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Thread: Atrox engineer warning

  1. #1

    Atrox engineer warning

    I read a lot of "I just started an atrox engineer because everything sounds so easy now" threads, and just wanted to try to explain why it isn't as easy as it sounds.

    Yes, if you have infinite resources, a highlevel main, a good guild, good friends, plenty of time, a lot of patience and know the game well, then atrox might perform just as well or better then the other breeds.

    BUT, if you have only played the game a few months and want to start an engineer, do NOT chose atrox. Atrox engineers require a lot of creds and twinking to perform well when you level up. Engineers have trouble finding teams at many levels as it is, and if you get a reputation as a gimp trox engi you will most likely just give up and start an opi ma or something easy like that.

    The most serious drawbacks are symbiants and armor.


    Symbiants: As soli or opifex you can twink into very high ql symbiants, and equipping reasonable ql symbiants is quite easy. As trox you will most likely never equip any symbiant over ql 240. Worst part of this is the brain symbiant, as 250 is the next after 200 so you're stuck with the 200 one forever.

    If you want to be a tradeskiller you miss out on a lot of points in tradeskills from not being able to use higher symbiants, and everyone miss out on points in mc/ts needed for bots.

    Read this thread for a discussion on what ql symbs can be twinked in. Even the lowest ones that are referred to as "easy" are impossible for a trox to equip at this time.


    Armor: If you want to wear tier armor, you will be wearing significantly lower ql then any other breed. You will only be able to wear ql300 faithful/chosen at 220 and with a few hard to get items.

    Arithmetic is wearable, though still at lower ql's. Not too hard to wear ql300 at 215+ if you just camp a few items.

    The main problem with ai armor is when it comes to combined. Twinking 1 ability for single ai armor is easy, twinking 2 may be very hard as the add ability items go in the same slot often. Even though you may equip ql 300 arith, you will never equip ql300 combined scouts, so you might have to settle fore ql250ish because of the sense requirement.

    Here you miss out on mods from higher ql armor, and will have a harder time swapping armor for tradeskilling etc.


    If you don't trust me, look at the amount of engineers of the different breeds:

    Level 200-220 engineers:

    Solitus: 516
    Nano: 311
    Opifex: 71
    Atrox: 16

    Atrox engineers at 200+ are a tiny group, which indicates that there are some challenges at 200+ that people find hard to overcome. Yes, it is a lot easier with sl and ai, but it's still not a walk in the park.

    Engineers in general are quite expensive, and atrox engineer is even more expensive. I have spent 900mill so far, and that is not counting handmedowns from my other chars such as ncu, armor, implants, symbiants, ai items looted at earlier raids and so on.

    Before you start an atrox engineer you should ask yourself these questions:

    1. Do I have sl/ai?
    To make a decent engi as atrox you really need sl and ai, otherwise you will not be able to cast bots and nanos that you are expected to cast at a given level.

    2. Do I have the resources?
    You do not need billions in the bank, but if you want to get to 200+ without giving up somewhere along the way, you should be able to gather 20-30mill on occations when you need something, and 100ish mill sometimes when you really need a piece of arithmetic armor. Getting a hold of this amount of creds as a trox engi main at tl5 and tl6 may easily take an eternity.

    3. Can I accept the limitations at higher levels?
    No matter what you do and how much money you have, you will never be able to equip the same ql symbiants as an opi/soli engi. In the end you will have to sacrifice a lot more then other engis if you want to selfcast bots.

    If you can answer yes to those three questions, there is no reason not to roll an atrox engi. If you answer no to one or more, or you are unsure, you might want to think twice before starting your engi.

    Another question overriding all others is of course: Do I want to be an atrox engi because it is fun? If that is your main goal, go ahead and start one, but don't expect it to be easy.

    Personally, I only started my engi as trox because there are no 220 trox engi. If there had been one when I felt like rolling an engi, I would have chosen opi to equip extreme ql symbiants. I don't regret rolling atrox, it's quite a lot of fun, but I'll be very annoyed if someone goes on an sk-frenzy and hits 220 before me.
    Last edited by Beornin; Sep 1st, 2005 at 07:16:10.
    When I make mistakes, I use a lot of salt,
    cause salt makes m'steaks taste great!

    Beornin - The original Shotgun Adv
    Obsessive - First 220 Trox Engi
    Euthanizer - Reanimated NT

  2. #2
    Well, I saw you in WA today.

    And I must say Trox engi with full Arith suit looks very handsome

    Shame, I had to see your remains too =P (*kisses his nullspace*)

    , And Im quite impressed to see an Atrox Engineer at that level, If I'd have one I would prolly reroll and opi MA or something (err ......yeah ;P)
    Proud klingon apprentice of Octopuss. <3

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by DivineKing
    Shame, I had to see your remains too =P (*kisses his nullspace*)
    Never said I was any good at pvp.

    Engi vs engi depends mainly on how big the bot is and how long your cocoon lasts anyway, as we die from regular dmg and we cause almost only regular dmg. I tend to get killed by most engis because I insist on bouncing around trying to land primed explosive device on them. In theory that should land most of the time on other engis, and kill the opponent when it detonates if the bots have eaten through the cocoon by then, but the perks take a while so until now I've always been killed too soon.
    When I make mistakes, I use a lot of salt,
    cause salt makes m'steaks taste great!

    Beornin - The original Shotgun Adv
    Obsessive - First 220 Trox Engi
    Euthanizer - Reanimated NT

  4. #4
    there are no 220 trox engi's anywhere. im not talking about 200+, there are some 20x trox engis out there already, but not a single 220 on ANY SERVER...so if you can do it, you may go down in the record book

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Beornin
    In theory that should land most of the time on other engis, and kill the opponent when it detonates if the bots have eaten through the cocoon by then, but the perks take a while so until now I've always been killed too soon.
    unless your bots do firedamage he'll absorb the explosion
    Becky "Cenelia" Schatz and equipment
    Picture drawn by MrFli

    [Clan OOC]Azzreal: ok all pay attention. Qwazeech and cen are now elevated to god (and godess) status

    Douglas Adams: "I really didn't foresee the Internet. But then, neither did the computer industry. Not that that tells us very much of course - the computer industry didn't even foresee that the century was going to end"

    /)(X.(>_x)(\<) bunnies shouldnt play with blenders
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    did you cuddle a leet today?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Cenelia
    unless your bots do firedamage he'll absorb the explosion
    I keep forgetting cocoon absorbs all types independently. Guess the trick is to time primed explosive to detonate just after cocoon is down then.
    When I make mistakes, I use a lot of salt,
    cause salt makes m'steaks taste great!

    Beornin - The original Shotgun Adv
    Obsessive - First 220 Trox Engi
    Euthanizer - Reanimated NT

  7. #7
    Good post Beo, hope it cuts down on the Atrox invasion
    Neophyte "Ruberaa" 5/0 - lolequip

  8. #8
    Bump for more well thought out reports like this one! (Especially instead of the usual flame-fest breed discussions end up turning into.)

    ...and a double-bump for encouraging to become the first 220 trox engie!!!!!11!1

  9. #9
    Feel free to post replies with whatever I forgot to mention. I'm sure there are other important areas that slipped my mind (wrote between 03:00 and 05:00 am while doing other things).

    I'm not saying trox engi is bad, I'm just trying to get the message across that it's not as easy as it sounds when rich old players discuss different issues. I'm sure there will be a lot more trox engis, but I'm hoping new players will not make a trox engi that will stagnate at tl5 somewhere just because it's too hard. It would be sad to lose potential good highlevel engis to other professions just because they chose a breed unsuitable for a new player.
    When I make mistakes, I use a lot of salt,
    cause salt makes m'steaks taste great!

    Beornin - The original Shotgun Adv
    Obsessive - First 220 Trox Engi
    Euthanizer - Reanimated NT

  10. #10
    bump
    When I make mistakes, I use a lot of salt,
    cause salt makes m'steaks taste great!

    Beornin - The original Shotgun Adv
    Obsessive - First 220 Trox Engi
    Euthanizer - Reanimated NT

  11. #11
    If you are making engineer as your first character I would recomemend solitus too.

    However I disagree with most of your points. Level 1-200 breed makes no difference at all if you are poor. Any breed can cast 200 bot pretty much at same level. Few points of trickle won't have any effect, at those levels symbiants are limited by treatment not stats and since you are poor you can't afford arithmetic anyways. Nanomage has slight advantage at casting level 200 bot because devalos sleeves are quite cheap.

    Even at few first SL levels there is no significant difference in nanoskills. I managed to cast highest bots with just CM from 201-217 before there was champion of nano combat, nano controller or AI armor. So with all that stuff it is quite easy to do with any breed.

    Statistics of different breed engineers has nothing to do with hardness of particular breed. Atrox does not have any problems from 1 to 200. Problems might start at shadow levels. Reason for very few atrox engineers is that all guides recommend soli/nano for engineer and very few people who have real knowledge of breeds ever manage to level engineer over 100. Engineer just gets VERY boring after you can cast level 200 bot and when you know next one worth using is at 217.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beornin
    Engineers in general are quite expensive, and atrox engineer is even more expensive. I have spent 900mill so far, and that is not counting handmedowns from my other chars such as ncu, armor, implants, symbiants, ai items looted at earlier raids and so on.
    Actually engineer is one of the cheap professions. We used to cast bots without all that gear that costs hundreds of millions and without AI perks so it still can be done cheap. Of course if you want to be absolute top quality that costs. But difference isn't huge for well played cheap engi and well played expensive engi. Pretty much any profession without pets costs more than engineer if you want them to be as good as cheap engineer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beornin
    1. Do I have sl/ai?
    To make a decent engi as atrox you really need sl and ai, otherwise you will not be able to cast bots and nanos that you are expected to cast at a given level.
    This has nothing to do with breed. Difference in nanoskills at 200 is under 10 points between solitus and atrox. And there is not single mc/ts item that atrox can't wear just as well as solitus except AI/SL items. Problem is that if you got no SL/AI you will be very far behind in bots compared to those who can perk their nanoskills. So I would say that do not make engineer unless you got SL/AI. If you insist then solitus works just as badly as atrox.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beornin
    2. Do I have the resources?
    You do not need billions in the bank, but if you want to get to 200+ without giving up somewhere along the way, you should be able to gather 20-30mill on occations when you need something, and 100ish mill sometimes when you really need a piece of arithmetic armor. Getting a hold of this amount of creds as a trox engi main at tl5 and tl6 may easily take an eternity.
    Actually there is no need of hundred millions of cash before SL levels. 200 bot is very easy to cast with AI perks without expensive/rare AI items. And since 201 bot is joke first time that you need significant nanoskills is for 203 dog. So at 203 you need to do something for serious nanoskills but amount required is still so low that you can easily do it without single piece of AI armor. With any breed. At later levels atrox needs one more piece of arithmetic to stay equal to solitus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beornin
    3. Can I accept the limitations at higher levels?
    No matter what you do and how much money you have, you will never be able to equip the same ql symbiants as an opi/soli engi. In the end you will have to sacrifice a lot more then other engis if you want to selfcast bots.
    Only significant symbiant that atrox might not be able to equip is 250 brain. And I don't think many get that on until 220 anwyays. At least nanomage requires 220, all perks, all normal items and either boc or belt to get necessary agility and treatment.
    "then again, it's also been said by funcom that theye'll try improving pathing again somethime in the 16.x series"
    -Cenelia

    "God I hope not. I don't know how many more improvements we can take."
    -Spleenman

  12. #12
    No 250 brain and suddenly one piece of arithmetic becomes two. No 270 eye either, more points of difference. Being stuck with lower ql arith because you can't hotswap ql 300, and the number of arithmetic pieces just keeps climbing. Personally I think Namel just suffers from the "I wanna be a trox" sindrome that affects nanomages (no offence, mate, but it's very noticeable just how biased your opinion is).

    P.S. I've used the 205 and 209 bots extensively, so don't give me that crap about only better bot is at 217. It's simply not true.
    Guvernu RK 1 engineer... bored with SKing (already ffs)
    equip

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGovernment
    No 250 brain and suddenly one piece of arithmetic becomes two. No 270 eye either, more points of difference. Being stuck with lower ql arith because you can't hotswap ql 300, and the number of arithmetic pieces just keeps climbing. Personally I think Namel just suffers from the "I wanna be a trox" sindrome that affects nanomages (no offence, mate, but it's very noticeable just how biased your opinion is).
    You can't get either 250 brain or 270 eye until 220. So difference does not exist until then. 200 brain anyone can use and diff between 220, 240 and 270 eye is quite small actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGovernment
    P.S. I've used the 205 and 209 bots extensively, so don't give me that crap about only better bot is at 217. It's simply not true.
    For soloing they are better. For teams you are doing way less damage than someone using level 200 bot. Only 217+ bots beats level 200 in damage.
    "then again, it's also been said by funcom that theye'll try improving pathing again somethime in the 16.x series"
    -Cenelia

    "God I hope not. I don't know how many more improvements we can take."
    -Spleenman

  14. #14
    There's quite a debate around about which slayer is better for what task. From your post however one can understand that 200 bot beats the 201 - 213 bots in every situation, which is only true if you do nothing but SK to 217, and keep fighting low evade, high AC mobs exclusively.
    Guvernu RK 1 engineer... bored with SKing (already ffs)
    equip

  15. #15
    Well I have to say I agree with Namel on this. The only real problems any engineer has is getting out their best bots. With AI there are so many extra nanoskill items and perks that its largely irrelevant what breed you are. Yes a trox takes a lot more effort to selfcast at 220, but being a good or bad engineer has nothing to do with selfcasting your bots. Keeping your bots buffed and trimmed and in control while using your other tools effectively is irrelevant of breed.
    As for bots, I never have been satisfied with the performance of the 201-209 bots. With omnipol, sotos and a snare aura, the 200 slayer hits everything they can and hits it twice. Missions or hecklers. The 200 bot is the SK bot and you can feel ok about using the 213 bot instead of it once you get it, even though it probably still underperforms the 200 bot. If theres a trader to help debuff ACs that can change, but traders are very rare.

  16. #16
    Anyone ever try soloing Arachnis with the 200 bot? It has the most hp of all the bots...
    Guvernu RK 1 engineer... bored with SKing (already ffs)
    equip

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGovernment
    Anyone ever try soloing Arachnis with the 200 bot? It has the most hp of all the bots...
    but also the least AC's, evades & AR. Arachnis would kill it in only a few hits.
    Ventor: lvl 220 PVP-Engi (RK-2)...
    Edenbeast: lvl 129 adv
    Linchpin: lvl 32 agent
    Innerspirit: lvl 136 doc
    Trifixion: lvl 1 trader (froob transfer acct)

  18. #18
    I know, Ventor. My reply was bit of sarcasm to the post above mine. Didn't bother to put a sarcastic smiley face.
    Guvernu RK 1 engineer... bored with SKing (already ffs)
    equip

  19. #19
    I never said the 200 bot should be used to solo anything. I said it was the SK bot. Its definitely the worst bot for soloing, but thats irrelevant in a team situation. If you read my post you would see I never even implied it should be used to solo.

  20. #20
    I've read it again and, no offense, but it doesn't seem quite that clear to me. You don't say that it should be used for soloing, but you don't say it shouldn't either. The way your arguement is constructed it appears (to me at least) that the 201-209 bots are no good at all and you give missions and hecklers as an exemple, not as the only situations where the other bot parameters are irrelevant.
    Guvernu RK 1 engineer... bored with SKing (already ffs)
    equip

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