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Thread: PvP balance problems introduced in 13.0, and funcoms answer.

  1. #1

    PvP balance problems introduced in 13.0, and funcoms answer.

    I play an NT, and obviously, i was concerned with the changes in 13.0, since if they came through would completely nerf my class ability to PvP. So i mailed Funcom;

    All damage output in PvP is halved. All healing is still at full effect. Here already we have a clear imbalance, those classes that can combine a decent damage output with healings will have a clear advantage on all other classes, and doctors will be close to invincible in PvP. The only real solution for this problem that i can see is to halve all healing done while in combat with another player, this would restore heal/damage ratio to what it was before, and i think it was balanced. Now this would probably solve most of the problems, but (always a but) theres one problem that i see, and that is the nano-technicians. As it is todays, even with the improved Humiditary extractors, it is often a close call for a NT if his nanopool will be enough to kill another player, against Martial artists and adventurer it is -always- a close call and sometimes the NT has to refill his Nanos during the fight. With damage output halved NTs will hardly stand a chance to kill someone with their current high nano costs for formulas, not to mention fighting the classes that can actually heal. And as if that was not enough, Nano formulas does not initialize combat, so even if heals were capped to half what it normally does when in PvP combat, people would still be able to heal full against NTs since nuking doesnt count as being in combat.

    Now there must be a way to solve this. Lets see:
    A) Halve healing while in PvP combat.
    B) Make offensive Nano formulas (roots, dots, nukes) initialize combat.
    C) Enhance the Crunchcom line of NFs slightly, making them reduce the cost a little more.

    This would solve all the problems with balance introduced in 13.0 and put PvP balance back to what it is today, with the exception that there will be no more instant kills and fights will take longer. If this is the way things would end up after 13.0 i think pretty much everyone would enjoy PvP alot more.

    Now, i honestly doesnt even think that this mail will be more than perhaps skimmed through, i myself run a MUD with about one thousand players and i know how hard it is to read and consider all feedback, but please consider this, if not i fear that PvP will be seriously nerfed after 13.0. Anyway, due to these changes im going back to playing my adventurer, he has more tokens than my NT anyway :P



    And this is their answer:

    Greetings! Thanks for the feedback. The dev team always loves to get
    input from players. We have gotten a handful of emails regarding the
    halving of damage and intact healing and understand why people might be
    concerned about the imbalance it may make with healing classes. All I
    can say is that they have been testing this new change and it has not
    resulted in much of a power shift (otherwise they wouldn't be
    implementing it).

    Obviously there may be players (like in all MMOs) that managed to
    manipulate the ruleset to their advantage but remember: no changes to a
    patched game are forever cast in stone. Rest assured that if some
    imbalances show up that make PvP less enjoyable, we will fix them.

    For now, keep enjoying AO =)





    Now i have tried PvP as an NT with halved damage. It is impossible to kill anyone before the nano runs out (well, maybe not at level125+, i dont know). Not to mention when you fight healing classes. The dev team obviously hasnt tested NTs in PvP with the new changes, since i doubt they would make a statement like that if they had.



    Fact: NTs can not kill anyone in PvP.

  2. #2

    Angry Tested the new PvP....... I'm pissed

    Hey, I have several different characters... but I always liked the NTs. The nukers.... masters of all that is Nano...... right!!!!

    I made a second NT for PvP... and he was great. NT solitus with MA skills. At lvl 10 I was undefeated, even by other uber characters... I was only beat once by a lvl 7 agent that had a QL46 rifle with aimed shot.

    My average arena fight when like this:

    1. Root
    2. Accelerated Titanium Pellet 122-227 damage
    3. let them foolishly come inside
    4. Regular punch 20-30 damage
    5. Brawl 30-50 damage 100+ crit
    6. Dimach 200 damage (rarely need)
    7. Accelerated Decay, Halon Cloud, or Chemical Burn 50-103 damage
    8. A few regular punches in between and game over

    It was a good strategy, and worked well for me. Now it goes something like this:

    1. Accelerated Titanium Pellet for about 70 damage
    2. Regular hit for about 10
    3. Brawl for about 15
    4. Dimach for about 90
    5. Accelerated Decay, Halon Cloud or Cheical Burn 25-50
    6. Repeat step 5 about 2 or 3 times.
    7. Opponent heals to full health
    8. I run out of nano
    9. regular hit for 10 <~~~ no nano at this point
    10. Respawn and stare at reclaim terminal like a jackass.

    NT is unplayable at PvP now especially arena PvP

    Thanks Funcom :-(

  3. #3

    Actually half-heals won't work

    Imagine, if you will, that some PVP actually took place more that 10m from a whompa or grid exit. Say you were in Deep artery valley hunting and found a party very busy with a huge mob. Hmm, good time to ambush em, your enemy's enemy is your friend, true? So you attack, now all their heals are at half, including the damage the mob is doing, which is not half. Heck you can shoot and run a bit out of range and let the mob finish the job =].

    What really needs to happen is there needs to be one combat system where PVP and PVM are balanced. As of now there are 2 combat systems. I really think the best answer is just to doubble players HPs, leave mobs the same, keep the 40% cap on any 1 attack, and remove the 50% off all attacks.

    My crazy thoughts.

  4. #4
    Docs are not invincible now. It is only a matter of time. Its not like we have 10000000 nano. As a lvl 53 soli doc I can probably heal myself 9 or 10 times if I don't cast any offensive nanos. Each heal does ~300-430 (I know I need to upgrade). Keep in mind, this is without DOTs, which cost 100 and 200 nano each. After DOTs and a nuke or 2 thats only about 5 heals left in me.

  5. #5

    Healing classes have an advantage, not that I mind

    but really most pvp takes place now 1 step or 2 from a zone, and even if you can only heal yourself 5-7 times, after you've exhausted your last heal you can step into the whompa and be gone.

    One of the reason's why zand and his bunch rock 2ho is because they are all docs, mas, Advs, fixers and traders. Debuff and healing classes basically rock.

    I'm a soldier, but i say good for them, most of their classes needed some love in PVP and now they got it. I guess zand pretty much rocked it pre-patch, but hey a little extra love doesn't hurt.

  6. #6

    re: suupsasayen

    It is not a matter of time, Nts does rarely have nanos enough to kill a doc, if a doc casts one heal on themself the NT is chanceless due to the fact that he runs out of nano.

  7. #7

    I agree with the PvP imbalances in 13.0, and more...

    You guys have made a good point with all the new imbalances 13.0 has made. Hopefully someone important will read these posts and work to balance them out again. A summarization of the imbalances I've experienced and heard about:

    - Healing nanos. They are now twice as powerful because they still heal for 100% of what they use to while damage is lowered 50%. Those who can heal in combat (not counting first aids) have a significant advantage over those who don't heal.

    - Cutting PvP damage in half. I don't think this is a very good solution to what was trying to be fixed. Now there are two sets of damage we have to familiarize ourselves with - one for mobs, one for other players. Sure... pvp is simply half, but to someone who really pays attention to the damage they do (knows what they normally crit for, knows their average brawl, knows when a good burst hits), having TWO sets of damage types is just an unessecary hassle.

    - Those that rely on nano's for damage are disadvantaged. Theoretically, an NT will need twice as much nano to kill someone. A soldier will need twice as much bullets. NT uses nano first aid and is ok. Soldier reloads ammo and is ok. NT runs out again an tries to use first aid... still has to wait several seconds. Soldier reloads fine and kills off NT. I'm not saying soldiers need to be nerfed, I'm saying that twice as much nano points will be consumed in battle while the ability to replenish nano has not increased "twice" as much to meet the balance, pre-patch. A solution for this is not to lessen the recharge time of first aid - it's the -50% damage rule that's the problem to begin with in my opinion!

    - Pets, from what I've heard, still do 100% damage. However, they also still "take" 100% damge... which sounds fair. But to me it sounds screwy to have people dealing damage on one specific scale, while pets do their damage on another damage scale... while in the same battle!

    - This next example doens't have to do with the new patch but I thought I'd mention it. I was playing my NT against an enf. I rooted him and started to nuke. Then he healed. He was using a hacked graft because the general heal would do nothing at this lvl. Ok, so I continuted to root and nuke as effectively as I could, while he was landing some good shots between roots. I finally used up my nano first aids so I had to run. Upon fleeing, the enforcer was at full health despite the nukes. You might say that I have weak nukes. I say it's because he was able to use the graft over and over and also because heals weren't halved along with the damage. What good is an Adv or MA (as far as having a healing advantage) if ANYONE can use a hacked healing graft to the efficiency described in my NT vs. Enf example?

    Why was the -50% PvP rule implemented? Maybe to prevent instant kills, which I can understand. But if someone who just came from a hunting spree (with un-updated armor/weapons and all) walks into a PvP zone and complains about getting killed too fast... that's not a good reason to cry "Halve the PvP damage! Halve the PvP damage so it will be fair!" No one should be forced to always have updated armor/weapons/nanos, but if you walk into a PvP zone for god's sake you better be prepared! If this is the reason why damage was halved (to give "unprepared" players who enter PvP zones a sporting chance), that sounds like bull to me. However, there are people who are fully "prepared", enter PvP , and still get killed fast as well. And yes, a balancing issue sounds justified in that sense - but the -50% damage rule created more problems than fixed. Some would say that twinking is the problem in PvP. Yeah, some twinking can reach ubsurd levels but I don't think "completely" eliminating it would be good either. What would Rubi-ka be like if all lvl 50 soldiers carry lvl 50 guns? Sounds boring to me. One aspect of this game I like is the ability to customize yourself to try to be a more formidable foe. Some say putting a "cap" on EXTREME twinking is a solution, which sounds good to me. And others say twinking should become non-existent. It seems to me that those are the players who either never PvP, or die too much in PvP. And some say I'm trying to write a frickin' essay so I'll end it here. Bottom line: halving PvP damage at first sounds like a valid solution but it really isn't. Instant kill battles = too fast, unfair. Sloowww battles (-50% rule intact) = verrrrry boring. Somewhat fast battles = exciting, adrenaline pumping! There must be another solution out there!!!!

  8. #8
    Do you realize if we did 50% Heals. We'd be right back at square one? Just only halfed.

    So basicly a enforcer should still over power a MA on dmg output , cause while he does 800 dmg per hit (400) Ma hit for 200 (100).

    This just makes heal finally effctive now, instead of dieing 3 seconds into battle , we can cast a effective heal spell.

  9. #9
    pvp prepatch took all of 2-15 seconds to complete.. that is not playing.. not really fun (even if you win, which I did many times)

    the half rule was a step in the right direction.. but still needs work.

    100%healing is a bear i agree, when I can halve an MA and he can heal to full again it is painful (as painful as those brawls, dimachs and fists). MA rules pvp melee now even with my mongo bash.

    but 50% healing leaves lots of room for exploits.. so your out hunting and someone attacks you.. the doc just lost 50% of his healing just because there is a player engaged.. even though the mob is still doing 100% damage to his tank.. i see griefer written all over that one.

  10. #10
    Originally posted by [CrispyChicken]
    Do you realize if we did 50% Heals. We'd be right back at square one? Just only halfed.

    So basicly a enforcer should still over power a MA on dmg output , cause while he does 800 dmg per hit (400) Ma hit for 200 (100).

    This just makes heal finally effctive now, instead of dieing 3 seconds into battle , we can cast a effective heal spell.
    I think that's exactly what we all realize, but with half the damage output, the battle will likely last long enough for other classes to have a chance vs. an aimed shot, or the FA, Burst, Fling, Regular combo.

    Who is "WE?"

    Plus, an enforcer's 800/400 damage is usually twice as slow as an MA's 200/100, so with your 100% heal, that equals out....Math is a wonderful thing...embrace it

  11. #11
    Originally posted by [CrispyChicken]
    This just makes heal finally effctive now, instead of dieing 3 seconds into battle , we can cast a effective heal spell.
    The problem with pre-patch PvP was that many battles ended too fast for you to use a heal nano, NOT that heal spells didn't heal enough. So even if heal nanos were reduced to the same scale that damage currently does, it doens't mean healing becomes useless again... because you now have time to use it. It just means that the healing/damage relationship will be in sync again.

    But someone above also mentioned the problems that can arise when reducing heals 50% which is also a very good point.

  12. #12
    Originally posted by vulcan
    Yeah, some twinking can reach ubsurd levels but I don't think "completely" eliminating it would be good either. What would Rubi-ka be like if all lvl 50 soldiers carry lvl 50 guns? Sounds boring to me.
    You do realize that the only real "negative" twinking occurs when you get buffed to equip an item and the buff wears off and you get to keep using the item, right?

    Well if you equip things based upon skills that you have to raise legitimately and maintain you can still use weapons over 10 levels higher than your own. The only difference is that you can't also have all your armor 10 levels higher at the same time (without letting more nano skills wane).

    If they fixed the over-equipping exploit you would actually have real variance because you would be forced to choose a weakness that will help balance your character to Itself. With the exploit still in place there is no reason to really develop your character. There is only 1 solution to PVP character makeup. Super Damage Fast. That is not skill. That is not strategy. That does not promote variety. Unless you want to completely remove yourself from PVP...which is at the core of this game by design...you are Stuck trying to attain the exact same cookie cutter setup as everyone else.

    If you have an edge in PVP it should not be because you had enough high level friends and the cash to make an AO sausage twink. At some point it should be about skill and timing and not some cheesy over-powered alpha strike. That you basically buy instead of earning...like real skill would require.

    Down with Over-equipping! It can and will mangle and maim more of this game the longer it is allowed to continue.

  13. #13
    As it was casters just about ran out of nano during a pvp fight against say, an enforcer.

    Now it's just worse. They run out of nano after the first minute of the fight (Fights against enforcers now last up to 5 or so minutes, assuming you live that long; I had burst recycle twice (that's three bursts in one fight) against an enf).

  14. #14
    Sure, find a way for us MA´s to overequipp our hands aswell and I can agree that healing can be nerfed. Our fighting class has no way to compete with all those that overequipp insane qualitys of weapons.

    You need to look at the PvP balance regarding what a much higher qual weapons will do in a fight. Before the patch those characters could kill easily a "normal" character without any special effort. I mean how fair is it to meet someone that has a twice high weapon in quality as his lvl.

    Yesterday I heard about a lvl 85 Agent that managed to equipp a qual 200 rifle. Think of it, is that fair ?

    Now we got a chance to fight against you overequippers and have a fair chance.

    Yesterday I fought a enforcer equal level (74). He started out by giving me 850 damage by critting his hammer on me. Luckliy I could recover by healing, need I say that I didnt inflict more than 100 damage on him in one normal blow. I did win the fight with 50 health left (and no nano left) when the fight was over, but it was close. A fair fight against somebody that had a very high qual hammer, my heals made the fight fair. I would have died long before that if I wouldnt be able to restore my health.


    Solve the overequipping problem first (wich have been a balancing problem since the start), then think about our healing nanos.

    Funcom, you can start by checking the characters that camps the grid in 2HO.


    A few words that are my thoughts, from someone that has been around since the beta testing.

    /Dragonsphere
    Lvl 74 MA
    Winterfrozt
    Lvl 138 NT

  15. #15

    Dragonsphere

    Here's the deal. Not too many classes overequip. Agents, Fixers, Traders, gun using docs (mausser or vecktor), all will overequiup. Now my definition of overequiping is to get a number of people to give you various stackable buffs so that you can equip a gun and never unequip it.

    Just about every class overequips armor.

    By definition up to two patches ago you too could overequip. You could use implants that you could not normally use with the treatment stack, and you still can with the help of a doc's treatment buffs, omni med suits, and all kinds of other minor treatment tweaks. Your "over equiped" implants allow you to use Attacks and MA weapons that are beyond your level's normal range.

    Agents, traders, fixers and doc's have it the easiest in the over equiping dept since the weapons they use tend to only require 1 skill and buffs exist to enhance these skills easily. At higher levels though things start to even out. That agent will never get a better gun than that, while you will continue to grow right up to 200. So even though he will continue to increase in skill, from here on out his damage curve is going to be shallower than yours up to level 200.

  16. #16
    Hmm... I guess overequiping IS the main problem with PvP, and if this was fixed before, we might not have needed to alter PvP damage in the first place (don't get me wrong, I like battles lasting a "little" bit longer than they used to but not with the -50% rule). However, I don't think that having your weapons or armor "pop out" when the buff runs out will be a "complete" solution because that would only be a hinderance and not a preventative solution. A lvl 20 adv could get AR mastery on the way to 2ho and fight a good 30 min nicely twinked. Plus if he's got friends there's no real problem at all as long as he watches the time remaining on the buff. The solution that I see (let me know if you see problems with this) is that buffs like rifle mastery, snipers bliss, headcracker, or matter creation mastery should be self-only buffs. That way the player with the nano skills to use the buff can equip a stronger weapon, because that player deserves it. This should be added to the "popping out" rule if extreme overequiping is to be prevented.

    If this is the case though I can't think of a use for trader's wranglers anymore since after a few min (3?) you're back to using the lower ql. Sure it prevents extreme overequiping but wranglers were meant to be buffed on others. Hmmm...

    Another problem might be implants because when the surgery clinic treatment boost runs out, will your implants pop out?

    People who get tips for buffs will have income slashed! Personally I thought it was a nice part-time job to get tips for buffs if you don't feel like doing missions at the moment, but I guess that will have to stop if we don't want overequiping. And this would even out the armor a bit since there are a million buffs for stre/sta and virtually none for int/psy.

    My last complaint (probably not a very good one) is that I have to keep my comp lit expertise running 24/7 if I want a better belt. Otherwise... *pop* *pop* *pop* .... I now have to wait 100 sec per NCU to re-equip :P

  17. #17
    ... forgot to mention the main reason I don't like the -50% PvP rule. Pre-patch, super twinks can annihilate the average joe in a few seconds. Post-patch, super twinks can annihilate the average joe taking "many more" seconds. Is that rebalancing?... no, it's just a parallel shift because twinks still have superior damage compared to joe.

    If anything, you now have more time to flee battle. That's nice, but everyone fleeing battle before their health runs out is not my idea of PvP. Pre-patch I almost always stay till the battle is over. Post-patch, and after 3 recycles of burst I realize I will lose for sure and make a run for the wompa since it's such a viable option. Run-run-run... and I make it safely. I felt a little bad for the guy attacking me because all his hard work and no kill... running was pretty easy.

    To get back to the point, balancing out the super twinks, and NOT "everyone's damage", will balance PvP much better.

  18. #18
    Keep in mind that if you have to maintain a buff to keep a weapon or armor over-equipped, you will still suffer loss of usable NCU slots. Got to keep a buffer around, and then forgo the damage shield or HoT buff in order to temporarily use better equipment. That doesn't sound so bad to me, would toss in some variety and very few people would be able to walk into a fight "knowing" that they would always own someone. It would also help promote team PVP a bit more, and put a hurt on the solo glory hogs.

    Plus it would be funny to see someone wandering around PVP waxing people then when his buff wears off.. *pop* no more weapon and he has to go bare knuckle cause his gun is in his inventory .

  19. #19
    Don't know how to quote, but one person said over-equiping is an exploit. No it isn't. If my doc pays some trader to wrangle me 72 points in shotgun does that make me evil? Without buffs from other people my doc would be using a lvl 50 vek (at lvl 53) which would really suck. In PvP right now with a lvl 64 vek I am hopelessly minimun damage locked. Except for the occasional crit I only hit for 7-20 where before I usually did 100+ per hit. I think this is because they subtract dmg for AC after the 50% cut, which I think should be the other way around, but thats not what I'm here to discuss.

  20. #20
    OVerequipping is good. Leave it alone. If you get smacked by someone with a l33t gun, then GET A l33t GUN.

    Crikey.

    And NT's *can* kill people in PVP. Perhaps it becomes apparent at higher levels, but I have seen my brother PVP (by sitting next to him) and he doesn't have much trouble.

    Though It should be said you shouldnt run out of nano in a fight, unless you are an idiot and take on an enforcer 30 levels above you, and youhappen to be an atrox MP/NT etc.

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