Tradeskills: Engineers Vs. Traders

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Raymote
You are saying Engineers should specifically be the best at tradeskills, alone and ahead.

I picked trader because they were equal best at tradeskills overall, if i decide to specialize in weapon smithing why should I have to get someone else to assemble the weapon smithing stages of my weapons?

I don't have a problem with engineers getting tradeskills buffs but why make them self only?

Engineer+Trader buffs = an engineer *OR* trader with uber tradeskills.

Please reread my posts, I have never said that Engineers should be the best at tradeskills, alone and ahead. I have said Engineers should be the best when a Trader is helping them with their buffs, and not equal as they are today.

If the Engineers are a little better when the Traders help them will also Traders ask them for a little help, and not only Engineers begging for their buffs all the time. It's an roleplaying game, and the players should interact with each other and not do everything alone as traders can do today.

[BGumble]

What you need to remember is the origin of the 'Traders heal better than Doctors' post which (despite being factually wrong for 80% of levels when all things were included) was a comparison between two classes and ended up with Funcom not taking considered action but instead rushing through a nerf (despite lots of "Oh we dont want a nerf we just want to be better" statements).

Any comparison of profession where A is described as better then B is a risky operation. So far I havent seen any posts from Engineers really defining what they want to be able to do and are currently unable to do. I've seen quite a few moaning about not being best though.

[Turin]

Originally posted by Noer



Its pretty common that class fixes are done through rare items.

That doesnt make it right though.

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by BGumble
What you need to remember is the origin of the 'Traders heal better than Doctors' post which (despite being factually wrong for 80% of levels when all things were included) was a comparison between two classes and ended up with Funcom not taking considered action but instead rushing through a nerf (despite lots of "Oh we dont want a nerf we just want to be better" statements).

Any comparison of profession where A is described as better then B is a risky operation. So far I havent seen any posts from Engineers really defining what they want to be able to do and are currently unable to do. I've seen quite a few moaning about not being best though.

My maineasons is to make the trader and engineer help each other out and will perhaps make the game more social - one have the buffs and the other have a little better skills. It's a roleplaying game, and we should be dependent on each other, and not make one class be independent as traders are today regarding to tradeskills. Traders will still be superior, but whenever the trader helps the engineer will he/she have a slighter better skills.

[_______________Vydas]

Look at this from FC's perspective:

Class E can do all that it wants in tradeskills
Class E claims it should be best at tradeskills
Class E is miffed that Class T gets tradeskill buffs, so therefore Class E would like some buffs of its own

However, since Class E can really do all that it wants in tradeskills, the problem is not one that can be addressed via adding more buffs, because the problem is not that Class E can't do some tradeskill related activity. Therefore, no, we will not go through the effort of creating new nanos that don't address the problem.

The problem is, simply, that Class E 'defines' itself as being best at tradeskills and that is not now true. The logical solution, then, is not to improve Class E, since they can already make what they want to make, the logical solution is to nerf traders.

If you can't see that that is EXACTLY what you are asking for, you are not being honest with yourself or anyone else.

[_____________Raymote]

I am sorry Krabbus and Warlock but your argument is largely based on "the grass is greener".

You say things like "traders have so much going for them".
While I agree I also think engineers do too. Arguing about which class is currently better over all is a waste of time..

Originally posted by Krabbus
My maineasons is to make the trader and engineer help each other out and will perhaps make the game more social - one have the buffs and the other have a little better skills. It's a roleplaying game, and we should be dependent on each other, and not make one class be independent as traders are today regarding to tradeskills. Traders will still be superior, but whenever the trader helps the engineer will he/she have a slighter better skills.

That’s all well and good but what you are proposing (self only tradeskill buffs for engineers) DOES make engineers the "Best" at tradeskills.

As I said before, whatever you do you should include all the buffs you can get from other classes, whether equipping armour or guns or making things when you decide how "good" you are at it.

If engineers get their own self buffs + the trader buffs then they become "better" than the trader at tradeskills, and I don’t think that is the way it is intended. (It certainly wasn’t how I saw it when I started my trader)

I firmly believe that at the moment traders and engineers are equal in tradeskills. If engineers get their own tradeskills buffs (That’s a big IF) why should it be self only?

[____________Otakette]

I think the biggest problem is a matter of perception.

The engineers think they should be best at building something because they're grease monkies and that's "what they do" and hey, the prof title's even in the skill names!

Traders think they should be best because these are TRADEskills and they, after all, are tradesmen/women who know a trade.

However, if you look at real life, you find that it's not engineers doing the mass production. They do all the bleeding edge R&D type stuff. They find ways to modify and maintain old equipment. Once they make a design, it goes to people who know the individual trades for mass production. The problem, of course, is how to reflect a situation like that in AO.

Well here's an idea. Rather then make engi's have more skill potential, make them have more potential uses for the skill they have. Engi's should be king of modifications and protoypes. The MRRs are a case in point. Something (or preferably several somethings) along those lines that's engi-specific, or at least engi-specific at the higher levels, would be the best route. This infringes on nobody and requires no comparrissons to anyone else that could lead to unwanted nerfs.

A long while back FC had tossed around the idea of giving Engi's the ability to reverse-engineer a weapon. Well, the ability to remove a cluster from an implant is in game, so how about the ability to remove parts from a weapon? A good bit different, but it's an idea.

More things like MRRs for engis to modify armor and weapons. How about being able to add a computer guided targeting mechanism to rifles that gives them a small bonus to aimed shot? See where I'm going here? The tools to do these can be engi-specific.

Best of all, it requires no new nanos, no new buffs, no change to anyone's skills and no special circumstances. All you need is a good set of tools. And honestly, as an engi I feel naked without a few good tools

"You want a cheap mass-made item? Don't waste my time child I've got more important things to do then make a mere toy. Oh, you want to customize the performance on you new assault rifle? Well you came to the right place."

[Maximilian]

/me bows to Otakette. There finally somebody had some nice idea. Not that they are easy to implement, but maybe it shows a direction out of the dilemma.

Let's put all the pride and (extreme) prejudice aside for a moment. As nice as some of the ideas presented so far are, most of them are unrealistic up to unfair:

- Buffs for Engis (however they would look like): Cannot be, because it would imbalance the exsting trade skill framework. As I see it, 'trade' skills with buffs and items are targeted against the 1000 border, maybe a bit higher. For most ql200 items you need skills in this range. So, if the Engis would get a serious buff line, there would be immedeately cooperations of Engis and Traders that would reach that border to early, earlier than today, at least.
If buffs would come, they most probabely would/should not stack with the trader ones (only resort I see - personal view)

- New items: If they come, same argumentation as above. Either they are ultra rare to not get imbalance or there boni are neglectable (Giraldi Crystal).

- Downgrade of traders: I do not comment on that. Out of many reasons not a favorable solution.

So, it seems most reasonable to give the Engis a new toy to play with. BUT, keep in mind:

- Profession specific toys don't improve player interaction, and

- they are poison in a skill based system

So it has to be something, that is not covered by the actual skill system, as we have learned, that Traders can excel there without any major problems.

1) Reverse weapon engineering - why not, what would that be good for, remains the question. FC won't let us make better versions of good weapons - imbalance alert. Still wondering about the armor construction. All power players are equipped with premium ql200 NCU buffing armor by now - the casual player won't most probabely ever see a ql200 brest piece .

Anyway - good food for thought.

So long,

Vermeer

[____________Otakette]

Thank you Max

Perhaps I wasn't clear on the engi-only tools. Let's look at it like this: A screwdriver is a simple tool. Everyone knows how to use a screwdriver. Now hand somebody something more advanced like micro-tools. Most people don't know how to use those properly. Hence, some engi-only advanced tools.

Now, this doesn't hurt player interaction. In fact, it encourages it to an extent. If anyone can use a tool (like a screwdriver) then you need look no farther then yourself to do something with it. If you want to do something that requires more in-depth knowledge, you need to seek out someone with said knowledge. Like an Engi. And they can do it for you.

The problem with leaving the tools open to anyone regardless of proffession is that is adds nothing to the proffession you intend to help (engis).

Or to look at it from a more in-game perspective: tools now are like the general nanos. Anyone with the skill can use them. Yet each prof has specific nanos only they can use that helps to define them and give them a role in the community. Engi's focus isn't on nanos, but rather gadgets. So at least some of the Engi's definition should come from there.

And for the reverse-engineering, I do realize that it would not be easy to implement. And as for use, what if you could use that ability to remove a single part and then replace it with a similar one of different type? Example: Use the tools to take off the barrel of a gun, making it into an "Unfinished soandso" (like from the weapon recepticals) then add on a longer barrel. Now you have a "modified soandso" with longer range, but slower rate of fire or slightly higher skill reqs. See what I mean? It's like the ranged equivalent of the MRRs used on melee weapons.

Also recall the mention of maybe making only higher QL versions of the tools engi-only. So the low ones are akin to the general skill expertise nanos, but the high ones are prof-specific like our pistol buffs. Yet anyone can benefit from the end product (be it weapon or buff).

And the entire crux of the Engi's problem as it stands today is that there seems to be nothing meaningful they can offer that someone else doesn't do better. Engis just want something to call thier own. Something unique to them. Or at least something they can do better then anyone else. And from the prof description given in the manual, I think FC intended for Engis to be the best at modifying gear. But if the tools to do so aren't engi-specific, that won't be the case.

I agree with you Max, that ideally you would need nothing to be prof specific and each prof's natural strengths would enable them to out-perform the others in thier area of expertise (trimmers are a good example of this at work). But the way the skills are setup, it's not possible in this case. There are no skills to directly reflect the Engi's advanced schooling in theory and application. Only thier ability to actually produce is presented in the skills. So the learning must be represented elsewhere. Engi-only tools are one option. There are others. I just think this one seems the best fit for a "grease monkey" I could be wrong, of course, but that's my 2 creds

[____________Otakette]

Looking back through the thread, I should probably specify that I don't mean for the tools or whatever other solution to increase engi tradeskills in anyway. No buffing here. That's Trader's domain, leave 'em be. We are Engis. We know enough about our skills to find other applications. Our bot is one of these (in theory), but it is still only one.

Whatever solution is used, I think it should provide a new outlet for tradeskills that is engi-specific. Tools, nanos, armor, whatever, I don't really care. But it's the engi's realm of expertise to modify things. Just read the description. Engi's are supposed to make the best gear by modifying and optimizing it. A custom-made gun? Yup, notice the custom part. As in, not a standard formula or kit. So I say give FC more ideas on how to go about making that happen

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going back to my little workshop

[coldwarkid]

How about something similar to the hacking tool as an eng. only device. Apply it to an item (weapon, armour etc.) to provide you with a "base" part, which can then be finished in a number of different ways, depending on the item. Obviously, the finished product is a custom version of the original.

It would make sense to have one such tool for each item type - ie. a weaponsmithing tool, an armoursmithing tool etc. Obvious changes in these cases are to change the damage type or AC types that the item has.

Cheers,

~R~

[Destractor]

How about having new items created using a screwdriver, and having an engie only improved screwdriver (sonic screwdriver) that would create items with 50% of the skills required.

This would make the specific items available for others to make, they'd just need more skills.

This would only be for certain items that engies should be better at making than traders.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Raymote
I am sorry Krabbus and Warlock but your argument is largely based on "the grass is greener".

You say things like "traders have so much going for them".
While I agree I also think engineers do too.

Ok maybe we need to approach this from a different angle?

I'm guessing you have never played an Engineer (nothing wrong with that since I have never played a Trader), so let me ask you this.

When you saw Engineer during character creation what did the description lead you to believe that profession would be like/was capable of? and what is it you feel the Engineers have going for them?

This isnt supposed to sound sarcastic (I know my posts are famous for it) I'm genuinely interested to know what non-Engineers actually think we do, and what we are good at.

[__________CodeMonkey]

What about the ability for an engi to customize his bot?

The kits would be built using tradeskills and would include things like:

Bot Custom Kit #1 ("blazing gunz" combat mod) - turns the bot's attack to a low damage, fast shooting projectile attack, reduces AC,HP,and evades

Bot Custom Kit #2 ("plasma howitzer" combat mod) - turns the bot's attack to a high damage, slow shooting ranged energy attack, reduces AC, HP, and evades

Bot Custom Kit #3 (stealth mod) - projects a cloaking field over the engineer and the bot increasing conceal, reduces bot attack damage and attack speed

Bot Custom Kit #4 ("festering plague" damage mod) - changes the bot's damage type to disease/poison

Bot Custom Kit #5 ("Mr. Tac-nuke" damage mod) - changes the bot's damage type to radiation

Bot Custom Kit #6 (workshop helper model type A "Mr. Wizard") - increases the engineer's chemistry, pharmatech and quantum FT, bot's damage is reduced to 0

Bot Custom Kit #7 (workshop helper model type B "Grease Monkey") - increases the engineer's mech. engr. ,elec. engr and weapon smithing, bot's damage reduced to 0

#6 and #7 deals specifically with the tradeskill issue, while the other kits would help improve the engineer's lot in PvP and PvM. Implementing custom bots would requirer a lot of work on funcom's part and will take a long time to implement.

A faster solution to trade skills would be:

1.Give engineers a nano line that buffs tutoring. +40, +150, +300

and

2. The current tutoring devices can be modified into an "advanced" version that only engineers can use. The advanced version would boost a skill 3 times what a normal device can do per QL. So a ql200 advanced tutoring device would raise a skill by +150.

[Sean-Roach]

Here's an idea that'd fit the description. Upgrade/degrade.

Two new items, available in the shops and on mobs, but most useful if it's readily available in the shops. The first should be something like "Targeting and Recoil Assist Module", and should basically drop the QL of the gun its added to by some set amount. Maybe changing the gun to the QL of the module. The requirement being that the module must have a lower QL than the gun. The second item should do the opposite. perhaps "weapon utility upgrade", boosting the QL of a gun by 5 QL, and the module has to be within 10 QL of the gun, and have the higher QL.

The advantage of these two items would be twofold. If a player finds a weapon that he can't use, but could if it weren't at that level, he can have an engineer reduce its QL to something he can handle. More importantly, if a player develops a particular liking for a specific weapon, he doesn't have to spend hours or days looking for one like it, that's affordable, to upgrade to when he levels. Rather, he can have the engineer raise its QL to something more useful to his new level.

Actually, there should be a whole line of such upgrades/degrades. Specific modules for each of the weapon, and tool, classes. Upgrade that old shotgun using a ranged upgrade kit. Degrade that newly discovered longsword with a melee degrade kit. Modify that armor to better suit the player. Adjust that bio-communicator, or surgery clinic, with an AI interface aftermarket kit.

All of these should use tradeskills to do, and preferably be engineer only.

Of course, I'd still rather strip a gun down for parts and it's recipe, and build something else with the components.




Another idea would be to make weapons more like jewelry. Treat barrels and blades like the gems on rings. Suddenly a minigrinner becomes a minigrinner with extra long composite barrel. Someone suggested something similar earlier in the thread. Give each component part an effector to the basic capacities of the weapon. Damage output modifier, skill needed modifier, rate of fire modifier, reload modifier, ammo capacity modifier, ammo-type modifier. Thus an engineer could make a "rather useless" burst six-shooter, by using a basic pistol frame, and adding the fastest chamber component. This machine revolver would probably be about as effective as a grenade launcher. Shoot...reload...shoot...reload...shoot... Another engineer might produce a pretty decent trench-broom by taking that same pistol frame, adding the same fast chamber component, but also adding a medium barrel and ammo-capacity upgrade.

This would work real well with the idea of de-compiling a gun, but would also work even if you couldn't dissassemble items. Just assume you loose the old component when you upgrade to the new.

[Krabbus]

There have been a lot of new ideas here, and they sound good.
The important thing here is to make the different class dependent on other classes, as it are today are we engineers dependent of traders, but not the other way around. Traders and Engineers are supposed to work together, so the question is how we can make that, one solution was the additional buffline for engineers, but another solution is to give engineers some tools that can modify existing utilities that the traders have made.

A lot of good ideas, but I hope both the people playing Traders and Engineers agree that we have to be more dependent on each other, and not like it is today. It's a roleplaying game and we have to interact with each other.

I know that you can modify the Tank Armor, but it's illegal, but it's "only" for fixers. You look at Engineers and Tradres at the same thing, but we aren't, traders are independent and engineers not... Engineers really need something that makes people dependent on them too...

Hehe, I'm just curious, you tradres are really afraid that engineers could be better in tradeskills if they get a own selfonly buffline (but only together with tradersbuff). But look at this way, if they moved traders buffline over to the engineers and gave traders the small buffline that engineers should have. This way would you be the master of creation, but only when you could get the buffs from the engineers. Is it really this you want? You are all (traders) screaming out that this will make the engineers superior...

[____________Intrepid]

Originally posted by Raymote
Where I come from (in RL) someone who learns a trade (or is a tradesman) is someone who has learned a particular skill such as plumbing, architect or (yes) engineering.

umm wrong.

*edit* rest of post deleted due to trolling at this persons stupidity.

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Raymote
I firmly believe that at the moment traders and engineers are equal in tradeskills. If engineers get their own tradeskills buffs (That’s a big IF) why should it be self only?

I wanted it to be selfonly to make the engineering class something special, but if it isn't selfonly will the interact between the traders and engineering profession be intact, so it could be like that too, but it has to stack...

This way would this go both ways, the engineer can buff the trader and trader buff the engineer.

What do you think about this, give engineers a small buffline that stack with traders buff and can be used at all professions. This way would both traders and engineers work more closely.


btw, why can you only tutor one skill at the time? Why can't it lock the current skills you tutor instead of the tutoring skill, so u can tutor two skills you need in the same process (impossible to use tutoringdevices under nanocrystal creation, tutoringdevices are only good for jewellery, nanoprogramming and weaponssmith)

[Destractor]

One of the most used trade skills at the moment is jewelery making. This doesn't help people but gives you good money.

This is the type of thing traders should be best at, and they are. They can make better quaility rings earlier than engies, and once made they can sell them in their store for a considerable amount more than normal.

Now this irritates me a little, as I can't make as much as a trader, but I guess this is how things should be.

Engies should be making things to help people, where as traders should be making things to make a profit. This should be reflected in the trade skills.

(I am not saying engies should not be able to make a profit out of helping people)

[_____________Raymote]

Originally posted by Intrepid


umm wrong.

*edit* rest of post deleted due to trolling at this persons stupidity.

I love the way people who disagree by saying someone is stupid or an idiot make themselves look as stupid or worse on forums, LOL.
(Yes I can see the irony in that statement. )

I wouldnt have a problem with the buffs getting moved over to engis and the trader getting the new smaller buffs, although I dont really see the point - it just doesnt gain anything.

Krabbus: Yep your suggestion of a new buff line for engis that ISNT self only is what I am saying, I think if anything needs changing with buffs then add that.

After reading the engi forums and doing a little research I do think engineers would gain alot more with an IP restructure - make a variety of their other skills alot cheaper so they have more IP to play with. That would be of far more benifit to engis overall than a new buffline. (Bearing in mind the new buffline wouldnt be huge even at the highest levels - and you would probably still be tracking down traders to wrangle you to cast it.)