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Thread: Tradeskills: Engineers Vs. Traders

  1. #361
    a) you get the highest tradeskills in the game
    Yep, we get to take advantage of this after level 150, since pre-level 150 doing tradeskills leads to self-gimpdom. Now what portion of the casual playerbase reaches level 150+? That's what I thought: not much. Isn't it reasonable to allow those few who do reach high levels to excel in this particular field?

    b) you get the highest nanoskills in the game
    After landing both drains, yes. Prior to landing the first drain, we're on par (maybe less so) with the other nano-intensive profs. After the first drain, we're better than the other profs except for MPs running mochams. After the 2nd drain, we're slightly better than MPs running mochams. Drains last 3 minutes, and one of the drains has a 190% NR. Meaning that, most of the time, we're walking around with mediocre nano skills.

    c) you get the highest attack rating in the game
    After draining once, we have attack ratings slighty less than pure combat classes. After the 2nd drain, we do have better ATKs, but remember drains last 3 minutes, and need to be continously refreshed. Also most of our weapons skills are dark blue, requiring much more IP investment than pure combat profs, so much so, that a trader must decide balance the weapon skills IP cost with trade skills IP cost. Meaning that, most of the time, we're walking around with mediocre weapon skills.

    d) you have a very good crowd control ability
    It's OK, not quite as good as a bureaucrat's (no AoE mezz), but better than an NT's for the most part (at certain level ranges). This is probably the single biggest advantage we bring to teams.

    e) you have the best debuffs in the game
    Again, they last 3 minutes, and they don't make a world of difference in PvM. Ever head of Nano Shutdown? Rapid Palsy? Crown of Frost? Get hit with some of those, and the come whining about how MPs, doctors, and NTs are overpowered.

    f) you have decent ability to heal
    Decent, perhaps, but still places us after doctors, adventurers, and MAs. Can't realistically use team heals in most situations.

    So let's recap for a moment. Traders have uber nano skills and ATK provided they have their two best drains running from the Divest and Plunder lines. Until high levels, these entails 'laddering up' drains. Plunders have a 190% NR associated with them. Typical laddering looks like:

    1) Cast Divest #1, wait 6 seconds for recharge.
    2) Cast Plunder #1, wait 6 seconds for recharge. If countered (about 50% of the time), repeat step 2.
    3) Cast best Divest, wait 6 seconds for recharge.
    4) Cast best Plunder, wait 6 seconds for recharge. If countered (about 33% of the time), repeat step 4.
    5) After 2:30, repeat steps 3 through 5.

    In a team environment, keeping the best drains running is frustrating at best. Why? Because, team members die, go LD, AFK and rebuff while drains are running (out). Invariably, steps 1 and 2 need to be re-performed quite frequently, meaning we start out a square 1 (read:mediocre) over and over again.

    Now, take into account that calms need to be cast as well as the occasional heal. Also, some teams like it when you have a nice team skill wrangler running at all times. What does all this amount to? That's right: THE MOST COMPLEX AND BRAIN-DRAINING JUGGLING ACT YOU CAN IMAGINE (at least in AO). So let's revise the above steps 1-5:

    1) Cast Divest #1, wait 6 seconds for recharge.
    2) Calm adds. If countered (about 33% of the time), repeat step 2. Repeat for as many adds as need to be calmed.
    3) Cast Plunder #1, wait 6 seconds for recharge. If countered (about 50% of the time), repeat step 3.
    4) Cast best Divest, wait 6 seconds for recharge.
    5) Calm adds. If countered (about 33% of the time), repeat step 5. Repeat for as many adds as need to be calmed.
    6) Cast best Plunder, wait 6 seconds for recharge. If countered (about 33% of the time), repeat step 6.
    7) Cast best Team Wrangle, wait 6 seconds for recharge.
    8) After 2:30, repeat steps 4 through 8, bearing in mind that because of Team Wrangle lowering nano/weapon skills by 150+, counters will occur about 25% more often.

    And you have the gall to come in here and whine about us getting good tradeskills. Here, I have a great suggestion. Play a trader to level 150+. And then whine about how it's a walk in the park and how we shouldn't be any more uber.

  2. #362
    I have to agree with Jafwo, his summary is the whole reason I made a trader, the fact that you are always doing something, keeping up on drains, watching for adds, timing when you should cast your drains knowing you will be vunerable for the next few seconds in case an add comes in. It can be alot of work to stay on top of things.

    I dont see what the big deal is with the competition for engies to be better tradeskillers then traders, or is it just another reason for everyone to get on traders.

    So we have tradeskill buffs, thats what we do, if "trading" were an actual skill then put it in game, and watch how many more uber rich traders come into being, "buy low/sell high" imagine a system and how easy it would be to become rich.

    Instead of comparing engies and traders, maybe engies should just ask for some tradeskill buffs, instead of bringing traders into it. Would be alot easier with less debate, you get a pet and your prof is designed to work on that pet, hence the name engineer, and the pet being a robot.

    Jagdtyger
    Vampiira

  3. #363
    Originally posted by JagdTyger
    Instead of comparing engies and traders, maybe engies should just ask for some tradeskill buffs, instead of bringing traders into it. Would be alot easier with less debate, you get a pet and your prof is designed to work on that pet, hence the name engineer, and the pet being a robot.
    In real life will traders have customer relation, and engineers make the utilities for the trader. It's almost like this at Rubi-Ka except that traders can easily make utilities by themself. But, if it's really high quality level that traders can't reach they have to ask engineers to make it (since they got boosting items).

    So the system works if it's really high quality level (like towers), traders and engineers have to help each other. If it's lower quality level, like nanos up to QL212 can traders make this by themself, and forget all about engineers. In comparision need engineers help from traders to be able to make it.

    Engineers should have a tradeskill line that buffs ME,EE,QFT,WS to be more independent, but when they are going to do high quality level tradeskills they should ask traders for help, and the other way around if traders need to make really high quality level.

    The buffline for engineers could buff +20, +40, +80 or +20, +40, +60

  4. #364
    This isnt real life tho, if it was we would have to question alot more then engies/traders :P

    Hell if it was, Engies wouldnt have time to make things outside of what their pet needs, they would be spending all their time on their pet, making sure its in working order, and tweaking it, since they are tied to it, and dependent on it.

    If its Engies being the base for building in this game and you want to tie in real life (its a game and real life isnt an option), then you would have to give up your pet. How many aircraft engineers are also the combat pilots afterall? You would be making your pet for some other profession to use in the field.

    Make sense?

    Jagdtyger
    Vampiira

  5. #365
    My (sub 100) experience with an engineer. My main.

    This is in a mission area. Solo.

    Buff self and pet. Always executing buff on self first, then pet so you can see when the buffs about to expire.

    Recharge nanos for the third time. (well, my medical skills are sub-par.)

    Go kill somewhere between 1-3 MOBS.

    Rebuff pet and self. Anywhere between 20% to 80% of the buffs will be expiring soon, and I'd rather waste a few minutes on a buff than have it expire in a fight. If it's the second time to buff, only a few buffs will be about ready to expire. If it's the third or fourth time, you might have to rebuff things like the shields, (which last a fair length of time.)

    Recharge nanos once or twice. (See above about my sub-par healing skills. I can consistantly create level to level+4 nanocrystals however.)

    Go kill somewhere between 1-3 MOBS.

  6. #366
    Originally posted by Raymote
    [B]Why should a *TRADE*r not be good at *TRADE* skills?

    How about this, traders get tradeskills at 4pts per level AND the buffs get moved to engis, but engis loose their bots? B]


    dude, please
    /tell Numeric

    --:o IS NOT .
    [Khaln]: it's teh small and soft
    [Khaln]: BUT
    [Khaln]: I need teh large and hard

  7. #367
    Originally posted by Raymote

    A tradeskill in the real world (As in "To learn a trade") is a craft or constructive skill such as "plumber" "engineer" "architect" "dunnykindiver". Thats a pretty wide remit..

    I'm not seeing "trader" on this list
    /tell Numeric

    --:o IS NOT .
    [Khaln]: it's teh small and soft
    [Khaln]: BUT
    [Khaln]: I need teh large and hard

  8. #368
    Originally posted by JagdTyger
    This isnt real life tho, if it was we would have to question alot more then engies/traders :P
    No it isn't, but in AO is Engineers currently the best tradeskillers, but are far from independent on normal tradeskills. Traders are so independt it's possible to be at normal tradeskills.

    And the ones that saying why shouldn't *TRADE*RS be good at *TRADE*SKILLS, why shouldn't *ENGINEER*S be good at *ENGINEER*ING... that is so lame statement...

    Hell if it was, Engies wouldnt have time to make things outside of what their pet needs, they would be spending all their time on their pet, making sure its in working order, and tweaking it, since they are tied to it, and dependent on it.
    Oh, really? Engineers is today best at some tower building (not placement), best at armor creation and other really high quality stuff if we ever get help.

    Traders can do everything by theirself.

    traders + parts -> finnished product -> happy customer
    engineers + parts -> engineers + traders + parts -> finnished product -> happy customer

    mmm, got to be something wierd in the logic above...


    then you would have to give up your pet.
    Haven't seen my pet for months, I know it's somewhere in my inventory but it seems to get stuck everytime I'm trying to get it out...

    How many aircraft engineers are also the combat pilots afterall? You would be making your pet for some other profession to use in the field.
    Lets say you are the first person to develop a new utility, do you really think others are able to controll it without your knowledge? The developer itself is the first, and best one to controll it!

  9. #369
    Jawfo, actually it doesn't have any difference if you mention "after". The fact is that you have those abilties/boost etc. Like I said you have no dire weaknesses, most professions have them, but not traders. Your skill are well balanced even in the less important areas.
    Last edited by North; Dec 17th, 2002 at 12:44:38.

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