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Thread: Nano Resist should be looked into

  1. #1

    Nano Resist should be looked into

    Nano resist check seems to be broken or its mechanic might not have been explained correctly.. As I understand it, NR check is suppose to be someone's attack skills vs a percentage of your NR and maybe a percentage of your level. It is crazy to think that a 150 agent could land root on a 215+ with hold hell at bay on with 2k nr and at full def. This is exactly what happened when I conducted a series of test on NR in the arena. a 150 agent without any buff at all was able to land Leisurely Interrogation on me 1/4 times. I also did a test with a 175 doc and the doc was able to land UBT 1/5 and Epsilon Purge 1/10. It seems to me like the check on NR is completely random and not definite like checks on perks. There seems to be a randomly added value to the system that makes the outcome completely random.

    Maybe funcom came up with this idea to make pvm a little more enjoyable but I still think NR should be calculated mathematically and results should be definite.

    With that said, I can't believe nobody has made a big fuss over this. Why twink out all your NR when someone can still land stuff on you even tho you have 500-1000 more points than needed to resist. For now I'll consider this a bug until funcom can come up with a sensible answer on why it works the way it does.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by fr00b
    Nano resist check seems to be broken or its mechanic might not have been explained correctly.. As I understand it, NR check is suppose to be someone's attack skills vs a percentage of your NR and maybe a percentage of your level. It is crazy to think that a 150 agent could land root on a 215+ with hold hell at bay on with 2k nr and at full def. This is exactly what happened when I conducted a series of test on NR in the arena. a 150 agent without any buff at all was able to land Leisurely Interrogation on me 1/4 times. I also did a test with a 175 doc and the doc was able to land UBT 1/5 and Epsilon Purge 1/10. It seems to me like the check on NR is completely random and not definite like checks on perks. There seems to be a randomly added value to the system that makes the outcome completely random.

    Maybe funcom came up with this idea to make pvm a little more enjoyable but I still think NR should be calculated mathematically and results should be definite.

    With that said, I can't believe nobody has made a big fuss over this. Why twink out all your NR when someone can still land stuff on you even tho you have 500-1000 more points than needed to resist. For now I'll consider this a bug until funcom can come up with a sensible answer on why it works the way it does.
    I think it's more based on a random number. Let's say you attempt to cast Barrage of Flames on mobs with 1000 nanoresist, and yuo have 800 nanoskill. I believe it chooses a random number between 1 and 800 (MatCrea), and then 1 and 1000 (NR), then whichever is higher is dominant.
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  3. #3
    While a 150 landing a hostile nano on a 215 is definately extreme, a 215 should have to twink incredibly hard to resist a nano from a casting proffession in the same level range, imo anyway
    wtb content

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Saetos
    I think it's more based on a random number. Let's say you attempt to cast Barrage of Flames on mobs with 1000 nanoresist, and yuo have 800 nanoskill. I believe it chooses a random number between 1 and 800 (MatCrea), and then 1 and 1000 (NR), then whichever is higher is dominant.
    If attack and def checks were just a random picking of numbers then I would have landed my nano fest perk at least once against a high NR profession while wielding a weapon with low attack rating. So far, that has not happened out of the many many times ive tried. The defensive check only seems to be broken with nano resist.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Enlightment
    While a 150 landing a hostile nano on a 215 is definately extreme, a 215 should have to twink incredibly hard to resist a nano from a casting proffession in the same level range, imo anyway
    I understand what you're trying to say with casting professions having higher attack skills but that doesn't really have anything to do with low attack skills prevailing over high defensive skills.

  6. #6
    This thread actually encourages me to an extent. I really don't like the idea that someone can build complete immunity to having anything ever hit them or land on them.. what a boring game that becomes.

    However I do feel there is something odd about agent roots.. a level 80 agent in our org can land roots better in shadowlands than I can as a 150ish crat.
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  7. #7
    Its kinda interesting to see this topic because i was just mentioning to a friend that I was going to reset my 220 doc's nanoresist because at well over 2200 nano resist she resists almost nothing (pvm standpoint.. I don't pvp with her). Meaning, I still get hostile nanos cast on me when i blitz rk missions (level 180ish for example) and never resist any hostile nano program cast by inferno dynas.

    So if anyone can provide insight on why this is the case I'd be grateful. Its frustrating to have invested so much ip in a skill that seems to be almost worthless.


    Afterthought- On the rare occassion that i'm not paying attention and accidently hit myself with UBT.. I resist it.
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  8. #8
    I don't think its a bug really. NR should make you resist a lot - not make you immune. Immunity to anything in another player's toolset means that player has no options when fighting you.

    175 doc landed ubt 1/5 of the times - by the time that doc tries to cast ubt on you 5 times, he'd be dead, no? Epsilon purge 1/10? If I were the doc I wouldn't even bother. You can kill him in the time it takes him to try twice.

    Agent roots aren't 100% NR checks. Leisurely is 90% NR 12% Level. Nanos with this kind of check land much easier than 100% or higher NR checks. (Just look at how much easier it landed than UBT - 100% NR, and Epsilon Purge - 200% NR) Still, the agent should be dead before he gets off a second try

    Do a little playing around with other professions nanos - the ones that have lower than 100% NR land much more often. If you have a complaint, its with the defense checks on nanos.
    Slimsobe retired 220 opifex trader General of New Movement
    Oneeyedjim 175 nanomage crat


    "You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing."

  9. #9
    Seeing a 214 doc with some enormous NR get dotted by the spirits around Ergo in Scheol makes me wonder why I bother raising NR at all....

  10. #10
    I'll agree that the value of NR in PvM seems very dubious at times.. although spiking NR does seem to help quite a bit with aliens. We have an NR-spec'd MA in our org and he could tank aliens better than any of us it seemed.

    To be totally honest sometimes I just think Shadowlands content (both shadowlevels for players and the mobs) was just really out of whack and upsets the game mechanics and balance in many ways.
    -- Chilled, Co-Leader --
    South of Heaven :: RK2

    No exp perks trained, Under Protest!

  11. #11
    Remember (I know orignal poster mentioned this..) that agg/def affects NR too. I know many docs fight things on full agg so they don't have casting lag which probably puts a huge dent in their ability to resist hostiles. I know on my soldier (about ~1500 NR) I notice a big difference in resist ability from full agg/def. The other day I was killing some penumbra dynas and playing around with/without hhab and agg/def settings, regardless if I wore it or not at full agg they almost always instantly landed their init debuffs / dots / etc on me, with hhab on at full def I would consistantly counter them. Sometime I would kill the dyna before they even landed anything on me.

    Another thing to consider with perks is when their def check is NR, the targets addalldef is factored into their defense rating (unlike with nanos).

    This all being said I still think NR checks are poorly done. It would be nice if +addalloff would actually increase your chance to land nanos/perks as well, or maybe even a new modifier specifically for increasing that chance to land (hellooo NanoRage perk )

  12. #12
    NR check works the same way as evades, it's the attack skill of the hostile nanoprogram that is being checked against your NR value. In case of a root, the check is often being done against 90ish% NR and % level, which means you need potentially higher NR in order to resist it.

    Add all def does not affect your NR value against nano program based attacks, however, it does affect your NR value against perk based attacks, which seems wrong and should be fixed imuo.

    What does affect NR to a large degree however (very similiar to evades) is moving your agg/def bar towards full def. On my NT, with roughly 2.4+ NR at full def, alien nukes land at a 1/10 rate at best, so I wouldn't exactly call NR broken.

    What's important to realize is that there are various dynas all accross SL (and I guess also RK) that don't seem to check against an NR value, their debuffs and nukes just simply always land ... or maybe they just come with insanely high AR so a player has no chance to resist their attacks. Mobs like these can for example be found in the various catacombs.

    NR isn't broken, especially in PvP it can offer a lot of protection against nanoprogram/perk based attack, supported by the caster nerf HHAB. I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with this thread, is it complete immunity against a casters toolset you want? Keep in mind that some professions use nanoprogram based attacks just the same way as you are using a regular weapon to deal damage.

    I have yet to see a +500 evades ring for caster professions ...
    Former NT Professional and post count farmer.

    Goodbye everyone, it has been a blast.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Satenia
    What's important to realize is that there are various dynas all accross SL (and I guess also RK) that don't seem to check against an NR value, their debuffs and nukes just simply always land ... or maybe they just come with insanely high AR so a player has no chance to resist their attacks. Mobs like these can for example be found in the various catacombs.
    Not unlike your own nukes, mob version often have very low resist checks. Example (pen+) catacomb boss nukes are around 50%, many alien nukes 50-60% as well. You need one hell of a lot of NR to resist those consistently. Even with over 7k I got nuked to death more than once.

    Those init/skill debuffs are more like innate abilities on most mobs (though not all), not regular nano's... they go through walls, across huge distances, don't seem to cost nano, and the only thing I found that stops them is the extra resists on the Notum Repulsor perkline.


    Yes, wtb +500 evade ring
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    My new avatar reflects how sad I am because I will miss Famine.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Satenia
    NR check works the same way as evades, it's the attack skill of the hostile nanoprogram that is being checked against your NR value. In case of a root, the check is often being done against 90ish% NR and % level, which means you need potentially higher NR in order to resist it.
    A 150 agent with 700/600ish attack skills of 50% PM&TS shouldn't be able to land on a character with 2k nano resist even with 90% NR and 12% level.

    So to do the math, it's 650 attack skills vs 1826 NR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satenia
    I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with this thread, is it complete immunity against a casters toolset you want? Keep in mind that some professions use nanoprogram based attacks just the same way as you are using a regular weapon to deal damage.
    No, what I want is what this game goes by, numbers and statistics. I want consistency. Or they can add a random result after so many tries to everything else in this game. I sure would like to fit a HH@B on my title 4 toon after 9 results of "Your Titlelevel is required to be 6" and on the 10th try, it magically pops in.

    As a casting prof, you should have high enough nano skills to hit most if not all profs. I don't get why you're crying about evades. It's a trade off, you hit them with nano resist check, they hit you with evade checks.

    BTW, my toon is not an evades toon, it's a support toon. Every hit and every perk that checks evades will hit me. I have 900-1000ish evades. My only good defense is my NR.
    Last edited by fr00b; Sep 16th, 2005 at 09:09:56.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by fr00b
    A 150 agent with 700/600ish attack skills of 50% PM&TS shouldn't be able to land on a character with 2k nano resist even with 90% NR and 12% level.

    So to do the math, it's 650 attack skills vs 1826 NR.
    1 in 3 or 1 in 4 hits looks fair to me with those stats. Of course you can disagree on how it should work but this is how it works and how it has worked for over 4 years, your suggestion that it should be changed now has a very low attack rating vs a very high resist check
    A high level defense should never, imho, make you completely immune to lower level attacks.

    Perk resist checks work differently, but, well, perks aren't nano's.
    Lunette 220+20 ninja on RK2.

    My new avatar reflects how sad I am because I will miss Famine.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by fr00b
    No, what I want is what this game goes by, numbers and statistics. I want consistency. Or they can add a random result after so many tries to everything else in this game. I sure would like to fit a HH@B on my title 4 toon after 9 results of "Your Titlelevel is required to be 6" and on the 10th try, it magically pops in.

    As a casting prof, you should have high enough nano skills to hit most if not all profs. I don't get why you're crying about evades. It's a trade off, you hit them with nano resist check, they hit you with evade checks.
    Well, with the difference that a caster profession will end up with lower AR than a weapon based profession, while the amount of protection offered to other professions through NR items is far higher in comparision. It's no longer a tradeoff, as there is not the same amount of evades equipment/perks available to me to get similiar benefits, I think the HHAB example should make this pretty clear.

    The effect you describe above with lower level toons landing attacks on high level players, the landing rate doesn't sound to bad really, 1/4 up to 1/10 attempts in order to land a nano will give you plenty of time to blast the lowbie away. It's the advantage you get out of your NR and personally I do not think that under any circumstances there should be such a thing as complete immunity against someone else.
    Former NT Professional and post count farmer.

    Goodbye everyone, it has been a blast.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by fr00b
    If attack and def checks were just a random picking of numbers then I would have landed my nano fest perk at least once against a high NR profession while wielding a weapon with low attack rating. So far, that has not happened out of the many many times ive tried. The defensive check only seems to be broken with nano resist.
    Nano Feast is a perk, perks are not random. Landing a perk is just about having more AttackSkill than the target's defense check (with AddDef included).

    On the other hand nanoprograms success, just like hits from a weapon, is random. That's why you can sometimes land them on people much higher than you, or get them countered by much lower level targets. It's similar to a 220 missing leets in BY.

    So no, NR is not broken.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheKrosis
    It would be nice if +addalloff would actually increase your chance to land nanos/perks
    AddOff does help to land any kind of perk, but typically professions with perks checking against NR don't have a lot of AddOff.
    Last edited by Zorro; Sep 16th, 2005 at 12:40:34.
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  18. #18
    It was explained to me this way. It might not be accurate or even close, but its helps imagine what the game is doing to come up with resist or success.

    When you roll to land a nano or attack, compare the attack skill to the resist skill. The odds of landing a nano on a target the same level as you is the ratio of your attack skill to their defense skill. If there is a level difference, it tilts this probability in favor of the higher level person.

    Rough math using froobs numbers:

    650 attack vs 1826 NR gives a landing rate of 1/2.8. Call it 1/3. In fact you resisted more - this accounts for the level difference. He was much lower than you, so you got an advantage and countered more often.

    The doc don't give an AR for - though the example you gave was UBT and Epsilon Purge. The resist on Epsilon Purge is double that of UBT, and he landed UBT twice as often. Whatever the calc was in that scenario, it gives the result you'd expect.
    Slimsobe retired 220 opifex trader General of New Movement
    Oneeyedjim 175 nanomage crat


    "You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing."

  19. #19
    I wish had numbers and facts to support this, but all I have is corroborating evidence. I recently farmed tokens. A LOT of tokens. This involved mostly QL160-164 missions. Hundreds of them.

    I encountered a lot of missions full of fixers and docs, as I was doing "Mystic" settings. After some experimentation with different FPs, I settled on Enforcer. Mongo + Rage were huge time savers, so 95% of the missions I did were as enforcer.

    Long story short: I can count on one hand the number of times I resisted the various doc init debuffs. It was like having Rapid Palsy chain-casted on me. And I have NR maxed and with rage running I think it was like 1500ish NR. Hundreds.. HUNDREDS of times I got hit with these debuffs, while resisting them only a handful.

    Level 160 mobs have like 3000 BM/PM apparently. Either that, or something is wrong with NR
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by fr00b
    A 150 agent with 700/600ish attack skills of 50% PM&TS shouldn't be able to land on a character with 2k nano resist even with 90% NR and 12% level.

    So to do the math, it's 650 attack skills vs 1826 NR.
    ok the math 650/1826 = .356 or 35.6%

    and you observed:

    Quote Originally Posted by fr00b
    a 150 agent without any buff at all was able to land Leisurely Interrogation on me 1/4 times.
    1/4 is 25% land rate which is pretty close to the 35% land rate calculated from attack rating by defense rating, probably need a bigger sample size. Evades and NR are not supposed to make you immune, just less likely to be hit.

    Seems to be working perfect if you ask me.

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