideration the amount of freedom you want your players to have. I hope you decide to not dictate, or allow one group of players to dictate how the rest of us will play.
If you can buff yourself to use the 200 QL rifle, and KEEP the buff on, you wont loose any performance. If you think the buffs need to LAST LONGER so you can keep using them, that's a seperate issue...Originally posted by Greebus
I'm not complaining. I just think it's to late to make such a drastic change. If my QL 200 rifle, that I spent millions and allot of time to equip, will now become basically worthless... I will probabaly take my MMORPG money elsewhere. I hope not, because I love this game so.
ChibiKawai - The KAYOOTEST Level 40 NT ever.
"IWANNASTUFFEDTEDDY AND I WANT ONE NOW!!"
The problem is there really ISNT anything for those non-combat classes to do besides fight. There's no really valid way to make Xp/Money except killing stuff and looting the corpses.Originally posted by Arisi
2. If this is to balance out problems with PVP, I have to wonder why people think that all classes are created equal. Should a sneaky agent ever be able to compete with an enforcer or soldier face to face? ( don't get hostile on me if you play an agent, its only an example ) I mean this IS supposed to be a role-playing game right? Or am I wrong and this is just a really big first person shooter?
ChibiKawai - The KAYOOTEST Level 40 NT ever.
"IWANNASTUFFEDTEDDY AND I WANT ONE NOW!!"
I agree with that - but I'd also like to see HP and AC play a part in deciding the colour of the mob (like in other mmorpgs). If a mob has tremendous amounts of HP, it should be more exp and a darker colour. I was in the Steps of Madness dungeon the other day, and there's grey mobs to me (I'm level 50 summin) and it took six of us over a minute to kill one! It didn't do much damage, it just had sooo many hitpoints it's untrue. Soloing it was impossible, cos if I'd go out and in again it would be fully healed.Originally posted by Greebus
The only way I would welcome this change is if some other changes were made as well.
1) Make mobs AC and HPs comparable to players. Doing 5000 damage on a green mob equal to your own level is rediculous. Green mobs should be no contest mobs in my opinion, and should not take more than maybe 10 seconds to eliminate. Fighting mobs currently takes way to long as it is, and slows down actual game play.
2) Fix PVP so the battle is more dependent on your skill as a player, and less dependant on how many endless hours you have spent in the shops and searching out items to Twink yourself.
3) Fix the "monster aware of presence" Aimed Shot bug already. Aimed shot should not be dependant on concelment, and you can use this at anytime in PVP combat. It also doesn't make sense that you have to use IP on Aimed shot, if you have to be hidden to use it. Maybe even give the agent another attack called "Sneak Shot", which could be dependent on Aimed shot skill and Concelment, and deal out a large amount of damage. This may help balance the Agent a little after loosing the ability to over-equip destroys our abilities to be competetive.
4) Fix it so Agents can get a token for sneaking through a mission without having to kill a certain percentage. After all, Agents are the espionage class... any good agent would not go head to head with mobs without support form other classes. BTW Fix sneaking so it actually works.
Obvliosuly I am biased with the Agent because I do not play other classes. I cannot speak on other classes behalf.
Jennii - LVL 85 Agent
If they'd change that bit I might cancel my cancellation. I somehow accidentally sold all my implants (when they were still implanted!) which was the final straw for me.
-Wudang
If what I remember is accurate, dual wielding DOESN'T just alternate, like Mikebond says. It is like the second weapon starts the attack charge as the first weapon is in recharge mode. So it IS a little faster. Dual wield weapons do less damage because of this, you can get in more attacks slightly faster. But dual wielding is useless with the way things currently can be overequipped. Why? Because you can't overequip the 2nd weapon due to dual wield requirements!Originally posted by MiKEBoND
They do.
Okay, if they just alternated swings there Yaz..
WHY WOULD YOU DUAL WEILD ANYTHING
You wouldn't!
AS A DUAL WEILDER - You dont get DOUBLE speed from multiple melee weapons. But you *do* attack *faster* than normal. It does not just *alternate*
Quote from today from Celetiness (Level ~140 MA in regards to QL169 parry stick)
"Hmm, this thing has same min damage as my fist.. same QL, and I get a few more attacks in.. I like this thing!"
^-- Sounds liek a happy MA weapon weilding MA in my group there.
I know someone who uses 2x ninja tantos. It works something like this
"MA" attack bar fills up
1st melee bar fills up
2nd melee bar fills up
Ma "hits" and starts recharging
1st melee hits and starts recharging - MA back on the ATK again
2nd melee hits and starts recharging - MA weapon ready to "hit" again, as is the 1st melee.
It's a bit hard to explain until you do see it - And I'm not even sure if thats a 100% accurate description of it.
Bear in mind that you DO get more attacks in. If you didn't - NOONE WOULD DUAL WEILD ANYTHING IN THE GAME (But people use riders.. not 1.. two - MA and weapons work the same way)
Yes, if I used MA and a QL1 hammer, it WOULD slow me down.
But if I used MA and a fast MA weapon, and had some points in Melee init - It wouldn't. It'd be faster.
Even more so if I dual weild melee and triple weild.
Been told by certain "established (level 175)" MA's that she would definately start doing this as opposed to using BwT - She does more damage with weapons but hates the MA bug so it's less stress to just use BwT while it remains bugged.
Enforcers and soldiers would be the classes (agents too) that can keep their skills buffed all day long - Not EVERYONE, but certainly not every "Secondary" weapon class can do it. Adv's cant, fixers can't (really) NT's cant (talking about weapon skills here) doc's cant.. etc
Ah! What was this thread about?
mmm.. servers need to come up again
So when/if overequipping is reigned in similar to how Gaute proposes, dual wielding becomes MORE viable becuase you will be able to do damage closer as compared to single wielding.
For example, a ql200 mausser does about 340 damage max, but the new duke luggers at ql200 only do 140 max but can be dual wielded and are 1.5s faster than a mausser. 140x2=280, not as much damage as a mausser, but when you get in an extra attack or two it becomes more. Say because of the dual wield requirements you can only wield a ql200 duke and a ql180 duke, the damage becomes pretty even.
But the way it works now, you have someone wielding a ql200 mausser compared to someone else using a ql200 duke and a secondary ql100 duke because they are limited by the dual wield requirement, so the damage is pretty subpar compared to a mausser.
Now apply the overequipping changes and it becomes someone wielding a ql120 mausser vs someone wielding a ql120 duke and a ql100 duke. The person who chose to dual wield is now back on par with the person who overequips just a single heavy hitting weapon.
There are so many things like this, that when you take a good look you can see how badly overequipping is hurting the game more than helping. The way the game was meant to work was that the person who has a higher skill level in a given skill would have more of an advantage. It still works that way, but it is so overshadowed by who has the more overequipped weapon.
Agree completely!
I currently have a lvl 6 soldier in full ql25 chilled plasteel and wielding a lvl 23 nova flow. It wasn't that hard. He only has 32 ncu though.Originally posted by Xombie
You'd be surprised. It's actually quite easy to do such a thing. Especially when it's funded by a higher level character. I've seen a single person create a Trader, bring him to level 5, and put him in full QL 25 armor in under an hour. Also included in that package were a total of 96 ncu.
Took me about 2 hours I think.
It's not hard at all.
Someone posted an idea of limiting bufs to levels, ie a character can only be buffed by another "close level" character. That is probably the best idea I've seen yet, though it would have to be thought beyond that, as you still can get into the implant cycle. Perhaps there should be no treatment raising implants? I for one think this line of thinking may be better than reducing the effectiveness, but in the end either works.
The IP reset, on the other, hand, I am still very opposed to. Why have skills at all if you are simply going to allow everyone to periodically reset them so they can optimize them? Why not just go to a purely level based system like 1st edition AD&D and forget skills entirely, that is effectively what you will have. Skills are one of the things that makes the characters more distinctive. Rules change, they always will, it's unavoidable, they even do in real life. Look at the popularization of firearms, how do you think all those people that spent their lives training with swords felt? For those of you that are going to say this is a one time good deal, think about it, if FC buckles on this once, it will be done again.
Metaphysacist - Clan - Member of Twilight Night
Im completely against the IP reset for the fact that if when i was beta testing, if at lvl 40 i got a chance to do over all the mistakes i made, i could have made my character perfect. Instead it took 3-4 characters and making mistakes and learning from those mistakes to become a good player. I dont think that its fair to those who have had to learn the hard way.
As far as overequiping, i believe that if your not going to allow this.. then get rid of wrangles.. because i thought thats what they were there for. So that you could use things to better your character. I know the arguement with nano techs and MA's and stuff who dont equip stuff..but why not help out their professions?
****THIS IS WHAT I SEE AS THE BIG PROBLEM*****
EVERYONE WANTS TO "OWN" IN PVP. And thats just insane because not everyone SHOULD be amazing in pvp. Nanotechs already do AMAZING damage.. i love having them in my hunting groups because they will drop stuff incredibly fast. Same with MA's... but an NT soloing vs a Soilder.... THE SOILDER BETTER WIN!! lol.. NT's need help but they do massive dmg.
TO all the people who think killing overequiping is a GREAT IDEA... its only because they dont have that option due to their character.
I really hope that you guys reconsider this, as i have to agree with what someone said earlier.. killing this stuff will definitly make me lose interest in the game.
Posting Permissions
