1) TIM can be killed by a team of level 60s.Originally posted by Warlock
S.T.M - Reported to be dropped by TIM in Foremans office. Drop isnt guaranteed, plus that dungeon is camped anyway, plus high level needed to even consider going there
Crystal - I've posted both on the Engineers board and Virrals boards regarding this and no one has reported to have found one.
2) I've found these in varying QLs on boss mobs. I've sold them to vendors because no one ever buys them on shop channel.
Thanks for the info - none of this changes that fact though that neither of these items is a 'tradeskill fix' for the Engineer (I dont know what FC were on when they put the reqs on the crystal!!!)Originally posted by PipSlag (aka PipBoy)
1) TIM can be killed by a team of level 60s.
2) I've found these in varying QLs on boss mobs. I've sold them to vendors because no one ever buys them on shop channel.
I posted the following to a thread similar to this in the Game Mechanics board, and realised it would also be relevant here.
Originally posted by Warlock
-snip irrelevant bits-
The problem with that is that some classes are more dependant than other classes, I mean when was the last time you saw _anyone_ ask an Engineers for a B&E, Chem/Pharm, Disarm, Pistol/Grenade, Energy or Ranged Int buff?
These buffs should really be the preserve of the Fixer (B&E and Disarm), Soldier (Pistol/Grenade, Energy and Ranged Int) and Doctor (Chem/Pharm) Nothing there that really has _anything_ to do with Engineering.
Dont you think I look like Geordie from Star Trek?
<-----------------------------------------------------------
Actually I look more of a cross between him and Picard don't I?
Hmm I have asked for, had and used all of those apart from "energy". What do you mean by that? I dont think engineers get ranged energy buffs do they? If they do I wasted alot of IPs when I was playing with shotgun/ranged energy weapons last week.Originally posted by Warlock
I mean when was the last time you saw _anyone_ ask an Engineers for a B&E, Chem/Pharm, Disarm, Pistol/Grenade, Energy or Ranged Int buff?
On the subject of self only buffs and engineer specific tools I have to say I hate both.
I would have very few self only buffs and class specific items if I designed a MMORPG. (Or level limits for that matter)
I just dont see why such requirements are needed and I will always argue against them.
In fact I would go further and not have any actual character classes at all - just skills and species - but its a bit late to suggest that now.
C.M.O.T. Raymote - Loyal (They pay better) OmniTek Trader
Omni-ECPCS
Rimmer: After intensive investigation, comma, of the markings on the alien pod, comma, it has become clear, comma, to me, comma, that we are dealing, comma, with a species of awesome intellect, colon.
Holly: Good. Perhaps they might be able to give you a hand with your punctuation.
Wow, someones used our disarm buff? Why?
As for pistol/grenade buff did this come from an agent in fp?
The reqs are plain silly, I guess at lvl200 with mochams I might be able to do it but not before.
pharma/chem is quite nice, saves a bit of ip on pharma though no one has ever asked me for it. Chem is nice for trimmers, and I guess now armour uses chem it's value has increases a lot. (though so few people have the ppes)
b&e, nice for fixers I guess.
The rest are nice little adds for the team. People quite like them if they have a little ncu free at the end of buffs. (by energy he meant increased energy damage (the reason many engies use vektors))
If you look at traders they have amazing buffs, and rightly so. They are the masters at helping people with their buffs. Problem is they are also better at trade skills and PvP and are more likely to find teams.
Engies are better as solo IMHO cos we can run away while the mob kills the bot. (sadly this is not a real option for xp post lvl100)
If you took just about any other profession out of the game, you would have to give some of there skills to another prof, if you took engies out there would be no need!
Amen to thatOriginally posted by Raymote
...
In fact I would go further and not have any actual character classes at all - just skills and species - but its a bit late to suggest that now.
Shadowrun? Eliminate classes? You forgot the magic users. Mages and Shamans, Adepts and the like. These classes have to be set down in stone from the start.
You CAN have a decker/mage, but you loose a lot in the attempt. Trying to be a mage/rigger is even harder, as that VCR takes such a hefty chunk out of your Essence.
Besides, last I heard Microsoft had the liscense on any new electronic versions of all of the old FASA properties, (except maybe Earthdawn,) so the only way you'd see that is if AC died an energy death and all the players mentioned SR on their way out the door.
Actually, there IS a Shadowrun Mux. Actually two. One set in Seatile, and the other in Detroit, (the site of the MUX servers.) Last time I was in there, it was less than a perfect world. Three streets by 4 seems to be about what I remember, and no virtual areas either, so no ascii-art forests. They did have apartments and vehicles though... Affordable ones.
Last edited by Sean Roach; Jul 18th, 2002 at 18:34:23.
two more pfennigs
OK, following in the pattern of cutting and pasting favorite parts from the online manual that support our opinions, here goes.I'll use color to highlight MY favorite parts. (sorry for the delay, boss seems to think I'm supposed to work at work!)
From the online manual about the Engineer.
From the online manual about the Trader.Overview
The Engineer is the master of construction, both by conventional means and through the use of nano programs. His robot is his weapon and protection, and an Engineer is easily recognisable by his ever-present automated friend. The Engineer prefers to dabble in man-made items, rather than focus on other skills such as combat. That does not mean, however, that an Engineer can't defend himself. Corner an Engineer and you will have quite a fight on your hands.
Strong fields
- Trade skills
- Nano formula skills
...
Key skills
- All trade skills except Psychology
- Matter Metamorphoses
- Matter Creation
- Time & Space
- Pistol
Nanos
- Armor buff
- Damage shield
- Robot heal
- Robot pet
- Ranged weapon buff
Whew! Long post already and I haven't even started! :/Overview
The Trader is an unorthodox profession, the name coming from both the affinity for trade skills and the more symbolic trading or swapping of skills, health and more. He is at home in a team, as his sacrifices through nano programs are very valuable to his companions. The Trader is a very complex profession, and a very social one.
Strong fields
- Trade skills
- Nano formula skills
...
Key skills
- Nano Energy Pool
- Shotgun
- Nano Execution Initiative
- Navigation
- All trade skills
- All nano skills
Nanos
...
- Initiative skill transfer
- Combat skill transfer
- Health transfer
- Armor transfer
- Trade skill buff
- Damage buff
- Root
- Nano transfer
- Pacify
- Charm
- Computer Literacy buff
So, comparing these side by side, what can we observe?
The engineer is the master of construction ... his robot is his weapon and protection, while the trader's name comes from his affinity for trade skills (PLUS the symbolic stuff of course
I emphasized "dabble" just to tease the traders.
Both professions are listed as having Trade Skills as "Strong Fields".
Both also have Trade Skills listed as "Key Skills". In addition, ENGINEERS have an exception given to their key skills in trades that Traders don't! And supporting that, the plusses and minuses of the IP costs between the two professions for the various tradeskills is roughly even except for that anomalous exception (in favor of Traders). All of which seems to pretty much exclude limiting Traders to 4 pts per level in the tradeskills, or otherwise gimping their abilities in the trades.
So, if we are to assume that the manual is reasonably accurate at describing the designer's "vision" of the professions (an enormous leap of faith in itself!
My contention therefore is that an Engineer being the "master of construction" does NOT give them the right to demand to be superior at tradeskills. They construct their robot pets. They are also good at tradeskills. Traders are also good at tradeskills but don't know the first thing about constructing pets.
As for Krabbus and others, I think our differences of opinion are rooted in your misconception when you say "I think of traders as trade in skills". According to Funcom, to the manual, to the description given at character generation, and as implemented in the IP costs and nano lines, Traders both do trade skills AND trade in skills as their main strengths. Frankly I think Funcom has wisely attempted (only partially successfully) to avoid the EQ trap of making ANY one class BEST at any one thing - preferring to have several professions share being best, ideally through different means or styles. They haven't done it perfectly, but the attempt is fairly apparent, and corrections to the imperfections should be NOT be in the form of simply changing which one is "best".
So, I'm going to put aside the debate over who gets to be uber at tradeskills. As far as I'm concerned, NO PROFESSION should be best at them, taking into account all reasonably available buffs and equipment. Arguing otherwise is class envy - pvp conflict at its worst.
So let's address the real complaint. It seems that because of their buff, self-buffed Traders can do tradeskills better than self-buffed Engineers of equal levels. Well, that certainly doesn't fit in with my desire to portray Engineers as the introvert loners vs. Traders as the extroverts does it?
Disclaimer: I do not play either a Trader OR an Engineer! As the tradeskills FINALLY seem to be getting some degree of developer luv beyond the extremely rudimentary and patchy implementation they have had until recently, I'm considering starting one or the other. My preference would be to not have to start an alt just to explore the tradeskills, but Funcom did not choose to implement that option. :/
Actually, magic use would be better considered as an expensive subrace modification since it's innate. So no, I didn't forgetOriginally posted by Sean Roach
Shadowrun? Eliminate classes? You forgot the magic users. Mages and Shamans, Adepts and the like. These classes have to be set down in stone from the start.
But anyway, since we have classes in AO, that's what we deal with. Any more ideas for giving engis some tradeskillish class definition? Like a way to do something that only engis are likely to use, but anyone can technically achieve? (a la trimmers, for instance)
K I am sick and tired of people saying that the engineers are all crying about the traders beeing best at tradeskills and nothing being done about it. Except traders screaming that the engineers should stay where they are. Now every post I have put up has shown a general misconception and I will state it here again.
quoted form the online manual :
The Engineer is the master of construction, both by conventional means and through the use of nano programs
also quoted form the online manual :
The Trader is an unorthodox profession, the name coming from both the affinity for trade skills and the more symbolic trading or swapping of skills, health and more
now look at the two quotes. An engineer is Master pf construction through both conventional means and nano programs. now "conventional means" hmmmmm sounds like OMG could it be TRADESKILLS ???????
Also just because somene has an Affinity for something does not mean they are the master of it. To further my point another quote form the online manual
"Technology and machines are a citizens best friend and there are no two ways about it. Why, with only a few basic parts and a twist of the wrist, you'll be the proud owner of a brand new custom-made weapon. Learn from me and I won't only show you how to equip your friends and customers with A-grade guns, swords and blunt objects, but I will also show you how to use your skills in the battlefield. The armour your friend, or even you, is wearing is too old and doesn't work effectively anymore? Not to worry! With technology you can increase the statistics of that armour and you'll be grinning from ear to ear. Hey, why not add a shield that damages an enemy hitting it? Sure, there you go. You just keep smiling my friend! That weapon is a little slow? Not to worry! Let's increase its damage output a bit shall we? And let's not forget the embodiment of your friend technology; the droid. Let me tell you, be an Engineer and you'll be the happiest grease monkey there ever was. Say, does that armour need fixing?"
fixing and upgrading things takes alot of tradeskills and knolledge in them.
"Roll up, roll up! You won't find a better profession than the Trader! Discounts, wares and credits galore. I tell no lie! I will even give you my no questions asked, 100 percent, money-back guarantee, and you can't beat that. Are you considering joining the trading business? Great choice. As a Trader you'll have access to materials and wares all across Rubi-Ka at the very best prices. That Soldier needs an implant created? Buy cheap, sell high. That Fixer needs a gun made? Buy cheap, sell high. That Nano Technician needs a nano crystal? Hehe, you've got it; buy cheap, sell high. The market is your oyster. But say, you look like you have an itchy trigger finger. No problem. Give us a gun and we'll use it alright, but let us use our nano programs and I'll take some of an enemy's skills and give them back to me. And I won't even charge them for it! He-he. Hey, I'll even swap minds with an enemy and control them that way. For no added cost, I'll increase the armor and skills of a friend through the sacrifice of my own skills. Hey, that's what we do; make transactions. So, how about it then? Become a Trader and be your own one-person shopping complex. Become one in 5 minutes and I'll even include this set of nano-sharpened Bronto Burger knives!"
hmmmm nothign ever mentioned about creating things??? The only impression I get form this is that a trader is just that a person who trades items for profit form the person who makes them to the person who needs them.
AND to further my point I will include the definition of a trader and engineer form websters online dictionary.I will also include the definitions of affinity and master to clear any other misconceptions.
Engineer
Main Entry: 1en·gi·neer
Pronunciation: "en-j&-'nir
Function: noun
Etymology: alter. of earlier enginer, from Middle English, alteration of enginour, from Middle French engigneur, from Old French engignier to contrive, from engin
Date: 14th century
1 : a member of a military group devoted to engineering work
2 obsolete : a crafty schemer : PLOTTER
3 a : a designer or builder of engines b : a person who is trained in or follows as a profession a branch of engineering c : a person who carries through an enterprise by skillful or artful contrivance
4 : a person who runs or supervises an engine or an apparatus
Trader
Main Entry: trad·er
Pronunciation: 'trA-d&r
Function: noun
Date: 1585
1 : a person whose business is buying and selling or barter: as a : MERCHANT b : a person who buys and sells (as stocks or commodities futures) in search of short-term profits
2 : a ship engaged in the coastal or foreign trade
Master
Main Entry: 1mas·ter
Pronunciation: 'mas-t&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English magister & Old French maistre, both from Latin magister; akin to Latin magnus large -- more at MUCH
Date: before 12th century
1 a (1) : a male teacher (2) : a person holding an academic degree higher than a bachelor's but lower than a doctor's b often capitalized : a revered religious leader c : a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices d (1) : an artist, performer, or player of consummate skill (2) : a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal
2 a : one having authority over another : RULER, GOVERNOR b : one that conquers or masters : VICTOR, SUPERIOR <in this young, obscure challenger the champion found his master> c : a person licensed to command a merchant ship d (1) : one having control (2) : an owner especially of a slave or animal e : the employer especially of a servant f (1) dialect : HUSBAND (2) : the male head of a household
3 a (1) archaic : MR. (2) : a youth or boy too young to be called mister -- used as a title b : the eldest son of a Scottish viscount or baron
4 a : a presiding officer in an institution or society (as a college) b : any of several officers of court appointed to assist (as by hearing and reporting) a judge
5 a : a master mechanism or device b : an original from which copies can be made; especially : a master phonograph record or magnetic tape
Affinity
Main Entry: af·fin·i·ty
Pronunciation: &-'fi-n&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Middle English affinite, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French afinité, from Latin affinitas, from affinis bordering on, related by marriage, from ad- + finis end, border
Date: 14th century
1 : relationship by marriage
2 a : sympathy marked by community of interest : KINSHIP b (1) : an attraction to or liking for something <people with an affinity to darkness -- Mark Twain> <pork and fennel have a natural affinity for each other -- Abby Mandel> (2) : an attractive force between substances or particles that causes them to enter into and remain in chemical combination c : a person especially of the opposite sex having a particular attraction for one
3 a : likeness based on relationship or causal connection <found an affinity between the teller of a tale and the craftsman -- Mary McCarthy> <this investigation, with affinities to a case history, a psychoanalysis, a detective story -- Oliver Sacks> b : a relation between biological groups involving resemblance in structural plan and indicating a common origin
so it seems very strange to me that traders are performing what an engineer should be doing.
So the one burning question is
Why has funcom made the engineer profession which should be the creaters of items and handed us the biggest nerf of all by making the traders the absolute best in tradeskills ?
and the most silent nerf I have ever seen to date!
Now I hate a Nerfing, and I am not calling for the trader profession to be nerfed but what I am calling for is that the engineer profession be put where it should have been and that is as master builders.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.anarchy-online.com/charac...me/plasmatorch
still me main and will always be my main unless this nerfing of the engineer profession keeps up.
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the cutting torch couldn't cut it
the MIG well he was inert
but the plasmatorch was just right.
A point the engies keep forgetting, and needs to be pounded into their skulls (with a large hammer). They are NOT Traders. Traders are also not the only ones who can use tradeskills, they are just the best at them. This is how the description of a Trader specifies it.
I suggest that everybody go back and read what the strengths and weakness's for each class is. And then look to see if your trying to do something with your class your not truly strong at.
Engies are good bot makers, and use them to fight with. Traders are HORRIBLE at all combat, but if it wasn't for shotties, they wouldn't be able to solo anything.
If the Engies are blessed with better tradeskill abilities, then the traders need bots. Plain and simple. You want something, then give something. Elsewise, ungimp your engie by removing all combat skills and redirect them into tradeskills. Why do you need heavy combat skills with a bot around?
I'm a Trader, and I have an Alt Engie. My Trader is geared mostly for tradeskills, my engie has weak weapons and good bot skills. The engie isn't heavy into tradeskills.
Shoot, you ever wonder why fixers can't make their own Chem Maussers? And tend to ask traders, THEN engies for one?
The fact that alot of traders don't do tradeskills alot is a testament to what we have to go through to survive. I manage to ballance everything. I also don't PVP, cause I know I'd get my butt waxed even by a PC 10-15 lvl's below me.
As it is, I don't understand why engies want to be traders. If they haven't seen the broken tradeskills, they should take a better look.
It ain't over till the fat lady falls on you.
Plasma, did you bump your head? In this game, we don't use Websters definitions for the classes. Go read the class definitions then come back when your ready.
Engies are not masters of TRADESKILLS. This may be in reference to bots, which are not tradeskill items.
Last edited by Heavypacker; Jul 19th, 2002 at 08:21:33.
It ain't over till the fat lady falls on you.
heavypacker maybe you are blind but I also posted the class definitions also quoting websters was just to drive my point home and as for the point I was making you missed it entirelyOriginally posted by Heavypacker
Plasma, did you bump your head? In this game, we don't use Websters definitions for the classes. Go read the class definitions then come back when your ready.
and as far as the bot goes teh reason why a trader does nto have a bot is because they don't spend years in college studing the TRADESKILLS used to make one. oh yes and as far as the bots not being tradeskill items it also states in the class dfinition that they are the masters of construction using nano programs.
Last edited by PlasmaTorch; Jul 19th, 2002 at 08:27:37.
And as for your claiming you don't see anything in the traders definition about 'creating', did you MISS the part about the soldier needing an implant CREATED? And the Fixers gun being made?
Use some Visene.
It ain't over till the fat lady falls on you.
appearantly you missed the "buy low sell high" right after thatOriginally posted by Heavypacker
And as for your claiming you don't see anything in the traders definition about 'creating', did you MISS the part about the soldier needing an implant CREATED? And the Fixers gun being made?
Use some Visene.
Last edited by PlasmaTorch; Jul 19th, 2002 at 08:38:58.
And you missed the inferrence. Buy the parts low, sell the item high.Originally posted by PlasmaTorch
appearantly you missed the "buy low sell high right after that"
Go back to school and learn to interpret meanings.
It ain't over till the fat lady falls on you.
and just what is the meaning you are getting form it becasue the meaning that I am getting is the one that it is meant to beOriginally posted by Heavypacker
And you missed the inferrence. Buy the parts low, sell the item high.
Go back to school and learn to interpret meanings.
which is buy the parts at a low cost to sell them to the creater for a profit. and then sell the item to the person who needs it at even higher profit after it has been gotten from the person who created it.
And since you bring it up a trader can own pvp if the invest in the nano's like their porfession.so it leaves one question unanswered
Whay are traders trying to be engineers ??????
heavy packer you seem to have a talent at insulting yourself please try again
Last edited by PlasmaTorch; Jul 19th, 2002 at 08:41:10.
Your weak interpretive skills are showing.
Putting items (creating) together is a tradeskill. Involving someone ELSE for creation raises the cost of the items. This negates the statement 'buy low sell high', since you now have a middle man getting involved, and who may charge a 'fee' for said creation.
Traders also can buff their tradeskills to do better. BUT, they can also buff others! You need higher skill for making an item engie, ask a trader for a buff, but don't expect them to not charge or ask for tips. (We are traders after all
Engies are almost as good at tradeskills as Traders. If you want to be best, then your bot will be nerfed. Why would you need one?
The point being, both Engies and Traders are equal at tradeskills, but Traders can buff them to become better. This is the sore spot for the Engies. Engies can build bots to fight for them while Traders have to slug it out themselves. Take an Engies bot away and what do you have? A TRADER! Though a weaker one, thats what your stuck with.
If you wanted to be able to do Trader stuff, then roll a Trader. You took an Engie cause you get a bot and can make things. If Engies were as good as Traders at TS's, who'd want to BE a trader?
Traders have some seriously messed up nano lines, (most usefull offensive ones <ransack/deprive/plunder> are useless against mobs) and are not designed for combat. If you see a Trader Tank, he's got some weak tradeskills.
In the end analysis, Engies got what they'll get, and Traders got theirs. Screaming for nerf's or improvements on either class is uncalled for, if it intrudes on the others strenghts.
It ain't over till the fat lady falls on you.
k well then if you take our bots away then we get all the nano's that traders use to (hold on here this will be a shocker for you) "TRADE" skills, nano, Armor, oh and your wrangles tooOriginally posted by Heavypacker
Your weak interpretive skills are showing.
Putting items (creating) together is a tradeskill. Involving someone ELSE for creation raises the cost of the items. This negates the statement 'buy low sell high', since you now have a middle man getting involved, and who may charge a 'fee' for said creation.
Traders also can buff their tradeskills to do better. BUT, they can also buff others! You need higher skill for making an item engie, ask a trader for a buff, but don't expect them to not charge or ask for tips. (We are traders after all
Engies are almost as good at tradeskills as Traders. If you want to be best, then your bot will be nerfed. Why would you need one?
The point being, both Engies and Traders are equal at tradeskills, but Traders can buff them to become better. This is the sore spot for the Engies. Engies can build bots to fight for them while Traders have to slug it out themselves. Take an Engies bot away and what do you have? A TRADER! Though a weaker one, thats what your stuck with.
If you wanted to be able to do Trader stuff, then roll a Trader. You took an Engie cause you get a bot and can make things. If Engies were as good as Traders at TS's, who'd want to BE a trader?
Traders have some seriously messed up nano lines, (most usefull offensive ones <ransack/deprive/plunder> are useless against mobs) and are not designed for combat. If you see a Trader Tank, he's got some weak tradeskills.
In the end analysis, Engies got what they'll get, and Traders got theirs. Screaming for nerf's or improvements on either class is uncalled for, if it intrudes on the others strenghts.
so again I ask
Why are traders trying to be engineers ?????
and for my interpriting skills I happend to be a sophmore engineering student in a major university. soi my inteerpreting skills are up to par infact I just had a test that said that they were in the top 5% of the nation for interpritation.
another question
Is asking to be masters of creation infringing on the traders strength of trading skills,nano,ect ect????
answer = NO
hmmm so like I said before heavypacker you realy have a talent for insulting yourself PLEASE TRY AGAIN.
Last edited by PlasmaTorch; Jul 19th, 2002 at 09:17:13.
Unfortunately, your insulting yourself.Originally posted by PlasmaTorch
k well then if you take our bots away then we get all the nano's that traders use to (hold on here this will be a shocker for you) "TRADE" skills, nano, Armor, oh and your wrangles too
so again I ask
Why are traders trying to be engineers ?????
and for my interpriting skills I happend to be a sophmore engineering student in a major university. soi my inteerpreting skills are up to par infact I just had a test that said that they were in the top 5% of the nation for interpritation.
hmmm so like I said before heavypacker you realy have a talent for insulting yourself PLEASE TRY AGAIN.
1) Earth standards/definitions are irrelevant for Rubi-Ka. Take the blinders off.
2) Engies are trying to be Traders, not the reverse.
3) Engies don't have key nano skill, so you cant have the Traders nano, buffs, wrangles (trader specific item).
4) Trader armor? (I haven't seen any, maybe you could give me some)
5) Your educational lvl does not give you interpretational skills, as you have proven.
6) Since your bot is your weapon and protection, redistribute your combat skills to tradeskills, as you shouldn't need them.
I've already shot holes in your Trader wanabe Engie argument. Find another tact.
Also, your species defines how much IP is needed for TS's. So if your an Atrox Engie, you got what you deserve.
It ain't over till the fat lady falls on you.
well heavy packer it seems you need glasses and sicen you can't tell someone who is stupid, stupid since they think they are the smartest person. I will leave you in your own little diluded world. heavypacker since you can't see anything liek it is supposed to be ans sorry you can't pvp or have decent attack skills since your shotgun is is green and an engineers pistol is light blue. hmm who is meant to fight? so since you just can't get teh point that question is meant for other not you
oh and antoehr thing if you stopped trying to be an engineer and tried to be a trader and use you nano's then maybe you could be decent in combat
and I also realy like how you skipped the entire part about what a trader should be doing from your quote. nice touch
Last edited by PlasmaTorch; Jul 19th, 2002 at 09:34:17.
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