Exploiters, overequipping and the rest.

[____________Ejeckted]

Does this mean a Q100 weapon wielded by a Level 50 player
after buffs-to-equip drop will be LESS effective than that
same player wielding that same weapon-type in QL50 version?

that doesnt sound like a very good system to me . .

The Q100 gun should at least have some small advantage,
and definately never be WORSE than the Q50.

[_______________buggy]

ya all for it

[___________Comador64]

A good idea, but I still think that for this to be implemented.
There would have to be a major increase in for example the damage that a rifle does.

[___________stifelife]

I believe this is a good idea, however it is way before its time. As soon as you pass level 35 it is extremely dificult to solo othermonsters your level without over euiping. Say for instance you are wearing level 42 armor, and a 42 weapon at 35 and are hunting. You will be slaughtered plain and simple. I think that there are major changes needed before this can ever be thought about. First off, enforcers wont hold the agro, its bad enough the monsters all head toward the docs anyway, I cant imagine what horros this would bring. Secondly Minor classes such as traders or crats, will become extinct, only playable by those who can finance them with thier super level 180 players. Then there is the fact that There are supurior professions. These are unintended, but they exist. MPs will beable to overbuff themselves into your top percentile all the time, since they can buff better than traders (if ofcourse these changes are even thought about.) I can understand they are godly now because you are working on Revamping all proffesions, but common guys, are you favoring this class. I think these new ideas are great, mabey in a year, when you have all your gameplay issues settled. As for now, you have allot of balancing to do, and i think you should concentrate on Proffesions, Overly Strong MOB's, and inventory blips (the ones that cause 2 yalms to disappear.) These are just my ideas on the subject. Feel free to tell me if i mad a wrong assumpion.

In all, i think these adjustments need time, and at the rate your going, this will occur about 1/2 way threw the game if implimented in a way that would be fair.

[____________Anastazi]

Lots of wrong ways to handle overequiping that would just end up making people mad. The stepped method is solid thinking. Not penalzing the person but changing the effectivity to be more inline with what is normal to their level.

I like it.


A

[Morphex]

Finally Concealment will work against players!!!

Oh happy days!

[Myga]

I do not like this at all. It makes debuffs way to powerful, let me illustrate:

TraderA has 700atk using shotgun requiring 800shotgun skill.
AnotherClassB has 700atk using same shotgun.

TraderA plunder and divest AnotherClassB. Now TraderA has 1000atk skill and AnotherClassB has 400atk. Way it is today, TraderA will do about double damage of AnotherClassB because of the way higher attack skill. If this goes in tho AnotherClassB will get 75% penalty for 100% overequip IN ADDITION. Ie TraderA does 8 times the damage.

Also, this system PUNISH YOU FOR GETTING A BETTER WEAPON. Because it makes you way more vulnerable to debuffs. This is fundamentally wrong IMO.

Also this will make solo play very tedious because we simply have no option but to wait until debuffs wear out after each fight and debuffs last up to 5min which is meaningless when fights last 1min. Also as far as I can see today:

Mobs today cast nanos with higher QL than mob lvl.

And is this just for weapons or is it supposed to work on armor and implants as well? If so the reqs on implants need to be fundamentally changed, because no1 run around with 900+ treatment.

Debuffs should be powerful but they SHOULD NOT MAKE YOU COMPLETELY USELESS! Thats like giving insta kill button to the debuffers.

[_____________Climate]

When I first read the article I wasn't so sure I liked the overall idea. The more I thought about it, the more I like it. What amazed me most was to click on the link to this discussion and see so much positive feedback!

The more I think about this, the more I think it's the right way to go. I'll just throw out a few random thoughts, some of which have been captured by others in the discussion so far but which I think are important:

• Agents may be 'scared' by these changes.
  
  I don't play an agent but I know that they are one of the professions which overequips the most heavily. Whle their 'knee-jerk' reaction might be to resist these changes, as long as other balances (as suggested) are brought in at the same time (weaker mobs, better rifles, fixed conceal, etc.) then they will actually have cause to be happy. I presume agents currently equip QL200 rifles at a very early level - with these changes, there is much more room for them to keep having their weapons improve as they advance through the levels.
  
• Engineers can't summon and use pets with other prof buffs indefinately.
  
  As it stands, an engineer can currently get nano mastery buffs and wrangles to push they skills up high enough to create a pet robot. If they can keep this pet alive then they can use it for a long time - they can even cancel the buffs straight after they've made the bot to fill up their NCUs with other buffs. With these changes, an engineer will need to be rebuffed constantly and will need to make sure their buffs don't run out in mid battle if they want to commad their bot. I can well imagine an Engineer running around screaming 'rebuff my masteries!' in the middle of a fight if their pet fails to respond.
  
• Meta Physicists will need to stay buffed.
  
  The MP will now need to make sure they keep their buffs up at all times. Many will probably do this as it stands, but any MP who would summon pets, then kill the nano buffs to load up on protective buffs will need to adapt their style. As Engineers, they will also be in trouble when buffs run out mid-battle but this will make MPs a more 'interesting' profession as it's something else to watch out for...
  
• Martial Artists may become more viable.
  
  Since MAs cannot really overequip in the same way other professions can, the net effect of these changes may benefit them greatly. Namely the redution in mob strength. I get the impressions that the MA is not a very powerful profession at higher levels so this may help them a lot.
  
• Traders will be in less demand.
  
  With overequipping being 'less useful' than it once was, traders may find demand for their buffs (a nice little side source of income for some) will drop off a little. Having said that, most people will probably still want to overequip if they can 'grow into' their high level weapon. It would be nice to be able to not have to think about having to upgrade weapons and armor every couple of levels to stay on top of things. If, however, the net effect of the changes is that a QL100 pistol performs worse than a QL80 one then I think this will not be such an attractive option.

Anyway, I'm sure there are many more interesting effects which could come out of these changes but on balance, I think this is probably a 'Good Thing(tm)'

Climate.

[______________Mauler]

I would ask one thing tho. If you are going to disable the /pet commands on a high bot once our buffs wear off, is there some way you could give engineers a Time & Space and Matter Creation mastery buff similar to the Metaphycisists? That way we could keep our bots, which are usually only a few levels above us even with that buff, but still won't be able to grossly over-buff with a wrangle into one that is twice our level.


Thank you.

[KylSawz]

Okay, I feel pretty good about most of the things suggested here - but I have a problem with the skills check. As said before, this is SERIOUSLY going to give debuffers an advantage against certain classes.

For starters, my currently developing char is an MP - but I also play an MA. The "make pet a stupid zombie" change sounds pretty crazy. In order for the pet to continue to operate your summon skills must stay above 80%. Well....I currently cast both Expertise and Mastery Buffs to create my pet. This is NOT overequipping because it is soley a personal buff. I do not wrangle to get better pets because for an MP this would be useless. The pet would last 20 minutes. 20 minutes might be nice for pvp - but I don't pvp with my MP. I only care about pvm. Now...lets say my skill (after 70 points of buff) is 550 (my actual skill is a wee bit higher) but after summoning the pets it drops to 480 (because those buffs thoroughly eat up NCU space.) Now...my skill is now 87% of what is required to summon. All I have to do is get a 40 point debuff and my pets are useless.

That is enough from those using general nanos to protect me - however anyone with a debuff (like NT, Trader, MP) will make me basically USELESS. I have nothing that I can cast that would make another class useless. However, this is only an example.

This problem will be MUCH more complicated to those lower in level than myself. Lower level MP's (at about 25) get the same 70 points in buff but this accounts for a MUCH larger percentage of their total skill when summoning.

I think perhaps lowering the affectiveness of the pet might work...like decreasing inits...but not make the pet useless. We have no HP nor weapons that themselves do alot of damage - unless we overequip into something like a vektor. Again, rethink that little "pet zombie" concept just a little and see how you are affecting balance. (I realize that the real problem is for the Engi Class where the pet is permanent.)

Hope that this doesn't appear too negative. Just wanted to voice my opinions.

[______________Foster]

Most NPC's have insanely high AC and hit very hard. Most times I have to run and come back to finish them off. This is even with my gear I buffed into with implants & nanos.
This among the other reasons not to change this grey area of the game only shows that there's other issues of greater importants than this.
You change this one area, then you'll have to change everything directly associated with this. (I hope Im making a tiny bit of sence here)

Changeing this means people wont be as strong, therefore you must change mobs, then any bugs they may follow with this programming change.

Resetting ip..well who wouldn't love to set ip to places they should've but didnt in the first place? I dunno how good that will be.

You know what I'd liek some attention on, is Enforcer nanos. Now I haven't played other types of character professions but Ill tell ya, I don't think I should have all green melee skills if the only enhancement nanos I get are for 1 and 2 handed blunt.
I chose ot use swords from the start and stuck to the guns the whole way, but I still do minimal damage on most enemies. Meanwhile an Enforcer 'sticking to the mold' swinging a hammer or beam is hitting for 3 times what I do at the same level.
If a 'set mold' was intended for professions, then dont give us the options for other areas.

I know the above is not related to the subject but it's a small issue that I find important. I just don't think that the veterans of AO, the ones that have hung in there and stayed thru the various patching and downtimes, deserve to be nerfed NOW instead of strategic planning in the beginning.
I was in the beta phases with alot of people, alot of whom have quit and used the trial time, but some stayed thru everything. We knew the game was sketchy. and warned them accordingly. Sticking ot the schedule the game came out anyway.
Now that most people have figured out the way to advance, by level, by equipment, etc...The game keeps changing.
Once having 10 people I regularly saw in game, Im down to just me and 1 friend. The changes are only making people mad and leave.
Just stop changing thing if your not sure of ALL the consequences.

[______________Lictor]

Pretty good changes I would say... And since it's ahead planning, there is still time to adjust some issues....
Now, for some of the issues people have :

- MOB balance. Well, they stated they would balance down the mobs with these changes...
- IP reset. Making it so that *everything* must be unequipped first is a good way to take care of some previous "exploits" (treatement clinic bug, +55 comp lit buff...). It will also cancel some of the past IP exploits... And allow some of the profession which have been nerfed (adv with multi-range, NT with double pillows) to rebalance themselves... Now, for the people who just say "re-roll"... Well, you can if you want, but people who have invested days in developping characters, just won't do this... As for characters becoming cookie-cutters, well... There are still disagreements on some skill issues (effectiveness of nano resist, evades, initiatives), so many people will just stick to their choices... Some will not focus purely on combat either, but raise nano skills or trade skills...
- Traders. Remember the 20% "free" over-equipping? Well, if your skill is 500, that's still 100 points... And if I understand well, the 20% is on top of your current skill (so, including implants and your own nanos). That's still a pretty good wrangler! It will only cut on lower level uber-equipping, and that is something very very good! One suggestion I would make would be to increase the duration of the team wranglers. Like to 15 or 30 minutes. But make them drop as soon as the Trader leaves the team... So, they become something actually useful to hunt with and have a Trader in the team for... And something used for actual hunting, not for equipping stuff...
- For people complaining that over-equipping required efforts, and that these efforts should pay... Well, you can still over-equip... With carefully designed implants, carefully designed groups, FP, equipement with bonus... You just get a little less reward, and have to put more efforts into it. You still keep an edge, not just one so high for so little efforts it's not imbalancing...

Now, a few questions....
- Armor : How are you going to handle this? Same rules? Using an average of both req stats?
- Implants. From my understanding, nothing changed for these, since the treatement limit is mostly taking care of this...
- Weapon : the other stats (criticals, recharge speed...) won't change? What about weapon with multiple skills? Like I have the attack skill right for my weapon, but the burst skill is way too low? Or the reverse? Maybe affect every action separately (for instance, in first case, the weapon will fire normally, but burst for less)?
- NCU : well, not very buffable now... So maybe there is no need to change that
- other items (range increasers, low-light scopes...). What about them?
- Nanos? Maybe one way would be to allow running them, provided you managed to upload them in the first case, whithin the 20% rule. For instance, you have 140 nano skill, you can run a 168 nano. But you have a higher chance of fumble (fumble+10%), and the nano gets resisted more easily (NanoAC+20%)... Or maybe penalty in nano init... Would that feel fairer to nano users?

[Myga]

Guys think about this before saying its a good thing, when its introduced you'll regret it even if you dont overequip. Debuffs IS extremely powerful today:

This is what high lvl ppl will face, maybe from lvl 150 or so, against mobs:

Divest Skills (Advanced)
Desc Lowers all attacking and nano skills of the target by 204 points, transferring 170 points back to the caster.
Plunder Skills (Advanced)
Desc Lowers all attacking and nano skills of the target by 211 points, transferring 178 points back to the caster.
Draw AC (Invasive)
Desc Lowers all the ACs of the target by 1098 points, transferring 1067 points back to the caster.

For a lvl 200 char with 1000weap skill that means he can be debuffed to 585, meaning he will take 50% penalty from using a lvl 200 weap requiring 950skill in addition to loosing 40-45% damage from the atk loss.

And if you solo a mission and get debuffed by some trader mob, you might end up having no option but to zone and wait for debuff wears out, then go in and hope you dont get debuffed on next attempt. I don't think this will do anything but make this game incredibly tedious and frustrating.

[______________Dragon]

Regarding non-responding pets if you don't meet the requirements. They should always respond to /pet terminate since an engineer without a pet is a dead engineer.

[__________BestDealer]

I don't think the option of a complete IP wipe is good, but it would be very nice for at least the players that got shafted by "nerfs" to equipment that no longer exist or can't easily be found anymore (Freedoms Arms pistols anyone?). A little too late to save my dual pistol wielding Soldier though, I've already re-rolled. :/

[______________Dragon]

When it comes to pet by the way something needs to be done. I am a level 48 engineer with a ql 50 bot, yesterday I saw a level 19 engineer with the same ql bot as I. I don't think she could create that pet on her own, someone buffed her way past her level since in order to hold on to her pet she didn't log out when inactive but was in AFK mode for hours. If she had logged out her pet would be gone. Implementing Gaute's suggestions would mean her pet would be useless for her.

[Miriandel]

Hey guys, I'm leveling a trader ATM, she's now 52.
I have a Meta 110 (since release) and a fixer 80 (retired, go figure why...)

Trader is very difficult to play.
At 52, I use a self-equipped QL95 Vektor, top armor, and I can't take an orange without breaking the fight with a charm several times.
It's really tedious, so if you think traders have it all, go play one, please, and come post afterwards.

If traders were that good, why do I see soldiers, enforcers, agents, NT's all over the place and above 100 ?
Add to that the flavor of the month meta and you'll realize traders are rare because it's a pain to play solo, just like doctors.

Of course, I could pay to equip those QL150+ vektors I have in bank, but I saw the changes coming so I won't feel the nerf stick like many others...

[Windowlicker]

From the standpoint of a pistol using Advent, we have been BADGERING you for an ip reset since day one.

Ever since you guy's messed with the Multi-Range cost on Advents, quite a few of your older Advents have been missing a couple levels worth of IP.

Although this is certainly not what will "make or break" our characters, it has resulted in being noticably weaker.


Along with that, most of us that used the Freedom Arms pistols, where forced to switch to Desert Reets, or OT Boomer M30's.

This resulted in a large waste of IP into the Ranged Energy skills, which is dark blue for us.


It's one thing if I foolishly spend my IP into a skill that I wont' use.


It's another thing if changes you've made to this game, render hundreds of points into dark blue skills useless.


I'm all for an IP reallocation, and I think honestly it would be a good move for you to make at this point. A step in the right direction towards having a better balance overall between characters of the same class.


How many other class's have "wasted" ip in this fashion?


A one time reset would certainly fix that, and eliminate the discussion of the possibility's.

And if it dosn't work? ... Well at least we asked for it.


I for one will be egarly anticipating that /command to come into effect, so I may unspend those horribly dark blue points that where wasted when you removed our favorite pistol.



Let's see it soon

[Vlados]

Love it!
Love the IP reset!

Just a question. Will the Weapon overequipting stuff be the same for nano's? If u dont have more than 500 mc but the nano requires 600 mc you can still run it but with a lesser effect?

[gnuman]

I don't like this at all of more reasons:

1) By this you pretty much make my whole wrangle-line utterly usesless and worthless. Do I get my money back that I wasted on junk-nano? No...

2) Just because some people refuse to overequip or don't know how to do it everyone gets the nerfing-stick. How sad, you have played this game a lot and researched in how to buff yourself to the top. And now you are forced down to the level of people who don't care about that. "I NEED FLING MASTERY - MY BUFF RAN OUT". How will we ever have NCU enough to buff anything? You removed the 6 deck and 64NCUs from missions. Like I am gonne have NCU space for the buffs I need in the future. I am sorry to say, but you pretty much screw everyone who played this game a lot - and I don't like it.

3) Traders are good in PvP (I play one). In the future a trader can divest you to lvl 10 in no time.

PLEASE don't do the same mistakes you did in the start by listening to the trolls on the boards and changing the game-rules drastically.