PvP balance problems introduced in 13.0, and funcoms answer.

[Isisnorfret]

There is no such thing as over-equipping anymore. The exploits that allowed people to over-equip are fixed, all that remains is legitimate character improvement. I doubt you lazy clunkheads who whine about over-equipping realize how much time, effort, and know-how it takes to make an uber character. Those who put the effort in deserve the rewards they reap.

The only over-equipped characters that exist now are the ones who had implants in before they fixed treatment clinics. Funcom took the easy way out and assumed that they would all lvl and it wouldn't matter - but they're not. PvP whores stayed low before to fight n00bs, and now they have even more reason not to go lvling. I think something needs to be done to de-equip ppl with impossibly high implants.

[__________NicholaSix]

It will work in time. Since there isn't a growing customer base, and fewer people are creating new characters at some point the sub-40 twinks will have to level or they will have nobody to OWNZ.

If you don't believe me go cruise through Holes in the walls, borialias, or any of those noob hunting areas. They are deserted. Heck even varmint woods is mostly empty now.

Give it another month before you draw the conclusion that it failed. Anyway these people are really easy to avoid. First off they mostly stick to 2ho because its the last place they can grid and whompa camp. Second, if you do go there go by whompa, because of the new pvp system, you can back right out again if you get camped on zone most of the time. Of course if there are 4 or 5 camping the whompa you won't live but heck sometimes you just have to die.

[______________Profit]

Originally posted by Sandrix
There is no such thing as over-equipping anymore. The exploits that allowed people to over-equip are fixed, all that remains is legitimate character improvement. I doubt you lazy clunkheads who whine about over-equipping realize how much time, effort, and know-how it takes to make an uber character. Those who put the effort in deserve the rewards they reap.

The only over-equipped characters that exist now are the ones who had implants in before they fixed treatment clinics. Funcom took the easy way out and assumed that they would all lvl and it wouldn't matter - but they're not. PvP whores stayed low before to fight n00bs, and now they have even more reason not to go lvling. I think something needs to be done to de-equip ppl with impossibly high implants.

IF you feel that only way to 'overequip' was via implants, keep in mind the buff way through roof then never need to worry about skills again on an item is still an issue for many people. As any program class poitns out, and near as I can tell, rightfully so, they must have active skills to use their gear, so why should gear classes dodge this bullet becasue they know some high level character willign ot buff them through the roof? The desire to make frequent customer self only I am sure was heavily motivated by this effect.

However, I still agree wtih your second statement. If you can't use the items you have, something should be done i think. Make a reason to have active programs or use more gear.

Granted, I'm a trader. Any market where there is a reason to use something other than 'the best possible combination' is a good one for player economy and those markets are harder to see when everyone just wants somethign 10 levels or better that they need a bnunch of buffers to help them equip.

Is over equipping gone? Matter of point of view. Does more need to be done to level the field from old abuses? I'm inclined to agree.

Profit

[_____________Tiphany]

Originally posted by ULTRA1
Here's the deal. Not too many classes overequip. Agents, Fixers, Traders, gun using docs (mausser or vecktor), all will overequiup. Now my definition of overequiping is to get a number of people to give you various stackable buffs so that you can equip a gun and never unequip it.

Where did you receive this make believe information? All classes over equip. All weapon using classes, all bot using classes, all armor using classes and all classes that use implants. If you consider overequiping only for weapons, then it's all classes except for characters that use MA with no weapon.

Typically, the largest over equipers are Enforcers.(great, more power to them. They need all the help they can get) I've seen enforcers with weapons 3 times their level. But if they laid down 600k for the implants, and 150k on buffs, then so be it. You want to compete, you do the same. But people are too lazy to earn the credits necessary to built the 6 million dollar man(or Atrox, whichever you prefer). Most Soldiers don't because a lot of them switch weapons. All skills are able to be raised extensively by buffs, implants, pillows, guns, blah, blah, blah...

So once again, all classes over equip. There may be some paths that need to be reduced so for example an Agent isn't equiping a gun 4 times it's level, but it doesn't need to be removed. Calculating how to best equip your character is a major area for this game and shouldn't be removed. It's built into the infrastructure of the game.

Then again, in the example above, I haven't seen Agents being devastatingly powerful in pvp as of late, so I'm not sure it's a bad idea for them to over equip.

Another example, Engies get wranglers and MP buffs to cast a bot higher than them. Should the pet not respond when the buffs go away? It's all part of the mechanics of the game.

Take it from me as a Trader, everyone over equips. Doesn't matter if it's guns, armor, implants, etc.. everyone does it. It's one of the few things that allows people to be different.

[_____________Malicea]

hello typh i just wanna say i have a class who don t overequip
it s MP maybe now with the summoned weapon they will and it s not sure so overequiping not all class it same for NT or MA personnally always self buff oh yeah i maybe used trader buff for use my flying nano or for learn another nano but not for cast it 8p

Malicea
Phoenix leader

[Lordbonez]

Are far as over equiping goes, Yes, every class will do it, thats part of the game, you have to, If you want any chance of becoming a half decent character.

What i see FC is doing is they are trying to create a balance in part of the game (notice the word 'part') which inevitibly unbalances everything else.

They have created a game where in theory you choose a profession/breed each with different potentials, then they keep changing the game to make them all equal???

Why?

Well IMHO this game was meant to be so much more then just PVP and PVM based. Unfortunatly thats all there is in the game, hence all these 'different potentials' of the Profs/breeds no longer apply. Everyone has to fight (Or die of extreme bordom), what else can you do. Is a trader meant to spend all their time killing mobs, is a NT a glorified assasin of a master of Nano technology? shouldn't a fixer fix stuff instead of bashing heads together. The answer i think is yes they should, the reality is they can't.

Ok so trade skills have yet to be fully implemented, But as it stands i see AO as two different games in one (PVP and PVM), both combat based, both going on in the same world, but working under different rules. This doesn't work, never has and never will (please correct me if i'm wrong i'm a Games designer and would like to know otherwise).

The main problem is we have too many Professions which in my opinion are more for variety than any other reason. There meant to be different, played differently by different people and good at different things. Majority of people i've meet only want to be the best character they can be in PVP and PVM, and who can blame them, there is nothing else to do in the game. As for the social aspect, yes it does exist but lets face it, i'm not interested in going to a virtual bar to have a virtual drink, a real one is so much better.

Some proffesions like Soliders, MA, Enforces should have an advantage in PVP otherwise what is the point in having professions at all, But then the other Proffesions should excel in the non-existant parts of the game.

The 13.0 patch in regards to PVP has ruined some of the difference between classes. NT's in PVP are now useless, while other combat professions no longer have any real advantages over the non-combat proffesions. If people want to PVP then fine, but expect Soliders to be better than you it's there job.

I'm sure everyone agrees zone camping is crap, but 50% cap on damage is stupid. The idea that reducing damage output will balance PVP seems strange to me, you can't just throw in a quick fix to something that was originally intended in the game. Other than the zone camping (which was fixed by todays patch although i haven't checked this yet) what actually was the problem with PVP? the non-combat profs couldn't hack it? Oh well

Overall AO is fatally flawed not in design, but in implementation, If you can stick it out then yes, this could be the game it promised, Me, personally am not a kin to the idea of paying to play a game which is in development. If AO is around in a year from now i will be very surprised.

[Arinia]

There isn't really a distinction being made here between over equipping and twinking.

Over equipping is bad (twinking) when you have a higher level character that gives mad cash or implants to your lower level char. It upsets the balance of the game. People who do not have the resources or desire to go this route are severely handicapped.

Over equipping is good when you do it yourself. Personally, I can buff myself into swords 18 QL above me and armor (now) 10 QL above me. I paid for the implants. I paid to have them assembled. I would have paid for the buffs, but luckily, I have friends who I help out in other ways. I worked hard for the cash. I still get owned in PvP, at L50.

Something is clearly wrong here. I have some freaking awesome swords, the ability to heal, and decent armor. When I lagged into MMD and try to figure out where the grid exit is (never did find that one, got gridcamped every time) some 46-47 enforcer attacks me:

Player Jerk hit you for 100 points of melee damage.
You hit Jerk for 20 points of melee damage.
Player Jerk hit you for 125 points of melee damage.
You hit Jerk for 17 points of melee damage.
Player Jerk hit you for 275 points of Dimach damage.
Executing nano program: Greater Quick Heal.
Player Jerk hit you for 150 points of melee damage.
Your execution of Greater Quick Heal was interrupted by Player Jerk.
Player Jerk hit you for 175 point of melee damage.
You hit player jerk for 8 points of brawl damage.
Player Jerk hit you for 100 points of melee damage.
Jerk sighs.
Your remains will be reclaimed in 60 seconds...

You get it? Obviously the guy is bored but still takes pleasure in kicking other peoples ass who clearly have no way of harming them. My QL68 swords should have no problem hitting him for at least 75 damage, I mean, come on.

Profit's right: "Is over equipping gone? Matter of point of view. Does more need to be done to level the field from old abuses? I'm inclined to agree. "

I over equip. I'm not an twink. I think that I'd have some more balance if others didn't have super equipment 60 QL above them.

People are complaing that PvP is dying out, and the game shoud be centered on PvP. I don't want to twink. I'd like to try PvP. Where does that put me? Currently, not in this game, anywhere. Perhaps this is why PvP is dying out -- you have a select few people that are kicking everyone elses' asses.

I created a new enforcer last night, hopefully FC will prove me wrong soon.

[Temporis]

It's so hartwarming to hear Mr bond 10 post up say that NT's don't run out of Nano now in fights....I feel so reassured now....

A whole bunch of higher and medium level NT's have stated over and over in these treads that it's impossible to come even close to killing an equal level player, even without taking into account healing, before depleting your nano pool,
Many characters of other professions have agreed with these statements, but we just have to be doing something horribly wrong don't we, Funcom???

Uuhm and BTW, for all the rest of you reading this post...
Although I normaly refrain from giving my 'Expert' opinion about classes I havent played extensively, I will write down a few UN-expert opinions here, feel free to comment :

- It IS normal that a character that has wisely invested in himself has an advantage in PvP, although this potential advantage should be somewhat 'controlled'

- Some professions are based on wielding higher QL weapons of a specific type, this was intended so, and was not unbalancing in itself methinks, IF using this weapon WITHOUT the extraordinary buffs would yield somewhat less efficiency....
if only the evade skills were a bit beter thought of...Investing percious IP in evades should yield you a tangible advantage, not just avoiding crits....
A higher evade skill should yield you a lower 'medium' damage to you from the appropriate weapon, not just hoping and praying for that 1 'miss' that never comes... a sliding scale approach, attack skill compared to defense skill grants you a certain potential damage reduction, perhaps percentage wise reduction on the hit...
This doesnt take away from the fact that a high QL weapon user is still powerfull, it would just allow for some balance to be created,
To be honest, I think the defense skills are key in any future PvP balance....If I dont invest in explosion evade, Then Im not complaining about that Vector user critting all the time (noticed yet that vectors do explosion damage peeps : ) )
Tactics...you locate your opponents weak spots and use them to your advantage, every class has them, this is where the ingenuity of PvP comes in....

- Im sorry, but NT need a serious look at here, I've seen the comments too, "the naughty NT rooted me etc etc"... sorry people, I need to invest in ranged dodge to avoid crits, I expect you to do the same for nano resist if you dont want to be glueed to the floor while NT lights up a smoke, the fact remains that our damage output is now capped in such a way that makes it useless to PvP any equal level. Also our range and consistent damage output is about the only thing we had going for us, I HAVE played PVP as other classes, if you dont play NT right, your just a ripe soft tomato, *SPLAT*

- Implants and armor poping out when buff expires...I dont think so, (and I'm cutting into my own flesh here, because INT armor doesnt buff AT ALL, While STR STAM buffs like madness), I accept that the 'Thougher' classes can have higher class armor on

- However, I know the treatment thing is a sore spot, but if we ever wish to have a level playing field again, the uber implants that went in BEFORE the Treatment fix Will have to come out... make it a one time thing...I dont care, after that has been handled, implants stay in after the clinic/medsuit/doc buff wears of....Ip are short enough as it is, and treatment useless

- Specials add flavor to combat for some professions, they have their place, and should be significant, however, if proper defensive precautions have been taken, One shot kills should not be of this world....HOWEVER, IF Anyone From FunnyCom would be reading this, the way you handled this now totaly messed up the balance people, I can't Believe you Implemented this without any significant test, WE the customer are NOT Paying YOU, the provider for TESTING YOUR APPLICATION, We pay you good money, hire some testers....

All in all...I know this is a very dangerous thing to say, but I did not feel PVP was overly unbalanced before this One shot kill situation became apparent, and these knee-jerk reaction changes started going in,
It all went downhill pretty fast from there,
I PvPed most classes in July/august, was not twinked but had invested in my char, and I won and lost to all, even soldiers and agents...I just have the feeling that this whole situation could have been avoided with a sensible tested approach to the problem....

Well sure I forgot some stuff, but it'll come back to me

So...let the Flaming commence... (looks furiously for Nullity Sphere ))

ciao

Temporis

[______________Frodur]

God post, i agree!

Just want to add some other thing.
Arena-PvP, 2HO & MMD PvP could never come close to being "fair". High lvl professions is getting a ****load of tells from "title-hunters" that actually want to pay for HP-buff, crit-buffs, skin, ac-buff and all the buffs thats in the game --> to get an advantage in PvP.
I would NEVER with my noob go into the arena and fight a lvl 30 Agent without first asking him to /terminate and res before we fight :-)

[__________NicholaSix]

I liked the old system much better. IF there were no damage caps and no 50% rule that would be grand.

One of the main reasons soldiers got so nurfed is that no one spent IPs on dodge ranged. I've never *****ed about being rooted. I haven't invested in nano resist, it's about as close to indigo as blue gets for me, and I understand why some people don't bother with dodge ranged for the same reason. THIS is called class variety. I think classes should have nemisi. Soldiers and NTs are this way to each other. Neither class can defend well against the other and both classes had attacks that could quickly drop the other.

I think it would be nice to see a 30% increase or so in both player HPs and Nano pools. This would help to put the higher level game back in balance a bit with PVM. One thing good for me about the current PVP system is it gives us soldiers a GOOD reason to get some of our WAY over nurfed specials back. I also wouldn't mind a recharge delay between our specials of some reasonable number as that would be good for PVP and not have a big effect on PVM.

I think the 15 sec of saftey when you zone is a good thing in the works. Zone camping is a big problem with the game.

[________________Jabz]

Over-equipping is to me the largest PvP drawback of the game right now.. It's not even funny anymore.. I dont stand a fighting chance agaisnt anything but newbies in the Arena.. And I'm equipped straight through 10 lvls above me.. I can get there, maybe even higher with better implants, on my own.. But that dont help me.. At lower levels(Anything lower than say 10 lvls within maxlvl..?) It all balances out towards the end of course..

Those whining about liking over-equipping obviously dont do this because they get their ass kicked all the time by people with the right connections and their mission EQ from the -hardest damn setting- wont do them jack against twinkie over here-- No those are the ones like me, the only 10 lvls above myself EQ newbie hunter coward who gets smacked by MP's with sledgehammers and EQ 8 times their own level.. Hmm.. How do I make my point without sounding whiny, any whining should always be disregarded in a constructive debate on how to make PvP better.. But then we wouldn't even have a thread *sigh*

I'd like to see an actual level cap, yeah we have the stat caps on armor... But if I can get buffed to use weapons and armor meant for those hugely higher in level than myself then the stat cap doesn't really work the way it's meant to.. It works to decide that PvP strats isn't about actual fighting, it's about learning every spell in the game, who can cast it.. And getting them to do so to match just that piece of EQ you need.. Why do we have graphics again? Sure this has a part in PvP, but in straight 1-1 combat other things should matter.. Like timing, stims.. Luck.. PERM SKILLS AND STATS.. Yeah. Make a level cap.. Increase it with level to keep it balanced. Since winning is mostly about EQ it wont make a difference, everyone will be on the same grounds, only difference now is that you might actually stand a fighting chance from doing missions even before you have 1k tokens collected at lvl 30.

[_____________Sikuvit]

I tried PvP for 1st time since 13.0 the only problem i noticed for the NT is if i went to fight a ranged weapon user i couldnt nuke unless i was in his firing range. I went 0-3 today. Imo the range decrease is whats really hurting the NT profession in Pvp mostly.

[________nyarlathotep]

give us back our range.
its how we survived with our low HP, lack of healing, and lousy armor buffs.

maybe we should all reroll as solitus or atrox NTs. maybe they wish to do away with the low HP nanomage race.

[siriuslea]

You people underestimate the over-equipping, its not just that the buff wears out...

Quote from Lanasia in overequipping thread:

That's laughable. The level 90 implants I refer to I placed on at level 40ish - guess what? I started this char after 13.0 patch. So yeah, I sure did take my implants right up there without any problems. Their treatment clinic fix did fix that bug, but it didn't really help... here's why:

It's easy:

- Max treatment
- Get +80 treatment buff
- Get +20 general treatment buff (my MA can self-cast this)
- Pop on the full Omni-Med suit (Using the parts that aren't broken as of now)
- Put on a low-level BioMech armor helm
- Turn on the surgery clinic
- Hop treatment implants upward until you hit your physical stat limit
- Raise the stat limit with implants that up the stats, and get stat buffs ( in the case of a Shining Treatment imp, Feline Grace and gen Agil buff are in order)
- Hop treatment up higher
- Finally fully equip your big bad set of fully-assembled high-level implants

I stopped at level 90 imps because I didn't feel like doing the excessive dancing and spending needed to get to level 110/125 at level 40ish (you have to hop the Bright, Shining, and Faded treatment imps, get big stat buffs, and imp the stats in a big crazy switch-a-roo that takes forever - at level 40 I mean)... and this was all done after the 13.0 patch. Overequiping in this manner hasn't been stopped, the method was just changed unfortunately.

You see how you get lvl 85 players with a ql 200 gun, you just keep uping the treatment with implants and the buffs that allow you to put them in.

Anarchy should just stop over-equipping in PvP