Athens Accords, try two (With repost)

[______________Windie]

I still want to discuss the validity or invalidity of the Athens Accords, and now maybe that the First order argument is calming down some we actually can.

To restate my opener...

Seeing a group with no formal authority 'taking' such police actions into their own hands always warms the heart. Has it occurred to any of you Athens Accords members that you have NO right to do such things?

The CoT for all its flaws is a duly appointed governing body, and I'm suprised omni doesn't hold the signing factions as treasonous.

To recap, peace under the heel of a dictatorial force and enforced by "Pain of Death" is as bad as Omni is, if not worse.

[Tredge]

As a member of Division9 and having played a small part in the creation of the Athen Accord, I've still never been eager to come to these forums and talk about it. The primary reason is that I find, over and over, that the people who are arguing the loudest against it have either never read it, or they tried to read it but couldn't understand it. I'm not going to explain it here either; in our minds the language in the document is clear enough. But I can address some misconceptions from Windie's post:

1) The Athen Accord is not a police action, far from it actually. That is a complete misnomer and bends rhetoric farther than it can go. The Athen Accord is a diplomatic action, and is in the interests of both sides of the conflict, in spirit and in practice.

2) I cannot speak for the signatories on the clan side, but I can address Division9's role in this agreement, as it pertains to our place in Omni-Tek on Rubi-Ka. In any large company, at least any that are well-run, the topmost management decides general policy and course. They do not determine specific courses of action except on a very large scale, as in the case of Chairman Ross' meeting with Radiman. They strategize, as in this example Chairman Ross gives when he declared the Amnesty for the members of the clans. It is left to the heads of departments to decide how to carry out the leadership's strategy, within the parameters of the company policy. Division9 is one such department.

If you plan to wait for Chairman Ross to tell you exactly what you should be doing, you'll never do anything. It is far past his role to hand orders to the departments. He declares an Amnesty, and it's the job of the department to figure out how to operate in the spirit of it. That is what we've done, we've been recognized by the corporation for our work—that is all the reward we want.

[_____________Kirrana]

Windie,

You make an interesting point however what right do you have to even suggest that the Athens Accord is not valid. Just because no accounment has been made to allow the Accord to past into law by the same state no statement has been made to say they have done anything wrong.

But also why are you so upset about this, The accord is an aggrement between the guilds that sign up to it. As guilds we have the right to deicde our own relationships to the other guilds be they clan omni or neutral.

My guild is not in any alliance and I do not approve of the measure in the Athen Accord but as it does not effect me or Omni-Tek I have no problem with it either.

If you are to sugest that guilds do not have this right then perhaps you could explain the vast number of alliances which exist on both sides. It would make CCL, Redfreedom, TBA and all the smaller pacts between any guilds wrong.


To recap, peace under the heel of a dictatorial force and enforced by "Pain of Death" is as bad as Omni is, if not worse

This is twice you have made this statement I judge you have some meaning to it. But if you are trying to apply it to the Athens Accord then you are wrong. If this is just another backhand swipe at omni-tek then that is fair enough, I have can to expect that from the clans.

The Athens Accord is not a dictatorial force and if said they have little power of people over any one. The Accord forms the baises for one of the oldest wishes of man. That of protection which we all know is strenght in numbers, this need is often found by having a common goal and creating an alliance. Is this not why the clans came together to form COT, why right did anyone give them ?

[______________Luxxan]

The area of contention is whether or not the signing parties are treasonous. The reasoning behind this is that the Athen Accords is not a "mutual defense" pact; at least not on the surface. Yet it is quite normal to see mixed Clan/Omni AA member teams present at any military situation. Ostensibly, this is to encourage peace in the area (policing); however, the mixed teams means that AA members can and will come to the defense of their fellow members, despite side. Omni employees fire on other Omni employees in defense of fellow Clan AA members and Clan will fire on Clan in defense of Omni AA members.

Neither policing actions nor mutual defense are directly supported or even mentioned in the Athen Accords, and can easily (and understandably) been seen as treasonous by either side in the conflict. It demonstrates that AA faction members are willing to "take liberties" with their political position which are not outlined in their political accords and also implies that they have an agenda outside that mentioned in the Accords.

[________________mege]

Forget what the Athen Accords actually says for a moment - and think about what the ACTIONS actually have been pertaining to it. "Mutual Defense" of MMD (how long ago was this?) is sure a police action. Clanners and OMNI fighting side by side against other OMNIs - bleh. Any action that has been taken by the OMNI AA members that would counter this? I am interested to hear...

Besides what the AA is about, any alliance just splits OMNI-Tek further apart. We do not need a pact to say "hey, lets go make peace with the clanners." OMNI-Tek already has a policy on that - do you really need to reiterate it? Also, any OMNI-Tek faction that is involved in an alliance or pact or treaty independant of an OMNI-Tek action is alienating themselves from the rest of the factions.

Rather then each waving a different color OMNI-Tek flag, lets all wave the correct one, eh? We must work as a whole Despite political preferences!

[______________Canary]

I really find it strange to be agreeing with Mege at this point, and for much the same (if on opposite side) reasons. Politics DOES make strange bedfellows.

The AA ultimately DOES isolate its signatories from their putative affiliations. When one has Opposing Force and other AA personnel announcing that "All non-AA clan people should now leave the area" in disputed, but neutral areas (MMD), one is definitely setting oneself up as A) an authority, and B) a seperate power. I might accept it from CoT troops, but certainly not from someone who cannot reasonably claim any authority over me.

So ultimately, in action, I see the AA definitely as isolating itself from the other clans, and it sounds like they are isolating themselves from other Omni factions as well.

Sure sounds like a third power block to me.

[______________Windie]

as some others have said, look at what it does not what it says.

Each time I've seen {AA} in action, they've been 'taking over' a situation whether in MMD or Omni HQ or wherever. The message has been the same, don't fight, leave or DIE. I know most of the signers and they usually mean well. The fact is you have NO right to tell me or anyone else outside of the signing clans to do anything.... and yet you do. Each time you police an area, you convince the rest of us a little more that in the end you are just trying to control us all. If we take peace though fear we might as well be under omni-pol again.

Seems dictatorial to me, don't you think?

As far as the treason issue goes, due to some issues in the past I'm unwilling to yell treason, but I would say look who you're signing with...

To Tredge, departments are given jobs.... Don't do Omni-Pols. And really I read the accord, and I argued with the clan signers at the time, partially for these reasons. My question to you is how can you say its NOT policing people?

Kiranna, the point isn't making alliances, its what power that alliance takes upon itself. To use your example, the CCL didn't speak for anyone but member clans, if even them. Red Freedom is/was a paramilitary organization but again only gave orders to members. We never tried to tell Utildai or Rederon or Lorekeep what to do, because they weren't part of the organization and we understood the limits of our authority and in the end were after freedom. When this broke down, most member organizations quit RF.

(Little ooc sidenote, of course I'm going to consider clan authority more valid than omni authority- the real point is that omni and the council have authority, and when you walk through the little faction door you're tacitly accepting that authority. I just don't remember walking through YOUR door)

[______________Quzjak]

The Athen accord does indeed preach peace, but I have seen many members of it openly kill nuetrals for no reason whatsoever. They might make the excuse of us being lazy, but it still in essence contradicts their own preachings. Also as stated earlier, the Athens Accord (or at least many mebers of it) is attempting to establish a shared-dictatorship. They are hypocrits hiding their lust of violence under the ideal of peace.

I am not against peace treaties, however, nor declaring ones independance (indeed, that is inevitable), but the Athens Accord is not working. First, the members must not openly defy what they preach. I dont believe anything even close to true peace can be established, no matter how many treaties are signed, but those that come even close to following their ideals at least won't disgust me or others, at least not in the same way.....

Of course, what do I know? I'm just a lazy neutral....

[___________Chagidiel]

OOC:

Im sorry, but I still would like to know whatever the OMni folks signed this treaty intended this to be something for all of OmniTek, or only as a couple of fractions within Omni making theire own deal?

[_________CaptFallout]

The alliances (any kind) are divisive and essentially useless. They only seem to show up when major events occur (and that is rare) so their commitment is minimal, and it seems to get attention.

I have no problem with them except that their diplomatic actions extend well beyond what a simple collection of employees should do.

I am beginning to doubt the competience of Omni-Tek...

Not punishing traitors like DC and TBA and allowing organizations to magically do whatever they want even though it is not their right to do it.

What's next? Public elections of who runs Omni-1? Organization created assisstant to Phillip Ross? Bleh.


Omni-Tek! Give us our limits, if you don't we can never do our best!

[___________Chagidiel]

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"I am beginning to doubt the competience of Omni-Tek..."

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The doors are always open here at Omni-Reform, even for you Mr Fallout...

[Digitlcoup]

The AA has simply been formed to "keep the peace" that is being worked out by Boss Ross and Radiman as we speak. It could be perceived as a police force but from what?

It is to maintain people's safety from the extremists who randomly attack members from both sides without just cause. I remind everyone that the AA has been formed as a response to the peace talks and it has been created to help bring about that peace.

Extremist clans and Omni Divisions are working against the interests of their leaders and it is these groups that should be perceived as the traitors here. They disobey their leaders every time they fire a shot without provocation.

Furthermore, I have a responsibility to uphold the mission statement of my clan as I see best. Our mission statement is "to bring peace" to the free people of Rubi-Ka. This accord assures that our freedom is maintained and that we can proceed to have peace. This has been the expressed wishes of both Radiman and Philip Ross. As long as the freedom of the clans is maintained we will support this.

Canary stated that she does not answer to any dictatorial power. However, my question is, is she engaging in attacks on PvP zones while the COT strives for peace? The last time I checked, humanity has enforced laws against unjustified violent activity throughout the course of it's existence. This certainly does not seem like a dictatorial stance on the AA members part to me then.

Finally, we have no desire to turn against our fellow clanners. However, I hope that they come to see that "terrorist" activies as performed by the Red Freedom (and Dark Alliance) undermines the Amnesty movement which will (hopefully) bring all of us a lasting peace. If anyone is against this movement it is then that they will be considered enemies of peace and of the AA!

[________________mege]

Originally posted by Atilius the Hun
Extremist clans and Omni Divisions are working against the interests of their leaders and it is these groups that should be perceived as the traitors here. They disobey their leaders every time they fire a shot without provocation.

So we should help to persecute traitors within the rebel factions, who in fact would be working toward OMNI-Tek's goals? Sounds like an interesting proposition... no.

[Digitlcoup]

No, it's about following orders (in your case) and the guidance (our case) that the leaders take. Ross and Radiman wouldn't have engaged in these talks if there was a sense that there could be an agreement whereby both sides came to an acceptable conclusion that allowed both sides to live in peace.

This is not about Clans supporting Omni-Tek's goals or vice versa. This accord is NOT about undermining anyone's postion or loyalty but rather the opposite. This is about pursuing a path that could bring about peace and prosperity for all. By posting your negative remarks you hereby demonstrate that you lack faith in your chain of command. Taking action that is clearly against the stated direction that your leader has taken should be grounds for disciplinary action against you.

If you do lack such faith, perhaps you should think about finding employment elsewhere? I on the other hand fully support the Council of Truth and this action is intended to support their decision to explore the beneficial path of peace.

[______________Windie]

'Go work somwhere else'? For shame!!!

[Digitlcoup]

Hehe. We do after all have a greater dimension of beliefs and attitudes within us than some of the bureaucratic corporations.