Exploiters, overequipping and the rest.

[_____________potoole]

Kudo's Mr. Godager!

You have proven to be a benevolent god.

[___________Zyxlquith]

Okay, so I can see why numerous others would want Wranglers to last longer... I personally will NOT be running around with a 30 minute wrangler in my NCU though. It lowers my own skills much more than it raises the target.
As for over-equipping... The wrangle exists for a purpose, and it is definitely not so that the trader can follow around a client for several hours, refreshing the buff so said client can do maximum damage. If over-equipping is altered/removed, in line with the suggestions in gaute's article, please alter the wrangler buff accordingly, so that it can still be effective. How? hmmm.. maybe lower the stats penalty on the caster? make it so that some of that buff sort of... lingers... several hours (perhaps a full day?) after the casting, not taking up NCU, not raising attack stats, but keeping the weapon from being degraded? I dont' know.. but a change this big would require an entire redefinition of the wrangler line. do consider that before acting.

Zyxlquith

[______________Foster]

I'm a level 60 Enforcer, with lvl 70 implants. I got into by way of med suit and nano buff. Now anyone of us could earn more money for higher level things, and pay to have it done. This is how the economy has been as far as I knew and finally figured it out.
Now it's called "Over-equipping"? This shouldn't even be an issue.
You head into a PvP zone, you know darn well it's gonna be rough. And no matter how good you are, there's always someone better.. So they shoudl change because you can't deal with it?
"You" in the above paragraph is meant in-general, not the person's post above mine or anything.
There's a few that may have cheated but that hasn't ruined MY fun. I still do what I gotta do.
It's starting to look like a Diablo format. Where every class has its own deal and no one can go outside that. That's not fun, that's not being unique.
IP reset is damned rediculous and I'll fight that one all the way.

Also, on the subject of Enforcers and blades...Enforcers do not get any 2H or 1H edged buffs other than the general oen everyone can use. But there are buffs that can boost Blunts by 45 or so. Definately need an edged buff. I'm hopeing this will happen soon.

The game has changed so much from the beginning, and each time spawns new problems..
In my opinion, no more drastic changes like IP resets and De-equiping should happen or even be considered til things like missions, zones dropping, those types of things are fixed..

I'm not one of the rich veterans of the game, though I have been playing since the beginning. But I know that if I REALLY wanted what "they" have, I could run missions and such to make the money for it.

There's no reason to complain about what others have. That shouldn't be the enforcing point for a big change.

[RoboKa]

I understand why you want to make these changes.

I feel these changes could have added quality to the game had they been implemented much earlier.

I believe it is too late to make this radical a set of changes in the basic functionality to the game. How could you do this to early adopters and long time players that have based many many levels of character development, hours upon hours of game time and months of payments on a different set of rules.

I am not saying these changes will cause me to cancel my account, but once RubiKa becomes barren of inhabitants because you have completely nerf almost every medium to high level character what will be the use of staying?

Some folks play with the same friends all the time and have their teams honed so they can always get the buffs they need whenever they need them. These people will be fine.

Many people play online games because they like the opportunity to meet new people and group with different teams. Others (AO community, please forgive me for saying this) need the online environment because our in-person skills are less than perfect; we're shy, selfconscious, feel less than pretty or don't make friends easily. We can't team with the same people all the time. We rely on the strengths of our characters to give us confidence. We need a well populated virtual world inorder to find the few that will accept us. Both of these groups are being nerfed by this plan and, well, we'll just get beat up and abused by many of the folks in the previous paragraph.

Unfortunately, FunCom, though you want to believe it, its not just a game you're playing with.

[Thac0]

19 pages.. it would appear no one cares about this topic











/jk heh heh

[Shadelore]

I do not see any problems with equipping stuff to your best ability. I understand 90% of the reasons given here is along the lines like
"Hey! I`m jealous cause someone else can I cant"

Heh, what lamearse reason is that? Sure equipp,dequipp & scream nerf as much as you like, youll prolly suck anyway...

As for seriously removing the use of all traderbuffs, ingenuity, skill, dedication & and in the end trying to make everybody clones, well, sure, go right ahead. In addition to everdecreasing playerbase you need to rebalance the whole game as the way its "balanced" now, it takes into count ppl actually using all the options open to them instead of the now long boring screams of nerf! nerf! to make everybody equally useless as they feel themselfs.

Oh well, why do I bother....

[_____________Lileath]

I honestly have no problem with overequipping... to a point. As a solo martial artist, most equipping issues never even see me. However, I can see how it would seriously affect PVP- its not like I can overequip my fists, right?

So here's what I think should be done: when out of a group, an overequipped weapon does what it always does. When joining a group, however, the weapon ramps down based on some formula. The advantages of being in a group are balanced with weaker weapons.

On the whole, i really think that worrying about this is silly, at best. Funcom should have predicted this result, they put the skill boosting nanos into the game to begin with. if they merely wanted you to be better, the buffing nanos would have been "+1 to hit with (blank)" rather than "Increase (blank) skill."

and speaking of MAs, why are most of our abilities still bugged?

lileath

[TemplarRed]

Ok... I'm done trying to logically spell out for everyone the reasons why these proposed changes will take all the fun out of playing a Trader or Agent. Half of the people here (or less) agree with me already, & everyone else seems to be ignoring me... either that, or they've been blinded by the jealously of players who proactively build their characters, & excel as a result. Either that, or we have a group of MA's & NT's here who either:

A.) ...are pure n00bies & haven't figured out that they are just as good as your typical tricked-out Agent or Trader, BUT they just don't need to jump through the hoops that Agents & Traders do, to become great, or...

B.) ...are just pure evil, who see this as a good opportunity to ruin someone else's (Agents & Traders) enjoyment of the game.

So how about this:

Kick off the storyline stuff on RK2. Then...

1.) Implement Mr. Godager's proposed system on one of the two dimensions, where Traders are worthless in PvE, rule in PvP, & are enslaved, corralled into pens & forced to fight in gladatorial combat by the new Overlords of Everything (MA's, NT's, & Soldiers). The Trader-Slaves will be pitted against the Agent-Slaves, who unwittingly believed Funcom when they were told that they'd soon be able to sneak around again (unfortunately, the Overlords spotted them & they were qucikly captured), in exchange for their 'reduced weapon effectiveness' downgrade. Now everyone on this dimention is happy, because anyone who spends their last cred & weeks of careful planning will be able to use the exact same stuff as any newly-escaped-from-the-zoo chimp who manages to sneak into someone's house, find a computer, & accidentally click 'I Accept' on the EULA. Let's hope the chimp rolls a MA, NT, or Soldier... one of the professions who weren't 'balanced' quite as much as those guys who's secret power is to attain unheard-of levels of gimpdom for three minutes by using 'wrangle'. Or as much as those funny guys who walk around crouching all the time, but everyone still sees them. What were they called again?
Hopefully, Lord Godager will one day take pity upon the Agent/Trader caste, & equally de-claw the Overords of Everything professions, who never needed to cruelly baffle poor newbies with this unfairly time-consuming 'over-equipping' nonsense in order to compete. Perhaps the axe of balance will cleave the healing abilities from the Docs, or damage nanos from the NT's. Perhaps, one day, Enforcers will be forced to battle with harsh language only. Sounds great, right? Now there's so much less game mechanics to master, so everyone can enjoy the game without thinking anything through.

2.) On the other dimension, players can play Anarchy Online, as they have before. Players who devote time, thought, & resources to their characters will be rewarded with success. That whiney chimp who attempted PvP with no implants & a ql 18 Nova (at level 22) will spend plenty of time at the reclaim terminal, were he can either wallow in his jealously, or learn how to play the game smart & re-think his strategy.

[______________Xombie]

Or maybe they're just sick of twinks of ALL professions completely wiping the floor with their honest characters in PvP.
I've seen people twink out TRADERS on the fly. Hell, i've seen a guy make an agent, and bring him to freshman with the damage of a level 60 at level 5, in under an hour.
The game is made for overequipping. If Gaute didn't think this, he'd make all buffs self-only. But the problem is that twinks continuously clean up in pvp. It completely excludes anyone from PvP unless they happen to have a high level character. PvP is ruled by twinks. And in ANY massmog, twinks are a no-no for this very reason.
It doesn't take inginuity to twink out a character. It doesn't take a lot of work. All it takes for these dumbassed kids is a few minutes, alot of spam, and a single mission's worth of their highest character's money.

Or maybe they're sick of being gimped by nature. NT"s are not going to get self-buffs for their abilities because funcom claims "that's the MP's domain".

The imbalance bull**** and the ease that twinks clean up at ANYTHING, is what makes this game not fun. There are professions out there that simply have no POINT, if they cannot pvp. There are ****ing overequipped DOCTORS in pvp with guns that cost more than anyone of their level would ever see.
If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.

So really, what ****ing choice do we have left? If you have any ideas, SAY THEM. Because right now, what Gaute is saying seems to be quite attractive as compared to doing NOTHING.
Stop playing the victim game and ****ing be useful. Realize that they ARE doing this for a ****ing reason. Be useful, or shut the **** up.

[Vikus]

I will be not be affected greatly by this change, as I am currently a hammer-wielding Enforcer who can buff himself into every piece of armor and weapon he uses ( a point of pride, if you hadn't noticed..=P )

HOWEVER, I have played many professions in the past, including spending much time developing a Trader that I had GREAT fun with. Part of this fun was the 'strategy' behind equipping the best possible weapon for my level. I put 'strategy' in quotes because I understand it takes planning, knowledge, and a calculator to plot exactly how far those deprives/ransacks/wrangles will go, but it is not exactly Astrophysics. It appears, however, that as simple as 'over-equipping' may be, some have chosen not to do this.

You have chosen poorly.

The game allows for this, and even DEMANDS this of many classes at higher levels. Yet many have ignored this demand and continued to level in their little groups, only to discover one day in Stret East Bank how woefully underequipped they really are.

And to head off the potential backlash from that statement, I do not engage in PvP, as there is no story-based reason for me to want to kick Omni employees out of their own area (2HO). Until I am given a real reason, I will PvP only when attacked...

We level, we run missions, we find neat stuff we show our friends, we seek out better armor and weapons to be viable as solo characters, and to be valued teammates in groups. The searching and/or equipping of items many QLs higher than our own level has become a quest for some of us, because of sheer vanity (i just got into this QL xxx weapon!! =P), friendly, personal competition between friends, and i suppose most importantly because we have had to do so to survive. What we have done is adapt to FC's ever-changing world within the ruleset allowed. I think maybe i need to repeat that:

We have adapted to the world that FC has provided, using the tools FC has provided.

And thus, we come to the crux of the matter: We creative problem solvers that have a grasp of the game mechanics are being punished because there are people out there who cannot solve these problems and who simply wish to "play."

Fascinating, really. No society on Earth has ever survived by stifling its more creative citizens. Nor will this game.

I hope there is a rethinking of this whole idea, Mr. Godager. This aspect of the game is one of it's greatest challenges to date, and it would be a shame to remove something that has given so many players a goal to attain, when, in general, the game still seems to lack any real goal other than leveling.

Good luck to you, sir!

-C

[______________Xombie]

I think that if the new damage rules go in, they should only apply to people under level 75.
There is no possible way for a person level 75 or over to survive in PvP without being able to overequip and stay that way.
They can get nuked for their entire hp.
They can be rooted and not be able to attack, move, or do jack until it's gone.
They can have their nano ability completely stopped.
They must face people both as tall as their shoe hitting for six times their HP, and people twice their size doing the same.
I think that the new damage rules would make PvP a more attractive option for people under level 75... but it would do nothing but screw over people over level 75.

[_________BladeStrike]

I mean I agree with ya. But still, ya gotta realize that if the targets of yer angst were capable of understanding what you say, they wouldn't do what they are doing to begin with. Thus, by definition, your messages are lost on deaf ears and your angst is pointless.

So chill dude and enjoy life a bit.

[_____________Borrace]

think about this...

over equiping is a non-factor when players are over a high enough level. it is almost impossible not to be able to get extremely high level implants and/or extremely high level armor and/or extremely high level weaopns after a certain level.

even NTs and DOCs pretty much use most of their nanos by lev 135-145ish...

so is there really any over equiping of the equipment cap is ql200?

i mean, so what if you are a lev 55 NT getting owned by a lev 55 enforcer. perhaps it's not your time to PVP. go do missions, role play, hunt...level. by the time you are lev 145 you'll be wearing lev 200 armor and using your lev 180ish nanos! you will be equal or better than everyone!

the point is that pvping is probably not for everybody at every level. but eventually everyone will get to the platau where it is impossible to get higher level equipment because it simply doesn't exist.

this game is self balancing for all professions the higher the profession gets in level. so why screw with it?

what funcom doesn't realize is that they've created a world with certain rules. the rules may or may not have been perfect, but nothing is perfect. some people are better than others at certain times.

instead of changing a basic law of "AO-physics" they should be putting their resources into hiring people to play high level characters within the game itself to create some content. i'm not talking about idiotic missions where you may bump into some mob walking around takling about how it wants a piece of cheese, so you go the cheese maker in tir to get the mob some...(that's just a poor example of what static missions are going to eventually feel like after doing them a couple times...). i'm talking about having real high ranking officials in the clans and omni accessable to guild leaders, giving them direction. i'm talking about creating a real online conflict between two sides fighting for control of the destiny of this world! i'm talking attreides versus harkonen, rebellion versus empire, brother versus brother in a struggle for control of the planet!

there should be ways to form alliances between the guilds and get cross guild commands to help guilds work toether. there should be ways of spying on other groups.

instead we get a pretty game consisting of nothing but a bunch of people running around for either 1) money, 2) equipment, 3) buffs.

you are wasting our time funcom. no matter what you do to "fix" the game...you keep overlooking a fundamental flaw, and that is the lack of funcom participation in the game.

this is why ao is doomed. this is why there will be no 4 year story. eventually rk2 will be shut down due to lack of numbers...a few months after that rk1 will lose half their player base to some pretty awsome looking games coming out over the summer...and then there wont' be enough player base to maintain ao as a viable enterprise, and funcom will pull the plug.

this is a sinking ship. it's evidenced by the leaks that have plaugued this game since day one, and even more so when you see funcom throwing employees overboard and laying them off. this game is not generating the money funcom had thought to finance their pet project midgaard...

ao has 6 months. that's my prediction.

[_________BladeStrike]

There are some who appear to be claiming that since they play an Agent, and they are opposed to this proposal, that most (if not all) Agents are also opposed to this proposal, supposedly because we will be screwed the worst (or maybe only 2nd worst, after Traders).

Wrong on all counts.

I only play Agents.

I am in favor of this proposal (although I can and have used FP to uber-buff and over-equip).

I do not perceive this proposal as screwing any profession in particular, although I do perceive it as nerfing a certain type of player - the twink.

If you are against this proposal, I would suggest you examine your motivations. If you are still against this proposal after doing so, then i would suggest you have the motivations of a twink, and are in-fact a twink.

If AO continues to allow the twinks to run the game, very soon the population will shrink to twinks (lol).

[______________Nozzzs]

I fail to see how Twinks are running the game!!!

I meet up with friends, make new friends, and try to level and find things i need. There is an immense world that is mostly overlooked (everyone is in Pleasant meadows at one of a few camps, at the cyborgs, or at the Medusas in efp). Doing really tough missions but with groups is awesome fun and you can get great items that way! And there is still Babboons etc...

So how are a handful (or maybe more) players with low level twinks running the game??? If you are camping the grid at 2ho and get pooped by a twink then I guess you world HAS been run..but not mine! By the time a twink gets up to higher levels it becomes nothing but a face in the crowd as everyone at high level has to over-equip to survive the mobs. So what's the big deal?? Some of you seem a bit over-excited about low level PvP.
I think this is a case of sour grapes for some and pure anxiety for others (Xombie is getting just a bit rude and obnoxious telling people to be constructive by insulting and swearing..hmm..contradiction?)

I have a LONG list of issues with my trader..however I see no reason to cry and attack people because of it. Plenty of people do well with what they have in all professions. EVERYONE has problems with game play and mechanics. The nano range is incredibly bugged AND nerfed now. I could understand if an NT asked for that to be looked at. But asking for soldiers to have their big guns taken away to make it even is..well...I won't go there.

I ask genuinely for someone to show me how twinks run this game. I have yet to be affected in a negative way by one.


Nozzzs

[TemplarRed]

Originally posted by Xombie

As said about five million times in this thread...
-nano professions cannot stay overequiped.
-it is not the overequippers that are a problem, it is the twinks.

Every single thing Gaute said has been suggested by players. He didn't make the **** up off the top of his head.
And as he said, none of the **** is even planned on going in.
I can't believe I have to repeat myself this ****ing often. I'm starting to believe that 99% of the AO community are complete ****ing retards.

Again, I will repeat what I stated earlier:

I have seen individuals of every single profession with PvP titles on RK1. I have seen Docs. I have seen Crats. I have seen Fixers. I have seen a good number of MA's & NT's.

How is it than people can ignore this, & still maintain that the professions are imbalanced? How are people able excel with these characters, if "over-equipped" weapon users are throwing the balance?

Not every profession needs to over-equip to weapons to excel. The fact that there is a Freshman-Everything walking about on Rubi-ka is indisputable proof that balance exists. You've even said so, yourself:

Originally posted by Xombie
Or maybe they're just sick of twinks of ALL professions completely wiping the floor with their honest characters in PvP.

Correct. ALL professions. And many of them work really hard to become great. Why don't you think they deserve their hard work to pay off?

Oh, and "-nano professions cannot stay overequiped."? What do you mean by "nano professions"? I always thought every profession depended on their nanos in combat, all of the time.

I know you aren't talking about Docs, because you were sobbing about Docs with high level guns back there, weren't you? Well, NT's do the same thing. Either I've wrangled a whole lot of NT's into their Vektors or Important pillows... or else they've just paid me a ton of creds because they like the way the wrangles feel. So who do we have left? Pet users? Man, you should see some of the monsters they summon after I wrangle a pet user.

"Nano professions cannot stay overeqipped", you say? So who are you talking about, exactly? I'd feel guilty if I thought that all these people are paying me so much cred for nothing.

But it sounds like your real problem is with low-level PvP:

Originally posted by Xombie
But the problem is that twinks continuously clean up in pvp. It completely excludes anyone from PvP unless they happen to have a high level character. PvP is ruled by twinks.

...but then you go on to state the fact that anyone can do this...

Originally posted by Xombie
It doesn't take inginuity to twink out a character. It doesn't take a lot of work. All it takes for these dumbassed kids is a few minutes, alot of spam, and a single mission's worth of their highest character's money.

Correct. Anyone can do this, which is why the game mechanics are not unfair.

Originally posted by Xombie
It completely excludes anyone from PvP unless they happen to have a high level character.

Is this the part that makes you so sad? The money being passed around? The only way Funcom could possibly prevent this would be by making credits non-transferrable (not likely). There's no equipping restriction that could possibly prevent this from happening. Consider the most extreme equipping restriction ever proposed: Every player may only equip gear equal-to or less-than that player's level. It still wouldn't change a thing, as a 'twinked' 5th level character would have aquired a full suit of ql 5 armor pieces, & a full set of ql 5 implants. He/she'd have an edge over any other newbie in the arena.

Any high level player has every right to give the millions of credits he/she earned to any starting character. I understood this before I even installed the game. Are you just coming to terms with this now?

PvP is simply not a starter-friendly-forum. This issue would actually be a valid problem if PvP had any bearing on the game, whatsoever.

Is this the reason these people want to destroy the Trader profession?

If it's really that important to someone new, then their best option is to do missions, & earn 100K+ before 20th level. It would be a lot of work, yes. Or, you could find a well-to-do guild that will take you in at that level. Personally, I'd just as soon hold off on PvP till later levels.

Originally posted by Xombie
For all you dumb ****s who seem to have a problem with literacy...


"(Disclaimer! Please understand that these are design suggestions, not promises, as to the way they should be implemented. View them as the general "gist" of things.)"
--by Gaute Godager - Game Director, Anarchy Online - Fri, 14 Dec 2001 23:00:00 Universal.

We all know what we're discussing here, Xombie. Check out the first post on this thread. Cosmik invited us to discuss. That's what we're doing, & we're doing so before this proposed mistake is made (better to discuss it before, rather than after).

But come on man. Set the emotional baggage down someplace else. Your personal attacks & silly little temper tantrums don't bring validity to any of your arguements. In fact, they do the opposite. And while what you say couldn't possibly upset me (I was laughing my @55 off, personally ), I'm sure Funcom wouldn't want other potential subscribers to come here & see you embarrassing yourself in such a manner. Even if you're not an adult, you could at least be mindful of others (not to mention yourself), to try to discuss, debate, & share ideas like an adult.

I thank you in advance for your compliance with this,

-Templar Red

[TemplarRed]

Originally posted by Xombie
Every single thing Gaute said has been suggested by players... I'm starting to believe that 99% of the AO community are complete ****ing retards.

[_________Firewater58]

Originally posted by Xombie
If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention.

? I rerolled an agent to enjoy some of the excellent guns they have and figured id give Omni a try for the first time. Yesturday at lvl 35 I grouped with another Trader (lvl 35 or 36) "Lovina" who was weilding a lvl 115 Vektor. Every 5 seconds she (its a dude who uses the lame "im a girl so give me free stuff") would hit for 400-500 damage and one out every 5 shots was a crit for - get this - 1288 (same # for some reason). Remember this is at lvl 35.

Was I outraged? Nope. Her buffs and lvl 70 gave her an incredible edge over everyone else. Should a trader be the most powerfull profession in AO when it comes to combat? Nope. But I say why not just boost the combat of soldiers agents etc so that they can see those big numbers also (or bigger).

If you just lower the mob ac and reduce the power of twinkers - people will get borred by the low #'s they toss up. Everyone LOVES the one shot kill - the awesome crit - the huge burst for massive damage - thats what many people are paying to see. A nerf takes this away and will bore the piss out of most people.[/B

So really, what ****ing choice do we have left? If you have any ideas, SAY THEM. Because right now, what Gaute is saying seems to be quite attractive as compared to doing NOTHING.

We all agree that Funcom enjoys "doing nothing." Item duplicating (a guild member -we kicked him- showed many of us 40 ql 200 novaflows!) STILL exists in AO - its sooooo easy to do. But Funcom ignore my emails and could give a rats ass.

Stop playing the victim game and ****ing be useful. Realize that they ARE doing this for a ****ing reason. Be useful, or shut the **** up. [/B]

And that comment was usefull how?

[_________Firewater58]

Originally posted by Xombie
For all you dumb ****s who seem to have a problem with literacy...

And lemme guess the answer you have for me... "but i can read funcom's mind and...." followed by "I'm a paranoid son of a ***** who only looks out for his own ass" and then a closer with "i'm nerfed. pity me."
NO ONE cares. Be useful, or leave.

You continue to rip on those guys for "not" trusting Funcom (a company who has yet to keep many promises for them) - and have posted a the old "no one cares so be usefull" rant how many times now Xombie? If people arent reading YOUR posts, its for a reason.

[__________ChrisF0001]

Originally posted by Shadelore
I do not see any problems with equipping stuff to your best ability. I understand 90% of the reasons given here is along the lines like
"Hey! I`m jealous cause someone else can I cant"

I haven't read the whole of this thread, but I've read quite a bit of it, and I did read pretty much all of the previous thread that followed the first article.

In all the posts I have read, I have never seen this reason posted by an anti-over-equipper. I have, however, seen this regularly posted by pro-over-equippers as the only reason they can imagine why anyone would be against over-equipping.

Well, you know what? There are many reasons why people are against over-equipping, but that one doesn't seem very common. For my part, I'm in favour of these changes because for me, over-equipping is not fun. It might be possible to rephrase my opinions and categorise me as someone who 'is too lazy to put in the time and effort to over-equip', I suppose, but since I actually kind of like to take my helmet off and put my gun away once in a while, I don't really like the thought of the end result, either. So, fundamentally, I pay my monthly subscription like everyone else, and if FunCom want to retain me as a customer, they have to give some consideration to what I want to get out of the game, just as they have to for you and everyone else. It's as simple as that. FunCom is looking for a compromise between the people who like over-equipping as part of the game and the people who don't, and that's good. That's what they have to do.