Role of the NT

[hudnik]

a 220 isnt anything close to top DD mate, and yes, having NO alpah at all in pvp sucks a LOT.

[Darkbane]

Well, I doubt NTs are ever going to be an alpha type PvP profession... but if they had something like this...

NT PvP Nano : An area effect nano that lowers (by a very large amount) Shield<type>AC and MaxReflected<type>Dmg for a short time (say 10s).

Then at least it'd perhaps maybe give us a role again...


And the sort of thing I had in mind for nuke chains...

Cyberdeck Nuke Chain Example

Nuke A
Nuke B
Nuke C
Nuke D

Nuke A is a normal nuke it does Hit Target <damage> and CastNano Target Affected By Nuke A.

Nuke B is a chained nuke that does [i]Hit Target <damage>, CastNano Target Affected By Nuke B and if target has Affected By Nuke A running, does CastNano Target Nuke B/A Bonus.

Nuke C is a chained nuke that does [i]Hit Target <damage>, CastNano Target Affected By Nuke C and if target has Affected By Nuke A running, does CastNano Target Nuke C/A Bonus.

Nuke D is a chained nuke that does Hit Target <damage>, CastNano Target Affected By Nuke D, if target has Affected By Nuke B running, does CastNano Target Nuke D/B Bonus and if target has Affected By Nuke C running, does CastNano Target Nuke D/C Bonus.

Cast times should cap at 1.5/1.5 on all these nukes.

The Affected By Nuke X nanos should have a duration of 5 seconds.

The Nuke X/Y Bonus nanos should have a variety of short term effects: stuns, extra damage, debuffs etc. Most should also have a detaunt effect.

[Bigeio]

I'm glad to hear some positive feed back (for the most part). Sil, thanks for listening to us. I think that we can make some trade offs here to make us more desirable in teams.

NT's would not have to be the best dmg dealer (although some work needs to be done in this area, imo.), but maybe enhance the dmg done by the team due to nano buffs. Because NT's are the Masters of nano-technology, I think we should effect running nano's just by our presense. When we are in a team, we could increase the ability of another members running nanos. For example, if a fixer has a HoT running, with an NT in the team, it heals better than without the NT. Same thing for a Doc in the team. With an NT in the team, dmg buffs are better, reflects reflect more, etc. This would not make the NT the ubah end all dmg dealers, this would make us desirable for a team.

I think that our dmg nanos need to scale with the required abilility, i.e. higher MC increased dmg, etc.

I think also, that the cybor deck should be converted into a weapon with nanos to change the dmg type and could be used while casting nanos. I would think that as an NT we would have figured out how to get dmg out of the deck. Not great amounts of dmg, but something to add to the dmg being done. Also, make it work off of our nano pool and be based off of NanoC init.

Also, as an NT, I would think that we know that we are squishy, and therefor have a better defensive line of nano's. How about a short term massive evade buff? Something that would last a few seconds to give the tank time to get agg back or let us run away. It could be like the mob sees multiple NTs and can't figure out which is the real one. I mentioned this in another thread, how about a reverse reflect? The nano would encircle the mob and reflect 75-100% of all dmg from the mob back to the mob. An NT may not be able to solo the mob, but he should be able to make him stop attacking or be able to evade the hits for a bit.

I think that the roots/calms need to work better. Once again, better nano ability, the better chance the root/calm is going to land. The nano resist would need to be overcome.

I think ppl are thinking that NT's have to be the great dmg dealers from the sky, but if the devs worked it right, we would not have to do more dmg, but enhance the dmg being done.

You could work something into the story line that Izzy was the first RK person to go to SL. He could have figured that that someplace other than RK existed, found a way to get there, moved his writings to SL and continued to study the effects of nano technology in SL. Unfortunately, this leads us to an NT only type quest, but I'm just trying to give an idea for a story line.

Now for the tough question, what time frame are we talking about getting the work out to the NT's? I'm just looking for something that someone will be accountable for. "Sometime in the future..." is not a commitment. Sil, you stated no flames for this thread from the NT community, how about a commitment from the devs on their part to develop a project plan and meet the delivery date?

Thanks for your time!

One last thing, to help reestablish the harmony between the player base and the devs/FC, would you at least give us the benefit of the doubt and be honest with us? Give straight answers to direct questions? I personally would rather have you say, "Dmg will be adjusted, but not to what you want, but we are working on other areas that we think that NT's will be happy with in the next patch or two" instead of "something is in the works for the future." Honesty goes a long way. I may not be happy with what you tell me, but at least I know you heard me.

Once again, thanks

[Steveo]

So, after a few days of this thread being around and digesting it more and more day by day and thinking more and more about what has been written that this is going to lead to a significant problem....

"We see NTs as being a profession built around nano based damage that can do competitive damage at the higher end of the damage scales, with a limited defensive toolset and being far more effective in team situations then solo. The defensive abilities of an NT should be more about escaping or surviving agro if the tank slips up then tanking themselves."

In reading this now, the only thought that really strikes me is.. what is the point of being an nt? Competitive damage and a weak toolset? If this is the overall vision of the nt from fc's perspective, then why be one? Why not be a prof with high damage and a great defensive toolset?

Something is very very wrong here imo, what do you guys/gals/troxes think? Sillirion?

[Darkbane]

In reading this now, the only thought that really strikes me is.. what is the point of being an nt? Competitive damage and a weak toolset? If this is the overall vision of the nt from fc's perspective, then why be one? Why not be a prof with high damage and a great defensive toolset?

Something is very very wrong here imo, what do you guys/gals/troxes think? Sillirion?

I think the original quote sums up pretty well what an NT was pre-SL... so I've no problems as such with it. Standard soloing went something like nuke/shoot/nuke/shoot/eep... calm... heal, recharge... nuke/shoot/nuke...

Now, given SL coils and MOBs regen rates when calmed, that won't work in SL. So whilst I expect whatever is added to give us a chance of soloing, it does seem likely the focus will be on the NT in a team...

Which leads to the issue of what an NT can bring to a team.

Damage Dealing and Damage Mitigation would seem to be our main roles, so the combination of those needs to be sufficient to make the NT desirable in a team. Clearly at the current time, both rather lack in the high end game (there are some issues in the low end game too, the relative worthlessness of the spec 1/2 cyberdeck nukes for example...)

So we'll see what is proposed...

[Delerium]

So we'll see what is proposed...

What I'm currently most interested is when that is.
Until that happens we have no idea when or where we are headed, although any information is good information.

Edit: Yes I understand that that information won't be released until you are good and ready Silli, but atm. this is still a "empty" promise with nothing substantial to back it up.

[corinthians]

I think the original quote sums up pretty well what an NT was pre-SL... so I've no problems as such with it. Standard soloing went something like nuke/shoot/nuke/shoot/eep... calm... heal, recharge... nuke/shoot/nuke...

Yea, let's not go there, because we all know that there was something seriously wrong with the profession pre-SL, hence the proclamation that NT's would be the #1 damage dealer, WITHOUT A WEAPON NO LESS.

I'm not interested in being what we were pre-SL, which was just marginally better off than we were post-SL, mainly because Kel's was good in pvp.

I want to see people making NT alts because zOMG UBER, not because zOMG INGOTS.

[Crysantimum]

With that in mind do I not find it strage that those that create NTs avoid using the supertool by kiting would like other abilities on top of this.

(Where this is pointing at AoE abilities)

Just thought that some would react to my use of non-kiting NTs as positive regarding community relations.

AoE and also meaning kiting got very limited uses. Some point out, and rightly so, how powerful ability this is. Except that it is so limited. Those pointing out how powerful AoE is, are using mostly Elysium and Inferno as proof for AoE being overpowered. Perhaps it other think differently about it, but this is my impression. AoE lost much of the effect in pvp after SL, calming lost much of the effect, layers gained some but also lost alot of effect at higher levels.

So it is more obvious when NT use a tool that is slightly more efficient than others (No, not improved, just not getting worse effect compared to pre-SL) and this is called very powerful because of a very few selected situations. Probably because of the problems it has caused more than the actual "power".

Imagine if balancing powers should be done with such limited situations for all professions...healing, HoT, FA, AS...And on top of this will the abilities create marauding mobs, ganking and behaviour as close to harrasment of the user as I can imagine harrasment to be.



Why do I mention AoE again? People use AoE as some sort of excuse that the NT is in fine balance with a very selective use of information and perspectives. I just find it very unfair and unrational.

If it should be used as excuse to keep things as they are, then let it be useful in most situations without causing huge problems for others and the NT.



No matter the details about my own NT dream, do I see the NT as a nano using soldier. To make the NT that is it a few things that I think could be done for the SL NTs:

1. Alphas: Some varied alphas that can be uploaded to the cyberdeck. The uploading being done with very long casting time, something like MP creation weapons to ensure that the same NT wont change during one mob.
-Many equal DoTs (mostly for boss/raid encounters) with many nano-lines to ensure that multiple NTs have any effects without overwriting each other's DoTs.
-Expensive but big damage direct damage (FA) with added taunt.
-Slow AoE with huge taunt.

2. Defence: Simply reflect like soldiers got. Requirement being Cyberdeck to avoid reflect along with full weapon damage. This would also make Cyberdeck having a distinctive value other than the visual and the dream of the technomage. The numbers of this example would not be useful without some added alphas (or general damage) and alphas are needed anyway so... The reflects are weaker than soldiers but as described here also more flexible (100% of the time).
-30%reflect that subtracts 20% of the damage output of the NT.
-45%reflect that subtracts 30% of the damage output of the NT.
-65%reflect that subtracts 45% of the damage output of the NT.

Together should 1 and 2 be enough to give the NT the same damage as a soldier along with 65% reflect. But the NT can decide that the damage is more important than survival and go with no reflect and full damage. That way can everyone get their dream and fair share.

I do not expect something like this. The topic is about roles and with such abilities would the nano-soldier role be sorted out to some extent.

(Perhaps been too much out in the sun today)

[Crysantimum]

I want to see people making NT alts because zOMG UBER, not because zOMG INGOTS.

At least not the last part

[Darkbane]

Yea, let's not go there, because we all know that there was something seriously wrong with the profession pre-SL, hence the proclamation that NT's would be the #1 damage dealer, WITHOUT A WEAPON NO LESS.

I'm not interested in being what we were pre-SL, which was just marginally better off than we were post-SL, mainly because Kel's was good in pvp.

I want to see people making NT alts because zOMG UBER, not because zOMG INGOTS.

I can't say I recall there being huge amounts wrong with NTs pre-SL... lack of new nanos lowering our relative damage output perhaps... but NTs were quite powerful on RK (still are somewhat, though other professions are definitely more powerful now...)

But we're all agreed that post-SL, the vision for the NT was a) 1-dimensional, and b) basically not delivered on. And whilst most other professions have continued to grow, NTs pretty much haven't. So saying we were only marginally better pre-SL than post-SL doesn't feel right to me. On RK I feel generally no better or worse... able to reach my pre-SL peak earlier perhaps... though level locks hinder us even there.

But we're really talking about the NT in Shadowlands itself... where there is no comparison... being able to kite in a few (rediculously overpopulated) spots is hardly a fair trade for being owned by green MOBs which others eat for breakfast.

I don't (particularly) want to be uber... but uberer would be nice

[Steveo]

Damage Dealing and Damage Mitigation would seem to be our main roles, so the combination of those needs to be sufficient to make the NT desirable in a team.

It would seem that those are what we here on the forums see as our strengths however those are not stated as FC's vision of us, what I'm seeing in the statement is decent damage,weak defense. It was also stated pretty clearly that we aren't going to be the top of the tree and that we wouldn't be talking about damage hierarchy anymore.

What we have repeatedly said is that there needs to be a balance between defense and offense in a fighting situation. If we have a weak defensive toolset I would expect us to have a strong damage toolset. Seeing words like "competitive" to describe our damage output doesn't sound like our heads will be even peaking above the crowd (hello now).

What I'm getting at is that this vision of the nt doesn't seem to be heading anywhere, there will be no point rolling an nt (besides ingot farming of course, our strong point) if this vision comes to fruition.

The role of the NT (imo)

Strong (not competitive) damage, weak defense. Our TOOL is supposed to be damage. Varied and strong damage. We don't get evades,heals,debuffs, blah blah blah. We are supposed to get damage, otherwise there is no point in being a damage dealer, although I'm guessing that we may be losing that title officially now as well, which is just really the last nail in the coffin since we've lost that title among the playerbase for a long time.

Something to think about

Why would someone want to roll an nt if this is what we are described as? When there are so many other outperforming professions out there, we aren't going to have a shot. NT's need to have a strength, I understand the reasoning behind not giving us one is probably to not make a promise that you can't keep, but without a clear strength there isn't a reason to choose this profession.


p.s. please don't make ingot farming our strength

[Bigeio]

FYI - the last time Silirrion responded was 4 days ago about 18 minutes after a potentially negative comment was posted. If you go back and reread it, it sounds like any negative comment will not be tolerated, i.e. Don't rock the boat too much.

Silirrion, I get the impression that you are acknowledging there are short comings in the NT profession, this is great because NT's already know this and it shows that someone is being honest from the devs about it.

I do not believe that anything here is new. Most of everything can be found on a long closed threat and even some still open threads. The problems have not changed, just the NT's trying to make a difference in what we are and hope to become.

Now having said that, I think that the ball is in your court. There is not much that we can say or maybe contribute until we can get some type of feedback from you. Maybe that way, we can give some ideas on what we hear. Rigth now, we hear nothing, so our imaginations have free reign to wonder of how we are going to get the "short end of the stick". There are a lot of posts with some good ideas, surely a few are worthy of consideration.

[Triskweline]

The role of the NT (imo)

Strong (not competitive) damage, weak defense. Our TOOL is supposed to be damage. Varied and strong damage. We don't get evades,heals,debuffs, blah blah blah. We are supposed to get damage, otherwise there is no point in being a damage dealer, although I'm guessing that we may be losing that title officially now as well, which is just really the last nail in the coffin since we've lost that title among the playerbase for a long time.

This is what everyone seems to think NTs should be and were meant to be, but I have to disagree here. I always saw the NT as the 'smart' profession; the one who had to use his wits in order to defeat his enemies. Plain damage is boring and not in line with any kind of wizard/mage/sorcerer class in any kind of RPG I've ever heard of.

I think we need our toolset back, but not necessarily every bit of it. The main thing we need, IMO, is our range advantage. Give us back our roots, give us back our range advantage--at the very least a meter or two more than gun users and all mobs. How hard is that to do? It's so obviously necessary for our survival. Let us root and nuke and kite with single and aoe nukes, in pvp and in pvm. Give us superior range for our perks and our nukes and our roots. Let us use our wits. Leave the damage focus to the shades. If we can root and calm we don't need better layers, evades or nullity, and we have a profession that's a lot more fun to play. 111111111111111111111111111 button mashing, damage only nuking is boring.

[Glarawyn]

To make NT worth a team's time, our damage output isn't going to have to be competitve to the higher end of the damage scale.. its going to have to be like the highest damage.. I don't think many understand that If you have a 219 NT and a 210 Adventure both LFT, and there's one spot left in that Tuinisk spot.. they're going to take the 210 Adventure every time..

Why do you interpret competitive as a negative thing? Being in a competitive position means (to me anyway) that you have a chance at being "the best" assuming you do everything right, and a ray of luck shines your way. Competitive means you can compete for the top spot, but like any competition, you're not guaranteed the top spot.

As for Tuinsk spot...the way the current game is yes, an Adventurer will be prefferable to a NT. But if say, the NTs crowd control abilites were restored, you would have a better chance. So calms that work in Shadowlands, or new crowd control abilities like a nuke that stuns and confuses (does negitive taunt) on the target, but doesn't do alot of damage.

Damage Dealing and Damage Mitigation would seem to be our main roles, so the combination of those needs to be sufficient to make the NT desirable in a team. Clearly at the current time, both rather lack in the high end game

I agree. It's pretty sad when an Adventurer can out calm a NT, and yet Adventurers do have much better crowd control than NTs in Shadowlands. (Friend of the Wild + Range Increaser is great for those Inferno Dynas.) When team missions were all the rage, people would look for a calmer...NT, Trader, Crat, now days nobody looks for a NT for crowd control. They just can't do it.

Being the "masters of nano technology," one would think that NTs would have the most creative methods of damage mitigation. Calms and blinds are well covered by Crats/Traders and Engineers...how about something new. Nanos that stun instead of calm for example, or anti nullity sphere, a nano that surrounds the target and reflects all their damage back at them instead of protecting the NT.

Or just make NT calms work again...heh.

[Hydrad]

This is what everyone seems to think NTs should be and were meant to be, but I have to disagree here. I always saw the NT as the 'smart' profession; the one who had to use his wits in order to defeat his enemies. Plain damage is boring and not in line with any kind of wizard/mage/sorcerer class in any kind of RPG I've ever heard of.

I think we need our toolset back, but not necessarily every bit of it. The main thing we need, IMO, is our range advantage. Give us back our roots, give us back our range advantage--at the very least a meter or two more than gun users and all mobs. How hard is that to do? It's so obviously necessary for our survival. Let us root and nuke and kite with single and aoe nukes, in pvp and in pvm. Give us superior range for our perks and our nukes and our roots. Let us use our wits. Leave the damage focus to the shades. If we can root and calm we don't need better layers, evades or nullity, and we have a profession that's a lot more fun to play. 111111111111111111111111111 button mashing, damage only nuking is boring.

But the funny part about this dream is when roots fails, i have to wait 5 seconds till i can do something else.

by the time that happens am comboed 2k dmg by someone or something..

I like your statement about a NT beeing more the smart profession, but i was thinking personally something else.

I don't know more the baldursgate approach, us able to cast more nanos at once , like a combo, maybe a nuke with root. But we have to combine them our self with certain skills. (was an example)

I also wonder why a NT can't critical hit with his nano dmg, i mean we can fumble but we can't crit..why?

I'd also like to see something more happening with the word nano..i think a NT should be able to drain nano not trader, and also for the whole group. I also think we should be able to convert our nano in a shield, like an absorber.

Every prof has something, i feel NT has nothing besides kiting.

[Glarawyn]

I don't know more the baldursgate approach, us able to cast more nanos at once , like a combo, maybe a nuke with root. But we have to combine them our self with certain skills. (was an example)

I haven't played Baldur's Gate for a long time, but I don't recall being able to do mutiple spells at once. The approach of the game was that the mages had to prepare their spells ahead of time, and once they had used that prepared spell, they could not use it again until they had rested. You could however pause the game and queue up actions, and once unpaused your mage would cast spells in quick succession.

The closest thing to that in AO (in my opinion) is the Adventurer line of instant heals. 0.01s attack and recharge, but when executed you get the hostile cool down nano in your NCU, and can't use a nano from that line again until the cooldown period is over. Applying the same setup to a line of NT Cyberdeck nukes could be interesting, and give NTs an alpha strike. I posted it as a suggestion under Ideas Factory some time ago. The NT would run a "buff nano" that allocated some of their nano bot pool to these nukes. The "buff nano" would pre-program this part of the nano bot pool for instant use as these special nukes, but the cost would be a debuff to the NTs nano pool, or a constant nano DoT...or something along those lines. Anyway...

[Keldros]

I don't know more the baldursgate approach, us able to cast more nanos at once , like a combo, maybe a nuke with root. But we have to combine them our self with certain skills.

We actually had this to some extent in the old RK nanos:

Resonance blast = nuke + detaunt
IEF = nuke plus fire AC debuff
Crown of Frost = nuke plus nanoskill debuff

Sadly none of these lines were extended in either SL or AI.

It would be nice to have (for instance) nuke + nano resist debuff, or nanos similar to IEF with different damage/AC types and damage output.

The NT would run a "buff nano" that allocated some of their nano bot pool to these nukes. The "buff nano" would pre-program this part of the nano bot pool for instant use as these special nukes, but the cost would be a debuff to the NTs nano pool, or a constant nano DoT...or something along those lines.

Don't forget Bane of the Challenger enables a special attack for a brief period. Add a "selfprofession = nanotechnician" req, then give that special attack a nano cost like most MA attacks have, and you could achieve the same results you want.

[Hydrad]

Glarawyn , something like that is exactly what i meant. With 1 nano us able to cast 3 things, like a nuke, root and maybe a stun. Something for pvp.

Of cource it has to have a recharge time of 30 mins or something, but we need stuff like that or else the word Technician has no meaning for us.

Resonance blast this is a good nano, the rest you mentioned is crap imo.

[Mastablasta]

30 min recharge time is not justifiable in a world where other classes do 50k dmg in specials alone in a few seconds...

[Mirmydia]

30 min recharge time is not justifiable in a world where other classes do 50k dmg in specials alone in a few seconds...

agreed, that would not make us 'competitive (TM)'