Tradeskills: Engineers Vs. Traders

[Krabbus]

There is a problem with the gamedesign and the logical structure, and the problem is the balance in tradeskills between Engineers and Traders.

The problem is that, in my opinion, that Traders never should be better than Engineers to build a-graded guns, but be good at logistic and trading (that's why they have comp.lit buffs to get better prices, and still have titles like Salesman and CEO)...

Today can Traders raise their tradeskills 5 points each level as the Engineers can, and they also have the huge tradeskill buff (up to 120 points)

So there is a huge imbalance between the Engineers and Traders, and there is many way to fix this (not nerfing), and this need to be fixed to really make an Engineer an engineer and a Trader a trader.

Way to fix the imbalance:
1. This is not an option, but it should be like this before the beta. Traders should only be able to raise their tradeskills (where they have buff) only 4 points each level since they have tradeskills buff to balance this.
3. This is also a nerf, so it isn't an option. Make the tradeskills buff line others only...
2. Give Engineers a tradeskills buffline that stack with the traders buff and is selfonly. This will also balance the skillpoints between the Engineers and Traders. The buff can be half of the traders buff, for example +20, +40 and +60

The most attractive option is point 3, the third option will do as same as the first option (I really think point 1 was intended from the start, but I guess FC was rushing before going through the all this)


Please take a look at the description of Engineers and the description of Traders in the online manual. Do you find any sentence that says Traders are master of weapon, armor, crystal creation??? If you think about this in a logical way, Engineers should be the master of this (they have all the education)


What do you think? And is it possible to get an offical response from Cosmik or Cz - you have never comment this problem...

[_______________Flope]

I agree but they ways you suggested arent good.

Superior tradeskill buffing item or buffs for engineer. That Stack with the existing ones. Or something if you now would touch anythings what trader have you probably would give the last leave call to the rest of the traders.

Engineers need love anyways..

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by Repulse
I agree but they ways you suggested arent good.

Superior tradeskill buffing item or buffs for engineer. That Stack with the existing ones. Or something if you now would touch anythings what trader have you probably would give the last leave call to the rest of the traders.

This will not be superior buffs - if we go for the third option will this buffline be half of the traders buff.

This will make the Tradres superior of making utilities and weapons if both are selfbuffed (Traders can refuse to give away their buffs)

The balance will be like this:
at level 200 will the Trader have 60 points more than Engineers when both are selfbuffed, and when the Engineer gets the traderbuff will this person have 60 points more than Traders. This way will the Engineer only be better than Traders if he get the tradersbuff and not equal as it is today...

If this is implemented will this balance up and Traders won't be nerfed in any way.

[_____________Raymote]

Why should a *TRADE*r not be good at *TRADE* skills?

The class descriptions you link to give "strong fields: tradeskills" for both engis and traders.

That means tradeskills is a "master" activity for both classes..

Yes traders get tradeskill buffs but engis get bots which is technically an engineer activity even though it doesnt use tradeskills, I see that as a good balance.

How about this, traders get tradeskills at 4pts per level AND the buffs get moved to engis, but engis loose their bots?
(Yes thats sarcasm, sorry - I know its the lowest form of wit.)

This has been discussed many many times before..

[_______________Flope]

Originally posted by Raymote

How about this, traders get tradeskills at 4pts per level AND the buffs get moved to engis, but engis loose their bots?
(Yes thats sarcasm, sorry - I know its the lowest form of wit.)

Its comparable with traders loosing shotgun + divests + wranglers since you cant actually do any damage with tradeskills nor make good money yet..

so shutup..

and our 'bots' need nano skills instead of 'engineer' skills to be made.

Think about how ridiculous is it if we have elec. mech. and qunatum engineer skills and we still use NANO formulas to create pet instead of really MAKING one from physical parts.

Instead of armor buffs that sucks lmao amount of ncus we should have like items that we can create buffing our ACs, reflection shield, damage shield and weapon damage. Which would be chargeable with batteries of someshort?

I have played trader class you guys dont have any reason to whine except 14.4 changes..

[_______________Flope]

Originally posted by Raymote
Why should a *TRADE*r not be good at *TRADE* skills?

Only 'tradeskills' in the game are psychology and comp lit. But thanks to FC psychology still doesnt seem to affect the prices/amount you get paid.

tradeskill as trading abilities etc more money in terms and crap. Making deals. Buying stuff cheaper etc.

Trader = Exchanger when we speak of 'tradeskill'

tradeskill as 'createitemskill' making stuff to own use.

Engineer = Maker not 'trader' nor Exchanger.

Both of them have the same 'pros/cons' the actual trading. Which should be more better for traders as it currently is.

[_____________Raymote]

I do not belive the trader was ever intended as a merchant as you are suggesting. Yes if you want to play a merchant then trader is the class for you, but it isnt a pure thing.

Why are comp lit and psycology the only tradeskills??

A tradeskill in the real world (As in "To learn a trade") is a craft or constructive skill such as "plumber" "engineer" "architect" "dunnykindiver". Thats a pretty wide remit..

Trade: "An occupation, especially one requiring skilled labor; craft: the building trades, including carpentry, masonry, plumbing, and electrical installation."
Source: www.dictionary.com

[_______________Flope]

try:
http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=trader

You should also push the trader button at char creation..

[Krabbus]

I think of traders as trade in skills, that's why they are stealing skills from others people (mobs) and transfer it back to theirself, they suffer when they heal others and so on... Traders is the only profession in the game that have Computer Literacy buff, and they have it for one reason - to get better prices in shops.

If I designed this game I would give the Traders the tradeskill buffs but I would also make it only possible to raise their tradeskills 4 points each level - because their ability is to trade skills - not to be master of weaponcreation etc as they are today.

That's the hole problem, and to balance this we could either nerf or give engineers a buff that balance this out. Personally I hate nerfs so this is not an option, but I hope you see the problem there - really, please explain me how a trader can make a complex rifle much earlier than an engineer!!!

The gamedesign is complex, but every profession in this game has better base in some skills than others. Soldier have good skills for weaponsskills, metas is the master of nanoskills and so on. But the problem is that both Engineers and Traders have the same base in tradeskills, and traders also have the huge tradeskill buff. This need to be balanced, the engineer should be superior making utilities, but only when he gets the buffs from a trader and not equal as they are today. Look at the first post for possible solutions.

[Cosmik]

Just wanting to let you know that I'm keeping an eye on this discussion. I'll also make sure the tradeskill designer sees it.

[_____________Makarov]

Ok there is only one reasonable solution
What we do are that we take Tradeskills tab and Spying tab and redo them.
As result we get 3 tabs.
§1 Mercantile. ( Mercantile skill is the art of buying low and selling high. This skill guarantees lower initial prices for goods, equipment, and services, and improves chances of getting better deals by bargaining.)
Only one skill there would be *Psychology* make Both Crats and Traders masters there and give them both high End buffs in it. If FC ever fix it then this skill will get you better deals when you sell/buy from NPC. Aslo it could be used to trigger some kind of reaction from special NPCs like some quest where you need to talk to one High OT crat who would not talk to you if you dont have 500skill.
§2 Creation and Repair. Domain of engineers where they are king of the hill whit best skill cost (in most skills) and good buffs for all trade skills ( notice i didint said best). After engineers we would have Traders Whit a bit worse skills (but best buffs) NT/MP (who are still best in NP whit best NP buffs). And fixers who have same skills and traders but dont have any buffs att all. And last class here would be Docs who are masters when it comes to chem (all those kits/labs) whit high buff and good skill in nano programing.
§3 Illegal activitty and Security. (sneak, complit, lockpick, disarm and perception). Fixer is da man here who have best buffs in Complit/Lockpick/disarm and good buffs in sneak/perception. After him we have Agents who are best sneakers have best buff in that to and have good buffs in complit/lockpick/perception.
And last but not least good class here are Adventurers who are best when it comes to Perception. have best buffs in it and good buffs in Lockpick/sneak/disarm.´



BTW this all wont ever make into game so stop drooling/cursing already.

[_____________Makarov]

Originally posted by Cosmik
Just wanting to let you know that I'm keeping an eye on this discussion. I'll also make sure the tradeskill designer sees it.

BTW Cosmik if i redo my last post a bit and add few other point wich comes to todays trade skills ( maybe even creation/repair skills) in future.
To who should i send them to make best impact?

[Maximilian]

As this is under surveillance of the powers - Hello Cosmik, hope you are fit again - I would like to add some ideas for Mr./Mrs. Trade Skill designer:

- Engi only tools. Not a perfect idea, because this is (still) a skill based game (fearing end of the year ), but this would be a quick fix (FC typical - hehe, couldn't hold back). Another chance to put something on Boss MOBs ...

- Add a minor line of tradeskill buffs (combos: ME/EE; ME/QFFT; ME/WS; ...) for the Engis. Lower but more versatile. Maybe you could add the limit, that only one can be cast at a time, or something.

- Most beautiful would be a new pet line that enhances your tradeskills while active (helper bots). Limited life time and one at a time only. (Sigh, such a nice idea) I would even volunteer in programming this stuff (desparate approach).

- Make tradeskill buffs 'other' only. I really like this idea, because it fits the intention of a trader much more than pure buffs. For a pure buff he has not to pay anything in skills.

- Or, make the the tradeskill buffs of the traders more ransack like. To get somebody else has to pay.

Ok, the last two ones won't happen, because nerfing is restricted to Adventurers, but at least argue why not (the standard sentences are known by now).

So long,

Max(imilian)

[BGumble]

Unbelievably silly. You want to be 'best' at a pointless and hardly implemented area of the game? and to do so we've had suggestions of everything from changing Trader skill colours to removeing buffs from them to making those buffs cause a loss on the caster like a wrangle.

The whole point of buffs is that you go get them from people.

[coldwarkid]

Originally posted by Maximilian
- Engi only tools. Not a perfect idea, because this is (still) a skill based game (fearing end of the year ), but this would be a quick fix (FC typical - hehe, couldn't hold back). Another chance to put something on Boss MOBs ...

- Add a minor line of tradeskill buffs (combos: ME/EE; ME/QFFT; ME/WS; ...) for the Engis. Lower but more versatile. Maybe you could add the limit, that only one can be cast at a time, or something.

- Most beautiful would be a new pet line that enhances your tradeskills while active (helper bots). Limited life time and one at a time only. (Sigh, such a nice idea) I would even volunteer in programming this stuff (desparate approach).

Excellent ideas. The eng. only tools are a surprisingly attractive option, especially if they're something that an engineer could use his own tradeskills to build from scratch. Don't make them available in the shops, set things up so that you have to find them or build them. The items themselves could then be equipped in HUD, deck or util slots to add a buff to particular skills. Finally, a toolkit bigger than a screwdriver...

The minor combination buffs are also a nice idea, esp. for lower levels. Reminds me a little of the suppressor line for fixers - something specific to the profession, which stacks with the general buffs.

The helper bot is a similar idea, but has different connotations. For a start, if it costs money to cast people will be reluctant to use it unless they have something worthwhile to use it on. At the moment, engineer tradeskills aren't in demand enough for it to be a polular option. If you have to cancel your fighting pet to cast it, the problem gets worse. Finally, it would seem to be a choice between helperbots and minor combination buffs, as both at once would perhaps be a little much. Overall, I think I prefer the functionality of the combo buff line. However, the helperbot option would look cool...

I'm of a mind to agree with Krabbus that, for Engineers at least, a buff is preferable to a nerf. I've just started a Fixer - not reputed to be the easiest class in the world to play, but infinitely easier to handle than the Engineer. There's just so much you have to keep current with the engi. Yes, if you ingnore tradeskills entirely your life will be much simpler, but if you like the idea of building things you have a lot of skills to keep current. That would be fine if tradeskills were worth it, but right now there's not that much you can make that's in demand.

If the tradeskill designer does decide to implement either of Max's first two ideas, could we please have something that buffs Matter Creation and Time & Space. AFAIK we have no profession specific buffs to help us with these two critical areas. This alone would alleviate the tight IP squeeze that tradeskill engineers face.

Cheers,

~R~

[gnuman]

1) There are actually engineer-tools adding to tradeskills:
http://auno.org/aodb.php?t=ag&cmd=view&id=156774

http://auno.org/aodb.php?t=ag&cmd=view&id=161644

http://auno.org/aodb.php?t=ag&cmd=view&id=152271

2) Besides that, at lvl 200 the best trade-skill profession is a doctor as they can change implants themselves and ql200 implants buff tradeskills more than any buffs or items and implant shuffling is needed to do tradeskills anyway.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Noer
1) There are actually engineer-tools adding to tradeskills:
http://auno.org/aodb.php?t=ag&cmd=view&id=156774

http://auno.org/aodb.php?t=ag&cmd=view&id=161644

http://auno.org/aodb.php?t=ag&cmd=view&id=152271

Agreed, but lets look at 'availiability' of these items

S.T.M - Reported to be dropped by TIM in Foremans office. Drop isnt guaranteed, plus that dungeon is camped anyway, plus high level needed to even consider going there

Crystal - I've posted both on the Engineers board and Virrals boards regarding this and no one has reported to have found one.

NCU - dropped by a specific (unique?) MOB. High level needed to attempt this, dont know if the drop is guaranteed.

So none of these are actually a solution. We need a class-wide fix, not another item that only high levels and those in uber guilds can get hold of. Something along the lines of the Fixer NCU Hackers interface.

[Krabbus]

Originally posted by BGumble
Unbelievably silly. You want to be 'best' at a pointless and hardly implemented area of the game? and to do so we've had suggestions of everything from changing Trader skill colours to removeing buffs from them to making those buffs cause a loss on the caster like a wrangle.

The whole point of buffs is that you go get them from people.

Yes, it is, the point is to help each other with buffs. The Engineers can only be better at tradeskills when they get the traderbuffs and not equal as they are today - that's my hole point.

Because I have a hard time seeing why traders can make better weapons than engineers, but if there was a small buffline that stacks with tradersbuff and are engineer only will this balance it. The traders will still be better when selfbuffed, but engineers will be better when both are buffed fully.

The suggestions of changing the cost for traders etc was just an example to fix it (and to clear what the designproblem is) - but we can't do this now since the game is released.

[Destractor]

Originally posted by BGumble
Unbelievably silly. You want to be 'best' at a pointless and hardly implemented area of the game? and to do so we've had suggestions of everything from changing Trader skill colours to removeing buffs from them to making those buffs cause a loss on the caster like a wrangle.

The whole point of buffs is that you go get them from people.

One of the problems of engineers is that we have no buffs (well ep doesn't count) that help other professions.

The only reason people come to us is to get things made. As it is traders are better at this, and the idea that someone comes to you for help, but you have to find someone else to buff you to help the first person is getting a bit of a long chain.

(Though if there is a prof who are experienced in buff begging we are it)


It looks like trade skills are being developed now, the armour thing is a step in the right direction (though PPEs are stupidly rare)

We are not a combat class, and there seem to be no plans on making bots reasonable for team missions. So we are aiming to kick FC into helping us in the ones area they might consider, trade skills.

I like the idea of a upgradeable trade skill enhancing device like the fixers hacker interface. (But please don't put it in the traders shop)

[Maximilian]

doh, no Funcom's around - or?

Just to remind all potential flamers - I don't want anybody to be nerfed (Adv was/is my main character).

Originally posted by BGumble

The whole point of buffs is that you go get them from people.

Nope, not for Traders and Metas!

I don't mind asking for buffs - I even would pay for them (reasonable prices) but two classes do NOT rely on any other class (besides the universal treatment and stat buffs). This is not compensated by any known weakness (to my knowledge).

Noer, a pleasure to see you here.

Originally posted by Noer

2) Besides that, at lvl 200 the best trade-skill profession is a doctor as they can change implants themselves and ql200 implants buff tradeskills more than any buffs or items and implant shuffling is needed to do tradeskills anyway.

-> Valid point, but to get close to 1000 which you need for ql200 armour or eggs you need to have a trader around, or be a trader.

-> Warlock/Noer: ermmm. How to start (looks around ashamed):

I am pretty sure, that I got one of the Adapted Notum Crystal - E=MC^2 (~ql60) and even some Crystal, most probabely a Giraldi one (ouch, ouch, don't hit that hard). I recall reading something about Engineer and checked the requirements. Melee energy and 1 blunt: 20/12 point skills. To expensive for the (tiny) benfit (looks more like a Adv or Enf item from the requirements).

I'll check my inventory and bank tonight and will post tomorrow.

So long,

Max(imilian)