Role of the NT

**Hydrad** · Mar 5th, 2005, 18:41:23

Originally Posted by Enlightenment

Now wouldn't it be great if NS weren't so darn expensive, seriously though as sombedody who's pretty new to the game, what's the point of playing a proffession if your only intended defensive tool is an uber rare, uber expensive drop?

How about putting NS 1 AND 2 within the reach of a normal player, possibly quest items or something?

hey, i am new, and i have NS 2 bought it for 75 mil, currentyl have 170 mil left.

money is no big deal for a NT ...teams are!

**hudnik** · Mar 5th, 2005, 18:48:08

still looking for the long gone alpha here, anyone saw an alpha? shes nice, well trained, and is cuddly and nice,but dont feed her after midnight pls!

*goes on looking for the pvp capacity*

ah btw, sometimes shes rnning with the other doggy, whats his name? ah yes, "range advantage" but he is also missing

damn pets.

**Ramillis** · Mar 5th, 2005, 18:59:18

An alpha would be quite useful. How about (a mish-mash of other people's ideas but NM) treating the cyberdeck as a ranged weapon with nano programming as an attack skill, nano resist as a defensive skill and nano init as speed skill. Make it slow and/or crappy damage but put some special on there requiring nano programming which does ok damage? Or just let us dual-wield ranged weapons with the deck to we can put on a CDR or something.

Edit: Or, they could allow us to dual-wield with only one other weapon - a new range of staves which could have different effects (I'm thinking something similar to Galen's Techno-Mage staff in Babylon 5/Excalibur). One could work like a weapon (as above "Battle-Mage's Staff"), one could enhance nano abilities (+ to nano skills, nano init and nanopool, "Wizard's Staff"), etc. Hey, they could even be summoned like the MP ones and could use the same models - they got our warps, after all.

**corinthians** · Mar 6th, 2005, 05:03:06

Why would anyone choose an NT for a team with that description for our profession? Being competitive with the high end damage only means that the excuse "well we're looking for a dd" will change to "well there are a bunch of other dd that are lfg too and they can heal/tank/xp perk".

Most other professions have a niche, or a certain something that makes people say "yea grab them". From the looks of that description, I don't have very high hopes.

**Avarael** · Mar 6th, 2005, 06:19:07

Originally Posted by Silirrion

"We see NTs as being a profession built around nano based damage that can do competitive damage at the higher end of the damage scales, with a limited defensive toolset and being far more effective in team situations then solo. The defensive abilities of an NT should be more about escaping or surviving agro if the tank slips up then tanking themselves."

First off, thank you Silirrion (and by extension the devs who wrote that vision) - it's a shame we had to almost riot to get something approaching constructive communication from Funcom, but we got there in the end. If we can get this going both ways on a frequent and rgular basis, I suspect we'll all be a lot happier.

Breaking the quote down however:

"We see NTs as being a profession built around nano based damage..."
Ok: Nukes are our primary tools, weapons and everything else are a secondary toolset. This is as it always has been - and currently is, IMO.

"...that can do competitive damage at the higher end of the damage scales..."

It's probably my nasty, cynical and su****ious mind, but the word "competitive" rings alarm bells. It's one of those words that's been corrupted by doublespeak to mean nothing - even though it was probably a whore to begin with - and certainly doesn't mean best. In fact, in some contexts - notably "competitive salary" - it can even mean "average". The rest of the quote is encouraging, since even with the new FC policy of vagueness I can't see how it can excuse us being in anything other than the top quarter of the professions when it comes to damage dealing.

"...far more effective in team situations then solo"

Already the case - we do far better with a healer or a tank around to keep us alive. But since you can say this of all professions, I have to wonder why this remark is in the vision? Perhaps to justify creating or keeping crippling gaps in our toolset?

"The defensive abilities of an NT should be more about escaping or surviving agro if the tank slips up then tanking themselves"
Our defensive abilities are already firmly in the bracket indicated by this quote - we have Nullity, which is the preferred tool for surviving aggro flickers. Layers won't absorb more than a third of a hit from most mobs worth fighting past 180, evades and healing capacity are the worst ingame as far as I know and our principal defence is very definitely not being the mob's target - or being out of range if we are.

My concern, is that this statement could, in a month or two, be used to justify making only minor changes to the profession - or even no changes at all. We already meet a large chunk of the vision as stated, after all.

The other concern is simpler: Why should a team want a Nanotech? As I see it, a character's value to a team breaks down into four categories:

Tanking ability: Be it by evades, shields or raw hitpoints, this is the character's ability to hold aggro and soak damage. Nullity sphere gives us a small "emergency use only" capability in this area, but we certainly aren't tanks by design. In fact, since we score poorly on the major areas - evades and hitpoints - we might actually be the worst profession for tanking in the game.

Healing capability: How rapidly a character can regenerate hps, both for itself and others. Unless I'm much mistaken we are the worst at this, with a dark blue first aid skill and nothing else.

Crowd Control: As pure calming goes, we rank third in this - the crats are way out in front (as they should be) and Traders are marginally ahead. Yet I routinely run into people who aren't aware that an NT can calm. Why? Because, at least in SL, our calms are completely unreliable against most mobs that are fought in teams. The same with AI - calming barely seems used there - and bosses, a lot of whom are flat out immune.

Damage: The final factor - and not always the most important one. A team needs enough damage to get the mobs dead before the healing, tanking and calming fail. More is nice - allowing for faster kills and better probability of survival, but not essential.

So...where should we be? Our healing is probably the worst in the game, as is our tanking. Our calming is there, but has serious issues, especially in Shadowlands...where should our damage be so that we're desirable to teams with all this taken into account?

Answer: The best - or so close to it as makes no odds. I know, I know - Sil doesn't want to say it, but denial doesn't alter the facts. Unless we're seriously outdamaging those with better tanking and the healing (ie, just about everyone else) , why should any team bother with us for more than a thirty second PNH/IOR-and-kick-the-gimp session?

**Hydrad** · Mar 6th, 2005, 18:04:32

One question that keeps bugging me.

whats the point of izgmmiers last joke? (word)

can you say what the developers thought? i mean describe the role of the nuke

cheerds.

**Jaesic** · Mar 6th, 2005, 20:34:39

Originally Posted by Hydrad

One question that keeps bugging me.

whats the point of izgmmiers last joke? (word)

can you say what the developers thought? i mean describe the role of the nuke

cheerds.

Keep in mind that this is a nuke that was available in the early days when range was not capped at 40 meters and PvP damage did not work as it does now. Like many of our 'high damage' nukes from the original lines, it has a high attk time... making it useful as a 'pulling' nuke. Without range caps, the moderate-long recharge wasn't quite so detrimental because your target had to take much longer to close range with you. And a PvP target would have been significantly damaged by it if not killed outright (everyone had much lower hp totals in those days too).

I've heard stories that mobs used to chain cast this at players too, but I missed that fun.

**Hydrad** · Mar 6th, 2005, 21:52:53

Originally Posted by Jaesic

Keep in mind that this is a nuke that was available in the early days when range was not capped at 40 meters and PvP damage did not work as it does now. Like many of our 'high damage' nukes from the original lines, it has a high attk time... making it useful as a 'pulling' nuke. Without range caps, the moderate-long recharge wasn't quite so detrimental because your target had to take much longer to close range with you. And a PvP target would have been significantly damaged by it if not killed outright (everyone had much lower hp totals in those days too).

I've heard stories that mobs used to chain cast this at players too, but I missed that fun.

you see i thought the same, i assumed at least that was the idea. But i asked my org about it and they said before it was crap, and now it's crap.

**Sajkan** · Mar 6th, 2005, 22:43:53

It is crap it was crap it will always be crap

I never used last word for pulling

**Jaesic** · Mar 6th, 2005, 23:49:42

Originally Posted by Hydrad

you see i thought the same, i assumed at least that was the idea. But i asked my org about it and they said before it was crap, and now it's crap.

And how many of the people who told you it was crap actually used it before range was capped at 40 meters (or have a grasp on the difference between current game mechanics and those at release)?

In the period of time that most people have played the game, yes it has no practical value. But you didn't ask what its value is now or during the last couple years, you asked what the developers intended. If you're just looking for something to insult developers for, then at least be honest about it and don't try to hide it behind a question that asks something else.

Originally Posted by _Delphius_

I never used last word for pulling

I did and it wasn't even pre-range nerf. Mezz target... ILW... ILW... run away until recharge ended... mezz target... repeat as needed. Worked just fine before mezz was nerfed (both level checks and two hit factor) and heal delta during mezz made it ineffective and hp totals got so high that it took days to kill something with the technique.

Maybe a couple of the seriously old-timers will comment on how it worked in PvP (I've heard the stories but I'm too lazy to dig them up in good thread necromancer style).

**Crysantimum** · Mar 7th, 2005, 00:03:32

Originally Posted by Silirrion

There is no denying that certain professions do have good defensive abilities alongside good offensive abilities, and that is another balance issue outside of NTs but does reflect on the decisions for sure...we are certainly not blind to that consideration

I don't know exactly what you mean in your first sentence there, so not certain if I should agree or not, but the abilities of other professions will influence the average abilities and that way also indicate where on a weak and a strong scale the profession should be compared to the average.

...unless we all should agree that life is not fair

Some end up with doing alot of work with little reward, while some simply is born and is having more practical rewards from that.

Not sure I would want such an agreement within AO or a game.

Originally Posted by Silirrion

However as it says above we do not see the NT as being a profession that excels at soloing, all professions should be able to solo to an extent but some will always be better then others and we don't see NTs as ever being in the category of professions that would be deemed very good at soloing...but it is a goal to make them more worthwhile members of a team in more situations for sure.

Silirrion, you mentioned earlier that the NT got abilities that some feel is very powerful (Kiting versus un-nerf). So it is about playstyle and priorities. Many deem kiting quite antisocial, destructive for others under some circumstances, opening for griefing and opened for griefing. Kiting as the supertool of the profession is probably a big change for those that leveled to L200 on RK as good crowd control, the doctor's second best friend by giving nano regeneration (the best friend being the tank), ...and many other things depending on whom you ask.

With that in mind do I not find it strage that those that create NTs avoid using the supertool by kiting would like other abilities on top of this. While others doesn't feel quite happy about abilities not being as valuable, effective/updated anymore without some compensations about the the losses.

But it is a playstyle problem, both for FC and the NT I think. For FC would it be a bad idea to point at activities that create bad in-game behaviour as something ment for a profession. Why do I mention this? Because I agree that it is a playstyle choice, a choice the nt got. But a choice where those NTs wanting added abilities instead of sticking with the supertool, is on the "good side" when it comes to community relations

(I know that it isn't always that kiting creates problems, but kiting is without doubt creating more. It is still the perspective of those experiencing the great leap of abilities without any new things to fill the gap, either defensive or really offensive. Yes, I know you know.)

I guess this is also a perspective behind the Un-nerf traded for the kiting ability question?

Some, back in the days, created NTs because of the the things promised, or "promised". Others went NT to be the soft but powerful individuals. Powerful in the sense that they got abilities in damage that ended up labeled as nuking. Some want to be the technomage that scorns weaponry and got the image of a person having mind over matter as ideal, or rather mind creating matter

Since the NT (or professions in AO in general) doesn't have many choices within a profession that excludes other options, will it be hard to make the various images of the NT anything but incredible unless disapointing someone.

The Perks could be the way to go, except that perks mostly complements each other and doesn't often make very tough choices.

If there were choices that excluded abilities just as they gave abilities, could FC give nearly everyone what they wanted without making the flavour of the month....and the rest of the year.

A very nice thread

**Mastablasta** · Mar 7th, 2005, 00:10:15

ILW could instakill in PVP years ago... when NR was broken and NTs had 80m range. When that was fixed it became useles. It was useful 3+ years ago, now it's just shopfood. I have casted it for a laugh, never for damage.

**Avarael** · Mar 7th, 2005, 07:05:59

Thre was also a time when NT mobs in missions would insta-cast ILW. Since most players at the time had a lot less hps, that usually meant insta-killing the tank. But, thanks to a long cast time and the range cap, it's got no practical use these days

**Mastablasta** · Mar 7th, 2005, 07:55:16

Hm I don't remember them insta-casting it, but they did cast it, and would sometimes hit for the heavy 8k

evil when trox enfs and 10k hp was something not easily reached ;p

This thread has gone off topic though... stickying and maybe closing if offtopic continues ;P

**Animosity** · Mar 7th, 2005, 17:52:33

I like having NT's in my team::: AKA BATTERIES.

I think this is one thing that is often overlooked, but is loved by heavy casters.

The problem i see is that NT's have a few exceptional skills no one else has, such as AOE nuke. Thats pretty cool, and has its specialized uses. Not to mention the glove that makes girls go giddy.

But really, what is there left in the mechanics of the game that could be added to NT without more duplication of other professions?

I brainstormed for a while to get my own decisions on this, and really could not find anything.

I think of my NTs (yes i have two) as batteries, blinders, calmers, and solo err well you know.

Ani.

**Darkbane** · Mar 7th, 2005, 19:24:38

Except once others get up to their fastest nano delta tick, an NTs nano-regen capability is meaningless... even for the NT.

The trouble is, we have 14 professions all looking for their unique selling point when there are only really 4 fundamental roles - damage absorber (tank), damage repairer (healer), damage mitigator (mezzer) and damage dealer. Sure, you can mix and match to some extent... and there are a few variations on a theme (charms being both damage mitigation and damage dealing for example).

Clearly NTs aren't intended to be damage absorbers or damage repairers, so that leaves two roles in which we can play. If we aren't the best hands-down damage dealers then we need passable damage mitigation. Our blinds/evades help in team situations (but are useless solo due to our inherent evades), roots can help when the MOB has short range attacks only and there is room to maneuver (ie of limited use in missions and in Shadowlands) and mezz/stun is useful solo and teamed when it lands. Layers are the only other generally useful form of damage mitigation we have, and that is limited in the high end game too.

It'd make sense for better (though shorter) calms/stuns and bigger (though again, much shorter) layers. Blinds have issues with balance (as they affect others as much, if not in fact more-so than the NT) and are probably not a good candidate for significant improvement (which is what would be needed on them). And whilst these new mezz/stun nanos shouldn't wipe the hate list, they should have a built in de-taunt.

The other issue of damage mitigation, is that if we are doing that, we're not dealing damage. Proc'd nukes could help there (and my previously mentioned nuke chain idea), but a degree of trade-off is always desireable, so effects from nukes should be les than stand-alone nanos.

Hopefully if we get even a little of that, it'll help a lot... though really we need most of it at the high end at least. Let's see what Big Z has planned

**Maddiganed** · Mar 8th, 2005, 10:23:17

I have read nice summaries concerning NT issues...

NT don't ask to be healers/tanks.. they just want to be effective in the purpose Fc gave them : very good (best?) damage dealer with some crowd control abilities and so far, except for the 69 NTs who have reached enlightment (aka 220 NTs), we are not the top high DDs.

I have very good hopes for next big patch (after the ads patch

).

Hope is all we have.

**Mastablasta** · Mar 8th, 2005, 10:41:41

Originally Posted by Maddiganed

except for the 69 NTs who have reached enlightment (aka 220 NTs), we are not the top high DDs.

News flash: Neither are we...

**Maddiganed** · Mar 8th, 2005, 11:37:19

Dang,

Give us some hope Znore, please...

**Delerium** · Mar 8th, 2005, 12:23:03

saw a funny thing yesterday. Rooted a highlevel flagget agent(217 i think) in the aftermath of a highlevel base attack. Then a omni shade attacked him. Was dead right after i had gotten off my first nuke....

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