Tradeskills: Engineers Vs. Traders

[Warlock]

Ok _at lower levels_ (which is what we seem to be concentrating on at the moment) a Trader has more free IP to devote to tradeskills should he wish to.

I have a level 25 trader (to get me into the shop) and I grabbed all the nanos I could use along the way. Every level he has maxed, all base abilities, shotgun, nano int, both evades, comp lit, map nav, and I'm pretty sure every skill under nano and aiding (may not have maxed one of them) plus raised elec eng dueing the first couple of levels to equip the lamp and night goggles and I still have lots of IP left to play with (no I havent raised any tradeskill since thats not what he is there for)

An eng by comparison would have to raise most of his nano and aiding skills (for med packs, bot, pets heals, armour buffs etc) comp lit, elec eng as above, pistol (or shotgun or MA if you actually wanted to do some damage) map nav and possibly have maxed all his abilities (certainly up to level 15 anyway)

What he probably wont have is nano int and any evades if he is using trimmers (and I'm not even assuming a full 'suite' of trimmers, just a couple) as he would have to raise the skills appropriate for the trimmer use and I'm also assuming hes making his own QL30 increase agressiveness trimmer.

This also assumes he is not OE'ing on trimmers as FC basically told us we had to in out Professionals report to notice any difference.

At 25, the eng will not have any IP left to play with for 'other' tradeskills (as I said aside from the trimmer ones), unlike the Trader

At that point it doesnt really matter whos skills are cheaper if you dont have any points left.

[___________Vrischika]

I particularly love the 'Engineers should engineer, and Traders should trade' lines of reasoning. Dictionary definitions are wonderful for lending a bit of inarguable fact to a flailing debate.

I say yes! Give the Engineers what they want, so long as they are happy with the flip side of this particular coin. Consider...


"Patch XX.XX Notes

Profession Changes:

In response to many player calls for Engineers that engineer and Traders that trade, the following changes will take affect.

Engineer:

All Engineer trade skills will be reset to a new, off yellowey-green colour, representing a maximum point increase per level of 10. This should allow the Engineer profession to 'build stuff' more effectively. To reflect that only Engineers should be able to build things, all other professions will have all trade skills reset to a sort of dark purpley-black, indicatinig a maximum point increase of 0.5 per level.

Engineers will no longer be able to equip weapons, or use Healing Kits or First Aid Stims. (See 'Soldier' and 'Doctor' below)

Trader:

To reflect the salesman aspect of this profession, all shop terminals will now only be useable by players with VisualProfession: Trader. By giving Traders exclusive access to shops, it is hoped they will act as middlemen to the rest of the playerbase, thus bringing them more into line with their intended function.

Also, all player to player transactions must now take place through the Trader class. This will be accomplished by preventing any other profession from broadcasting on the various global 'Shopping' channels. Other players will need to make contact with a Trader to act as broker if the wish goods to be sold in this manner. To prevent cheating, we will also be restricting broadcasting over any other global channel to the Trader profession only. It is envisaged that Group formation will take place through the Trader profession exclusively, as part of thier 'sales pitch'.


Traders will no longer be able to equip weapons, or use Healing Kits or First Aid Stims. (See 'Soldier' and 'Doctor' below)


etc, etc."


Silly, eh? But the point is, we're all supposed to be a bit of everything, something the dictionary bashers seem to forget...


Vrischika, Trader.

[Destractor]

In terms of IP, those who say engies should not use weapons must never have teamed with an engie.

I have managed to max most of my trade skills as well as shotgun, but I have never put anything into evades (so if I get aggro I die from crits) I only have a minor amount in bio, so my bot heals suck, and nothing in first aid.

It is very painful being a trade skill engie, and it is not helped by the knowledge that traders will be better than me.

We are not best at any trade skills (not one), and I could cope with that if we were best at something.

I agree with the bit of everything thing, but pretty much every other prof can do certain things, but are best at others.

Guess outdoor hunting will help us.

Trade skills are engies ONLY way of helping people, and we are a SUPPORT class. I thought support classes were support because we could help people in other areas.

(and don't tell me wrangles are of no use sinse oe patch)

[coldwarkid]

Originally posted by Vrischika
I particularly love the 'Engineers should engineer, and Traders should trade' lines of reasoning. Dictionary definitions are wonderful for lending a bit of inarguable fact to a flailing debate.

[[ snip sarcasm ]]

Silly, eh? But the point is, we're all supposed to be a bit of everything, something the dictionary bashers seem to forget...

This thread has become too heavy to read through, but if you'd been following it from the start you'd have seen two distinct lines of argument:

• Those who thought that their profession should be the best, no argument and damn the other profession,
• Those who thought that something could be done to make the Engineer profession more useful without simply shunting the problem over to the Traders.

The thread has descended into recriminations, flames and partisan posting more than once already, so let's not do it again please. On the other hand, if you have any useful suggestions, this is the place to post them. We'll be glad to look them over and offer you an honest opinion.

Cheers,

~R~

[___________Vrischika]

Jolly good.

I must admit, 17 pages is a little excessive. Perhaps some *constructive* Engineer ought to take the good ideas from here (if any) and start a new thread in the Engineer forum?

Speaking as a low-level soloing Trader who quite enjoys tradeskills, my sole experience of Engineers is seeing children with links to a thread, adversarially titled 'Engineers Vs Traders' swagering into the, unrelated, forums I frequent and having them start screaming that Traders need nerfing, again.

I should just learn to accept what gets thrown at me, and accept that he who shrieks the loudest, gets what he wants.

[coldwarkid]

That would have been Intrepid, a week or two ago, posting to the Trader forum.

Engineers are frustrated right now, since the pathing/aggro issues with bots mean that we're not good in teams and even have issues soloing, we have no buffs that are in demand and our tradeskills, which we're supposed to be good at, are eclipsed. It's even highly debatable as to whether we're the best pet profession. That's not to justify the adversarial nature of a lot of the threads, just to explain where some of it's coming from.

I think that most of the more level headed Engineers accept that crying nerf (or boosting Engineers above Traders, which is pretty much the same thing) isn't constructive and is never going to happen anyway. Once you get past that fact, you're looking instead for some way to make Engineers more useful/unique in tradeskills, or to get around the other issues the profession has somehow.

Some of the better ideas that have been suggested are:

• A complimentary buffline, smaller than the Trader lines, which stacks with them and is non-selfonly.
• Doing the same thing with gadgets, time-limited or otherwise.
• "Sympathetic buffs" that don't add anything by themselves, but improve the performance of other bufflines.
• Customisation widgets, to differentiate the two professions. Engineers get one line, Traders get another, different line.

That's just the tradeskill fixes, since that's what this thread has focused on.

Cheers,

~R~

[Plasmatorch]

Originally posted by Heavypacker
One bit the Engies are ignoring. It costs you a little less to raise the tradeskills than Traders. It's just you don't WANT to raise tradeskills.

Sure, its not MUCH of a difference, but it means you can get higher lvl's than traders if you devoted the same amount of IP.

Actualy there is one flaw to your arguemnet. Both Engineers and Traders can raise trade skills by 5 points per lvl so engineers still can not get a higher lvl than a trader. the fact that our trade skills are cheaper than a traders is not always true since EE an WS is green for an engineer and a trader so they cost the same. Also traders get green psychology where as it is dark blue for an engineer. Now where the rest of the ip comes from is that the evades for a trader are blue. Dark blue for an engineer. Body dev is the same Blue for trader, Dark blue for engineer. So you see the fact that our trade skills are cheaper well means. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING since everything else for a trader is cheaper to raise and some trade skills are equal to an engineer's in cost.

--------------------------------------
AO engineer = a test in how much patience you realy have
--------------------------------------
that little rumour you heard about me well
it's true, I am a masochist I keep my engineer as my main
http://www.anarchy-online.com/charac...me/plasmatorch
--------------------------------------
Main Entry: AO Engineer
Pronunciation: ay-oh en-gin-ear
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, from Cathern "plasmatorch" Gomes,died how many times???????
Date: circa 2002
1 : pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering
---------------------------------------
one question still burns inside my mind
whay are traders trying to be enigneers???
---------------------------------------
Date of registration :2001-11-23 22:27:11 UTC
Account status :Open until 2002-12-18
:Subscription is cancelled
Next billing :Not scheduled

[Plasmatorch]

Originally posted by Soyuz
That would have been Intrepid, a week or two ago, posting to the Trader forum.

Engineers are frustrated right now, since the pathing/aggro issues with bots mean that we're not good in teams and even have issues soloing, we have no buffs that are in demand and our tradeskills, which we're supposed to be good at, are eclipsed. It's even highly debatable as to whether we're the best pet profession. That's not to justify the adversarial nature of a lot of the threads, just to explain where some of it's coming from.

I think that most of the more level headed Engineers accept that crying nerf (or boosting Engineers above Traders, which is pretty much the same thing) isn't constructive and is never going to happen anyway. Once you get past that fact, you're looking instead for some way to make Engineers more useful/unique in tradeskills, or to get around the other issues the profession has somehow.

Some of the better ideas that have been suggested are:

• A complimentary buffline, smaller than the Trader lines, which stacks with them and is non-selfonly.
• Doing the same thing with gadgets, time-limited or otherwise.
• "Sympathetic buffs" that don't add anything by themselves, but improve the performance of other bufflines.
• Customisation widgets, to differentiate the two professions. Engineers get one line, Traders get another, different line.

That's just the tradeskill fixes, since that's what this thread has focused on.

Cheers,

~R~

Well actualy soyuz I think that most of the engineers have acepted the fact that there will never be a fix for the engineer profession. Since FC has decided to aviod this thread like it carries the plague. So and with them releasing shadolands and theese new "booster packs" the engineer profession will remain as it is. The only profession that makes all the other professions look good.

--------------------------------------
AO engineer = a test in how much patience you realy have
--------------------------------------
that little rumour you heard about me well
it's true, I am a masochist I keep my engineer as my main
http://www.anarchy-online.com/charac...me/plasmatorch
--------------------------------------
Main Entry: AO Engineer
Pronunciation: ay-oh en-gin-ear
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, from Cathern "plasmatorch" Gomes,died how many times???????
Date: circa 2002
1 : pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering
---------------------------------------
one question still burns inside my mind
whay are traders trying to be enigneers???
---------------------------------------
Date of registration :2001-11-23 22:27:11 UTC
Account status :Open until 2002-12-18
:Subscription is cancelled
Next billing :Not scheduled

[Krabbus]

Please take a look at this letter: Open Letter to Omni-Tek Engineers. So over to my question, is this posted by an funcom employee? If so, why is this adressed to Engineers???? That's the most stupid thing, we all know that the best engineers is the traders (the ones that is good to sell stuff)

[_______________Vydas]

I dunno, ask the guy that responded here:

http://www.anarchy-online.com/conten...articles/4421L

[Plasmatorch]

Well it is appearent that both of them are out of touch with reality.

--------------------------------------
AO engineer = a test in how much patience you realy have
--------------------------------------
that little rumour you heard about me well
it's true, I am a masochist I keep my engineer as my main
http://www.anarchy-online.com/charac...me/plasmatorch
--------------------------------------
Main Entry: AO Engineer
Pronunciation: ay-oh en-gin-ear
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, from Cathern "plasmatorch" Gomes,died how many times???????
Date: circa 2002
1 : pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering
---------------------------------------
one question still burns inside my mind
whay are traders trying to be enigneers???

[________________Quad]

Wow this thread is huge. Not that it makes any difference. But here is a quick and easy thing they could implement to make Engineers the master builders like they should be.

If a trader makes something it has a chance of becoming broken when used. Not some whimpy .001 to 1% chance. Like a 50% chance of becoming broken. Hehe ... buy from a trader ... use it twice and it breaks. lol.

But if an engineer makes it ... well thats a different story. It lasts forever.

Haha ... good luck engineers. You can always hope for improvements.

Troyt Lvl 181 Clan engineer ... once again on vacation for another 3 months. If I don't get lost I may return yet again.

[____________Intrepid]

Originally posted by L1V1D
In terms of IP, those who say engies should not use weapons must never have teamed with an engie.

I have managed to max most of my trade skills as well as shotgun, but I have never put anything into evades (so if I get aggro I die from crits) I only have a minor amount in bio, so my bot heals suck, and nothing in first aid.

It is very painful being a trade skill engie, and it is not helped by the knowledge that traders will be better than me.

We are not best at any trade skills (not one), and I could cope with that if we were best at something.

I agree with the bit of everything thing, but pretty much every other prof can do certain things, but are best at others.

Guess outdoor hunting will help us.

Trade skills are engies ONLY way of helping people, and we are a SUPPORT class. I thought support classes were support because we could help people in other areas.

(and don't tell me wrangles are of no use sinse oe patch)

Amen,

I have given up the engie blight and switching sides.

[____________Intrepid]

Just make maestros and mochams available as pills in a shop got 50k each. thats my new solution. Less begging for buffs for engies and less getting pestered for buffs for mps and traders.

[______________Coc^-^]

Simple solution to balance things out:

Make a shop with trade skill items that only is available to engis.
Some items that are used for alot of things etc or new kewl items that will be used for new stuff that perhaps will get implemented.

Trader need engie for stuff only available for them and Engie need Trader for buffs.

[Sean-Roach]

I understand not wanting to read 17 pages of comments before placing your own, but you should know two things.

1. The suggestion of engineer only tradeskills and engineer only tradeskill steps has been made.

2. The singe marks on those posts are still smoldering.

Not that I disagree, but I hope you have a tough skin. You might want to go on trade for a few shape-soft-armor PPE's.

[Krabbus]

Cosmik, I see that the are coming a "lot" of changes to the engineering profession, such as tradeskills rings, armor etc - and if it isn't impossible to get I think that engineering for engineers isn't that bad if we can get the maestroes - but can't u say to the designers that we can't do a single thing in 30 minutes, please increase the duration to at least 2 hours, please

I think the traders will like this idea too...

[Maximilian]

First, support to Krabbus (and all traders) - this might not change a single thing about the Trader versus Engineer discussion, but might help to relax the situation (less begging is good).

Second, when considering the factor robot pet next time you might want to take a look at a highly interesting thread in the Engi board:

A few things I still don't understand

-> Funcom: Never underestimate the (combined) intelligence of your player base, it will reveal the 'top secret' game mechanics sooner or later.

So long,

Max(imilian)

[Plasmatorch]

Wow great giong cos you killed this thread buy ignoring it WAY TO GO.
Good job
/me sarcasticly applauds cosmics devilish plan.

--------------------------------------
AO engineer = a test in how much patience you realy have
--------------------------------------
that little rumour you heard about me well
it's true, I am a masochist I keep my engineer as my main
http://www.anarchy-online.com/charac...me/plasmatorch
--------------------------------------
Main Entry: AO Engineer
Pronunciation: ay-oh en-gin-ear
Function: noun
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary, from Cathern "plasmatorch" Gomes,died how many times???????
Date: circa 2002
1 : pleasure in being abused or dominated : a taste for suffering
---------------------------------------
one question still burns inside my mind
whay are traders trying to be enigneers???

edited to add my special brand of sarcasm to it not just the general brand found above

[Bothead]

I have no problems whatsoever with Traders having the better tradeskill buffs in the game, his role is afterall to 'trade' in skills, that is give/sell skills to others, and steal them from enemies (skill drians). The Engineer is the maker of items, not the skill buff provider. Neither do I problems with the same IP cost for Engi and Trader tradeskills.

However: Provided the same IP allocation in basic abilities and tradeskills, I believe the Engineer should always be able to make better items than traders, [b]provided[/] he also has the Trader's buffs running. This would require the Engi to have some buffs or items of his own (self-only). How this can be implemented, I leave to the designers, but I have the following suggestion:

: There are already items in the game that raise certain tradeskills, but not many are actually practical. I suggest an item that goes in a Utility slot (head?), that can be made from special parts dropped in a quest After all, why should Fixers be the only profession that get all their class defining items in quest form? ;p Make this item upgradeable with lvls, in the same manner as Agent's Kevlar Balaclava or Fixer's NCU Hacker Interface. This should be easy to implement and keep balanced.