Tradeskills: Engineers Vs. Traders

[Sallust]

Actually been debating the tradeskill thing with many of my guild members lately. Traders being good at Tradeskills makes sense and I've no problem with most of the Trader tradeskill buffs, in fact I don't really have a problem with all of them with a couple of exceptions.

This is a team game and tradeskills should also be a team process. Here is my vision (I urge FC to have a vision again) of how they should be:

Traders: Generally the best at tradeskills and best for multi-trade skill steps.

Doctors: Ptech & Chemistry specialists (need a buff for it right now)

Engineers: Best at engineering (duh), not bad at the others.

Nano-technicians: Best at Nano-programming (Not that MPs should be bad at it, we are a nanocaster. But not the ruler of it)

A few fix ideas:

Take away Philosopher's stone and replace it with an engineering skill buff. Give the doctors a Ptech & Chemistry buff in their place. Looking at the name of Philosopher's stone I constantly mistook it for a MP buff by name anyways for a couple months. Why aren't engineers the best at engineering anyways? I've suggested an engineer quest before for some engineering item that massively boosts those 3 tradeskills (and it would be good for OEing trimmers as well).

Leave Traders alone, they're fine as is (Tradeskill wise at least)

Give NTs a better high-end NP buff or trade out the MP's NP buff for something of great use to them.

Give the MPs some of their "Philosopher" stuff, whatever that may be.

In the end several professions would have their own line of tradeskill to be the master at and tradeskills would finally become a team process for all to partake in. All we'd then need is some more useful things to actually use tradeskills on....

[Krabbus]

I will never understand the logic in tradeskills between engineers and traders, even the designers don't understand this...

But I have seen some things here, they have introduced the PPPE for Armor Creation after this thread was started. Remember also that the description of the Engineer in the Online Manual said the Engineer is best at modifing armor (and maybe create it?). And what skill is needed to make armor? yeah, it's chemistry and mechanical engineering. As crazy it sound, armor creation needs chemistry, and engineers is the only profession that can buff chemistry (except agents, but it's 12 points less)

FC is also introducing new buffing utilities for engineers, I'm very happy about that, but how hard should it be to get this? Right now we have to gather a team or two to kill "The One" and his followers over and over again, and just pray it drops the body armor. And what about all the other engineering buffing tools (in the DB) that hasen't been seen at all! Speaking of the NCU, Spider grenade thingy etc etc. When will we see this? Is it even in game?

All I'm asking for is a minor buffline like traders, +20, +40, +80 and selfonly to make sure traders don't say nerf right away. In my eyes I will never understand why traders is better at making things better than engineers, the logic here is way out my knowledge! The descriptions in Online Manual should be the guidlines for each of the professions, but this is far from true... but I'm not going to do this discussion all over again.


All I want is a comment from the game designer, and what Engineers are supposed to do!!! Traders can du everything by theirself, don't need help from anyone. I know that because I can make QL200 NanoPrograms at level 160 with only QL125 imps and Meastroes. Engineers have to beg for everything!



Too bad Cosmik is gone, since he promised to make the game designers have a look at this, hmm...

[Krabbus]

and traders best at building towers? What is Engineers really, shouldn't they be good at engineering?

This is absolute crazy, I really don't understand the logic here, can anyone please explain me this?

[ethernal3]

Yes, traders are by far the best at building towers, because one of their primary skills required for it is Computer Literacy, and what do you know, they have a +280 buff. They are the only profession able to build ql 200 towers, everyone else is forced to use ql 200's, unless they are built (by traders, since engies suck at tradeskills, remember) to ql 215 or 220, which everyone else can build too.

And here. I don't mean to make big text and whatnot but..

Stop using "Trade"r and "Trade"skills as an excuse. You cannot interchange "Trader" for "Trade". One is a noun, one is a verb. Just because a word contains it doesn't mean it relates to that meaning. Not to mention the "Trade" part of "Tradeskills" means nothing because "Trade" is only one part, the other part is skills.

~Chris

[____________Bartleby]

bump for ethernal - its absurd that engies are worse at BUILDING than traders.
Also, not to whine or anything, but for the sake of balance lets face facts - traders are the best class at almost all tradeskills, the best class at PvP, the best class at skill buffing, and the best class at target debuffing. And they used to be the best class at healing as well. Im not screaming nerf or anything, but lets get real here people. Engies need to be better at some tradeskills than traders. What shopkeeper do u know that knows how to make his merchandise better than the designer?
Trader = Bob Vila
Engie = Norm

who would u rather have build yer house? the guy who looks good in flanel, or the guy who actually does the work?

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Bartleby
who would u rather have build yer house? the guy who looks good in flanel, or the guy who actually does the work?

I think FC would choose the guy in flanel, would you done that Cz?

[______________Strana]

I think you guys have some problem adding.

Engineers can get thier skills far higher than a trader can in tradeskill if they get off thier lazy rear ends and ask a trader for buffs. There are far more engineer only items that add to tradeskills than for any other class.
engineer only items + trader buff = superior tradeskills than a trader.

you guys just want engineers to be superior and be completly self sufficent. If you all thought traders we're superior why did you all make engineers to do tradeskills?

Megabio,
Quit using Engineer as meaning they should be the best at build everything by far. Engineer is the best at building the one thing they should be best at. THIER ROBOT PET!!!!!!!!. Noone ever said that building had to be by using tradeskills.

[_______________Juggy]

MY question is, why can engineers just be the best at making mechanical things, like bots, and guns, and armor, and leave the rest up to the other classes of those specialties, and then have the trader be a "jack of all trades, master of none" template?

at least thats what i thought the tradeskills were like, i mean what fun is it to have 1 class that is the only option for making tradeskill items because they are the best at everything?


thats like saying Soldiers should be able to wield all weapons to include edged and blunt for no IP cost because anyone can swing a club.

[Peep]

I have to agree with the original poster here I feel that from the descriptions, Engineer and Trader, that the Engineer would have been the profession that makes guns, armor and all that stuff. And the Trader just trades things, buy low sell high.

Thinking that I wanted to make stuff I created an engineer but after hitting level 85 I found that the Trader was better suited at making things. I then made a Trader and at level 140 I am almost ready to make some things.

I would be very very upset if things were changed now!!

No matter if the engineer should have had the superior trade skills originally it is far far too late in the game to change things now.

If you want to do trade skills make a trader.

[____________Edvieira]

bump

[Krabbus]

When I started this thread I did want engineers to be superior when they got traders tradeskills buffs. Today is the issue different, engineers are best if they ever get hands on the stuff uniques mobs drops, bodyarmor from The One, spider glow (not dropping) etc.

Traders are best at building stuff, they can easily make QL200 NanoPrograms at level 160 with only QL125 imps - they can do this all alone, don't need any kind of help from either a doc or an engineer. If we look at engineers at level 160 they have to hunt for meastroes (most have to divest to cast it, and will charge thereafter) and when you got that right you have 30 minutes to do all your work. This is very annoying when you are a profession that should be able to build stuff - and just watch other professions do this easier than yourself selfbuffed.


The only thing I want to see is a minor tradeskill buffline for ME, EE, QFT, WS that buffs +20, +40 and +80. This will help the engineering profession alot, and if we want to do superior tradeskilling we can ask traders for a +125 buff (that's 45 points more than our "new" tradeskill buffline)

What do you Traders think of this idea? Remember it's almost half your best tradeskill buff...

The reason I mention this is because I think it's a bit wierd that one profession is all self-sufficient and the other isn't, and both have same base on skills. This minor tradeskill buffline for engineers will just balance it out, but still make traders the best tradeskillers selfbuffed and won't mess up any gamedesign.

[Highorbit]

Krabbus is a very reasonable guy

Personally I find playing my engineer frustrating and enjoy my NT a lot more. But still, I like being able to make stuff and help people.

I do not like the fact that *everything* I do as an engineer must first revolve around getting buffs from either a trader or an MP.

I have nothing against those two professions though. I would just like my own buffs so I don't have to feel like I'm annoying someone every single time I log on.

On items to buff engi trade skills... only came up with 3 engi only items...

HUD Upgrade: STM (+35EE/+35QFT) - Drops from TIM in the Biomare Dungeon - I got mine after killing TIM 20 times, a total of around 40 hours spent camping.

Engi Armour - I don't have it... drops from The One who is certainly not an easy kill. Very hard to get.

The rest have either not been found or are not engi only.

There are a few more that add to CL and NP etc, but those abilities have never been raised as a problem.

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by HighOrbit
I do not like the fact that *everything* I do as an engineer must first revolve around getting buffs from either a trader or an MP.

I have nothing against those two professions though. I would just like my own buffs so I don't have to feel like I'm annoying someone every single time I log on.

That's the sad part, I feel depressed everytime I have to bug a trader or a MP - and if I don't tip him/her will that person be angry with me (since that person may think I'm helping some others). I tip almost all the time, but sometimes it looks that isn't enough either...

I'm sorry, but I feel like a begging profession that needs help from anyone - I just take and take, and not giving... When a customers needs help I will say that I have the skills but needs help from a trader. I tell the customer either to find a trader that can buff me or someone else to do the work - then I don't have to bug a trader But the other way around, the traders don't need to say that to his customers

All I'm asking is a minor tradeskill buffline (20,40,80) so I don't need to feel that depressed when doing tradeskills... And the strange part is that most people asks engineers for help, and I have to ask traders for their help to help my customer. I know that's how it works in the realworld, but remember that you really don't need engineers to do your tradeskill jobs. At Rubi-Ka is engineers the forgotten step in the tradeskillprocess


Customer -> items + Trader = happy customer, 1 rich trader
Customer -> items + Engineer -> Engineer + Trader + items -> Trader + items = happy customer, 1 rich trader, 1 forgotten engineer

[Spleenman]

Originally posted by Strana
I think you guys have some problem adding.

Engineers can get thier skills far higher than a trader can in tradeskill if they get off thier lazy rear ends and ask a trader for buffs. There are far more engineer only items that add to tradeskills than for any other class.
engineer only items + trader buff = superior tradeskills than a trader.

you guys just want engineers to be superior and be completly self sufficent. If you all thought traders we're superior why did you all make engineers to do tradeskills?

Megabio,
Quit using Engineer as meaning they should be the best at build everything by far. Engineer is the best at building the one thing they should be best at. THIER ROBOT PET!!!!!!!!. Noone ever said that building had to be by using tradeskills.

rofl, is this really a trader telling us engis that we should beg for MORE buffs?

and if yall want to say that traders should be the best at TRADEskills, why shouldn't engineers be the best at Electrical ENGINEERING, or mechanical ENGINEERING?

just my 2 cents

[_____________Pays007]

I vote for equality!!!


Id rather be equal to engineers tradeskill wise. Engies need their own self only tradeskill buffs that dont stack with trader ones. I want fc to make it so engies and traders can make the QL200+ towers =)

[Sallust]

Hey FC, what is so awful about having two good tradeskill professions? It isn't like there is an overabundance of tradeskill users in the game as is. Most Traders I know don't bother with tradeskills

Fix Tradeskills!

[Warlock]

You know if Engineers have to be second best to the trader at tradeskills, we should be second best at PvP after them as well :-)

I think we could probably live with this

<yes I'm joking>

[____________McKinlay]

Originally posted by Tink
I have to agree with the original poster here I feel that from the descriptions, Engineer and Trader, that the Engineer would have been the profession that makes guns, armor and all that stuff. And the Trader just trades things, buy low sell high.

I just see 2 problem with that :
1) armor guns and all that stuff are the only one that can actually be sold.
2) problem with buy low sell high, is : everybody can do that.
I mean only way to make money, is trading with the players.

And when you see what's inside the trader shop (the reason i created my trader), well, you'll have a lot of problem making money with that:
clip size 1 ammo grenade launcher
BBI faithful (those can be sold, but it aint easy, as you can find them easily with CS)
Agent only rifle that do NOT have AS
...
Actually since the last patch, the one thing I've been able to sell from that was the aviator sunglasses that cost almost 1M for a +15 in air vehicle (and more interesting bonus : Make you look cool).

My point is if the trader are only here to trade and not build stuff, then why aren't they the only one that can trade? (yup that's stupid, just trying to say everybody should be able to build stuff, just some might be better than others, for different stuffs, and problem is there isn't enough stuff to build to make everyone happy)
I think only way to solve this is to add a hell of a lot more thing that can actually be build.

One weird thing I noticed is people make engi to build stuff and trader to PvP (I'm, like lots of people, not interested at all in PvP)

And just for fun : My Adv has green Mechanical Engineering
My soldier has green weapon smithing
...

[_______________North]

I think Trader should have highest trade skills in the game, at least the most common trade skills. Howeve, I do see a lot posts here that quote things from profession description. I would advice you guys to take a close look at it.

The problem I see is that:

a) you get the highest tradeskills in the game
b) you get the highest nanoskills in the game
c) you get the highest attack rating in the game
d) you have a very good crowd control ability
e) you have the best debuffs in the game
f) you have decent ability to heal
g) you own most other professions in PvP, not meaning mass PvP here albeit you are strong in that one as well
i) you are not weak in combat, you are one of the strongest

To be honest, traders are currently a profession with no dire weaknesses and multiple strenghts that makes it the best profession in the game at the moment. Like my friend quoted once, "Playing AO with trader, is like playing AO in an easy mode". If you know how the game works, playing trader is a walk in a park.

Judge yourself, if traders really are what the description says. I personally would flush all these profession description down the toilet. Not only the trader one.

Trader
"Roll up, roll up! You won't find a better profession than the Trader! Discounts, wares and credits galore. I tell no lie! I will even give you my no questions asked, 100 percent, money-back guarantee, and you can't beat that. Are you considering joining the trading business? Great choice. As a Trader you'll have access to materials and wares all across Rubi-Ka at the very best prices. That Soldier needs an implant created? Buy cheap, sell high. That Fixer needs a gun made? Buy cheap, sell high. That Nano Technician needs a nano crystal? Hehe, you've got it; buy cheap, sell high. The market is your oyster. But say, you look like you have an itchy trigger finger. No problem. Give us a gun and we'll use it alright, but let us use our nano programs and I'll take some of an enemy's skills and give them back to me. And I won't even charge them for it! He-he. Hey, I'll even swap minds with an enemy and control them that way. For no added cost, I'll increase the armor and skills of a friend through the sacrifice of my own skills. Hey, that's what we do; make transactions. So, how about it then? Become a Trader and be your own one-person shopping complex. Become one in 5 minutes and I'll even include this set of nano-sharpened Bronto Burger knives!"

Overview
The Trader is an unorthodox profession, the name coming from both the affinity for trade skills and the more symbolic trading or swapping of skills, health and more. He is at home in a team, as his sacrifices through nano programs are very valuable to his companions. The Trader is a very complex profession, and a very social one.

Strong fields
Trade skills

Nano formula skills

Weak fields
All combat

Key skills
Nano Energy Pool

Shotgun

Nano Execution Initiative

Navigation

All trade skills

All nano skills

Nanos
The nano lines for the Trader are hard to categorize. She can drain a target of health, nano points, skills or protection, getting some of the drained points for herself. Likewise, she can drain herself of the same, lending out some amount of it to her target, or even her whole team. The Trader, by manipulating nano-bots, may also take over the body of a monster or alien, and control the body for a period of time. In addition to this she has a line of root programs.

Initiative skill transfer

Combat skill transfer

Health transfer

Armor transfer

Trade skill buff

Damage buff

Root

Nano transfer

Pacify

Charm

Computer Literacy buff

[____________McKinlay]

Big point here is most of our nanos aren't like other professions buff, they are transfert.

This mean we have lot less for you to have little more.

I mean look at the first team wrangler (low lvl here) : +10 for the team, -42 for the caster.
Heals : +72 for the target -55 for the caster
Lent nano : +50 target, -50 caster, ...

So yes we have best AR in solo, but in team,...

I didn't try the calms yet, but the charms are useless, that's not like other prof charms, you have a pet, but you don't have the ability to move or fight for a time much longer than the life time of the pet(this mean if you solo and those are yellow or orange mobs, you're dead if u use charm).

You HAVE to know how to play before being able to use the trader nano in an efficient way