Role of the NT

[Triskweline]

Whether or not the whole "ability to escape aggro and greatly useful to a team part" includes new layers, new and more powerful calms I can only hope, but it's what we used to have and it's what used to rock... I would be really disappointed if all we got was some bizarre dmg boost that would nudge us up a rung or two on the damage ladder...

See I think you read that little blurb with too much optimism. It's pure doublespeak; it says nothing about being greatly useful to a team. What it says is more effective in a team, which means we need healers and defensive buffs from other people, because we don't have any worthwhile ones of our own.

[Triskweline]

If you want to try and flame without being constructive by all means try, but don't expect me to just let it pass

You gave us a very carefully crafted phrase that said basically nothing. Obviously you expected some criticism, I'm just trying to help get it hammered out.

And you're right, I did completely miss that top end of the scale bit. Having played an NT for so long, I am prone to pessimism.

[Smoove]

What is the expected timeframe you see all this beeing addressed then? How long will we need to wait before we actually see some noticeable changes? And I'm not trying to be negative here i just want to get some idea of what you and the Dev's feel is acceptable, i mean is this something we're looking at waiting for another year or more or what? (Not trying to flame here but just trying to be constructive and see what you all see as an acceptable wait time for us in a civil manner). I mean i know you cant predict how long design and implementation with testing is going to take but you at least have to have some kind of idea or some goals on when you'd like to see these balances addressed. Even if its just a ballpark number, just an idea would be nice ... at least for me.

[JCarmack]

Symbolic or otherwise, as I said at the top, we are not going to get into the realms of saying any profession should be 'the best' at anything as we all know where that has lead in the past

I understand that. I'd just like to be sure that devs consider that point. If the best we can bring to a team is same as actual damage dealers but being weaker (defense speaking), it's not enought. At that point, we need effective team toolset like our calms/roots restored (killing a part of crat/trader horny side) or have the 1° place Mr damage, and only then we'll easily get into teams. But as you say, you can't state one day X or Y is Mr BFG cause the first patch changing hierarchy will leaves ashes and columns of smokes somewhere in a X or Y Community forum...

Cut a professionnal's arms and tongue (to silent him) and give him to devs, he will makes sounds if something worked seems wrong. He won't be able to do spy reports to us ^^.

[Steveo]

Sil,

I just want to say that you made my day, not because this is exactly what I wanted to hear in its description but because this kind direct feedback is exactly what we've been asking for, for so long. You being the first person to bring that to us makes you a pretty cool guy imo.

The description of the NT that you pass down is in line with what I originally understood an nt to be and really why I was so dissappointed that I didn't have. I know you have already said that you are aware of this but I would just like to point out that damage and defenses in the way FC talks about them balance each other (i.e. higher dmg/less defense for an nt) so I think our damage should be scaled with our toolset. We've all said this before but we really need to look at the specific advantages that come from different professions and see what it is that nt's excel at. (I'll post a more complete seperate thread on this later)

Anyway, thanks so much for listening to us. Please ignore the haters in this thread as I've never seen them post here before anyway and know that we really really appreciate the feedback that we've been asking for.

Edit: I think I'll leave the flaming discussion for a more apprpriate thread

[Mirmydia]

If we are to be more effective in team , we obviously need to get something HUGE to offer if we want to get teamed.
One of the probs NT have is that they can stay hours LFG because mediocre damage and nothing to 'enhance' the team.

- Inferno team lf damage dealer
- /tell : Can i join ? i'm NT 210+
- Sorry we need a damage dealer

And pls do not give us team-nanoregen of some sort, no one really needs that now... and no aura unless you fix the interrupt bugs

Otherwise i agree with Triskweline on this point. The vision that is presented to us is somewhat close to what we experience everyday (poor defense, poor solo, ...).

The vision given here is not what i signed for more than 2 years ago. I had a versatile NT, not now, not after we're fixed.

But at least we have a vision of the NT, thx for this Sil

[Steveo]

I agree with Mir, I think being a flexible team member thats actually wanted would be a huge improvement.

I originally thought of an nt as the kind of toon that did the best in a team due to the defenses issue.


What I think is the trick for FC is figuring out how to make this work in a larger scale, meaning that somehow, whatever makes us work in a team in this way, also has to give us a shot at (very slowly more than likely) soloing, and having a chance in PVP vs professions with uber damage, uber heals, uber reflects, etc. Obviously, we used to have NS which was a decent weapon when range was our advantage and could help us deal with losing our advantage for afew seconds while we tried to re-root, get out of range etc. However the NT lives in a new world now that there is no range advantage anymore so we have to find a way to survive when we can no longer escape from the hits.

Its very clear that the NT has been left behind at higher levels with the release of shadowlands, and figuring out how we fit into the new picture of life on Rubi-ka is going to be interesting.

[Volkemord]

When I started my first Nano-Tech during Beta, I had just come from UO and since then have played a myriad of other MMORPGs. Everytime I come back I pick up on the bandwagon for the most 'billy badass class', and chug it to TL5 and then stop. But I've always had my NT, and always will. What upsets me is that we're now looking at more of a 'team' oriented role. I want my solo to also be improved upon (which I know you said you are working on), and the team aspect doesn't bother me much.

The initial thought of the NT four years ago when reading the manual was a god, could die in three hits but could drop the most juggernaut of a mob in a matter of seconds from either direct damage or toolsets.

"A Nano Technician is an expert user of aggressive nanotechnology. Nano Technicians are experts at using nanotechnology to deal explosive area-of-effect damage and the types of damage they can manage is incomparable. They are also capable of using other kinds of nanotechnology and can for example warp themselves between locations. Nano-Technicians must be devoted to nanotechnology skills and as a result, physical and weapon skills will suffer."

The NT started to become that and plateaued while everyone else excelled.

I personally feel we need a healthy direct damage boost AND a more obvious toolset for our defenses.

I want to be the wizard I was in DAoC, or the Mage in UO. To slaughter the largest mobs in a team, and have a chance to do massive damage before being crushed by the mob solo.

If that's what you're telling us you're working on, you have every ounce of my support.

::: Also glad to see the devs taking an active role in the regular profession forums as of late, after investing hundreds of dollars to play the game over the past 4-5 years it's nice to feel like myself and others are being listened to.

[Abalz]

...but it is a goal to make them more worthwhile members of a team in more situations for sure.

To make NT worth a team's time, our damage output isn't going to have to be competitve to the higher end of the damage scale.. its going to have to be like the highest damage.. I don't think many understand that If you have a 219 NT and a 210 Adventure both LFT, and there's one spot left in that Tuinisk spot.. they're going to take the 210 Adventure every time.. Now if the NT is doing 'comparable damage' to the adventure.. they're still going to take the adventure.. because they are among the top damage dealers, as well as some of the best healing abilities in the game.

I think that the statement should read "Other professions will have competitive damage to the NT..." Not the other way around as it currently is.

I would happily remove the qoute in my sig and put a much happier one in it like "life is so good" if someday I would be fought over by teams b/c my profession is so sweet.

[Sajkan]

Hey Sil, thanks for the post.

I am glad to see what the Dev's and everyone else think NT's should be. The only fault I see, as pointed out by others, is competitive damage with little support nano's just won't cut it as is.

There are ways to making us better DD's rather than nerfing someone else or copy and pasting nukes.

-Make +dmg buffs and items effect our damage

-Take off the level requirement for the Ai Dot's

-Have our Starfall line and/or Ancient Matrix line tweaked so we could use it as a partial alpha (even though almost everyone 210+ evades them).

-Make the cyberdeck able to dual-wield a pistol or other weapon.

-Think about putting various nanos we have in different lines ( Like seperating our Dot's into 2 lines, or putting Layer's/Blinds in different lines than Nukes)


All these idea's have been said before, Im not be orginal by any means, but since we are now communicating properly and I know Dev's are reading as well as Sil, I know now this list of idea's will be read.

Thanks for the nice response,

Delph

[Jaesic]

It's great to see this. Thanks for taking the time to do this Silirrion.

I'd also like to see more variety to the NTs damage repertoire. This could be achieved by having procs on nukes, different animations/effects on the SL nukes, and, most interestingly, from extending the perk chain idea to nukes. This would do thinks like cast nuke A for x damage, and if you then cast nuke B in a short window thereafter, as well as doing its normal y damage, it'd do something else... more DD, a DoT, a stun etc.

Chains done well could address the damage, the survivability and the team desirability in one go, and make the NT more interesting to play to boot

This should be put on a sticky and attached to every dev's monitor.

[Keldros]

"We see NTs as being a profession built around nano based damage that can do competitive damage at the higher end of the damage scales, with a limited defensive toolset and being far more effective in team situations then solo. The defensive abilities of an NT should be more about escaping or surviving agro if the tank slips up then tanking themselves."

Where we see that NTs have fallen behind is in two main areas, firstly that their nano damage hasn’t scaled upwards to the same extent as weapon based professions, and secondly that their defensive toolset no longer allows them to escape from situations like Nullity sphere used to provide on Rubi-Ka.

This is definitely a good start.


I'm concerned about the part where you say "being far more effective in team situations then solo"--It's not about how much more effective we become when we're on teams, it's about how much more effective teams become when we join. Otherwise, we don't get invited. Ever.

[Steveo]

It's not about how much more effective we become when we're on teams, it's about how much more effective teams become when we join. Otherwise, we don't get invited. Ever.

Good point

[Jaesic]

Well, we should also not go from being anathema in teams to being in a situation where the only desired teams are 3 NT's, a tank, and a healer, and an XP totem... and other damage dealers ignored unless there aren't any NT's. Part of this comes from needing ways to improve team strength that don't directly relate to the total damage output per second of a leveling team. Unfortunately, fixes to NT in a damage output sense are going to throw another monkey wrench into the works there. The plans for introducing more faction and SK opportunities may counteract this problem somewhat... but as long as people continue with the SK/min comparisons determining team make-up, this will probably be an issue.

Maybe one direction to go is more opportunity for variation in leveling areas based on different team types. Some could provide better SK rates for a range oriented team (NT's, soldiers, adventurers), others for a melee oriented team (Shades, enforcers, MA's), and yet others for a pet/crowd control oriented team (engie, MP, crat, fixer). There's some room for crossover here, of course, and healers are always useful... but this sort of division of strengths could make every profession more desired for a team in the right environment. After all, if every team levels the same way because that's the only way... then there are always going to be professions left out.

[Hydrad]

Well Hi,

I been playing AO for 6 weeks now, payed 6 months for SL.

I am now 182 NT, and i am kinda fading away, i just started a MA and noticed how easy a MA can lvl and do damage.

This game isn't all about damage or beeing the best, am gonne agree on that. BUt so far my job is now, logging on, asking for a team, getting ignored by everyone and log out.

I don't wanne solo, i just want to be wanted.

Like someone above me said, if you are lft and no teams want you, how are you supposed to enjoy the game? or further advance in it?

[Arma]

Thanks Sil, this is the kind of thing we the players like to hear. See how happy everyone (well, almost everyone) seeme to be compared the usual... this is the way to biuld a community. It makes me (and I assume everyone else) feel like the Devs are friends rather than enemies.

Personally this sounds like exactly what I want from my NT, i'm a social player and hate doing anything alone... also when I started my NT I knew i'd be a big sissy, so this brings me much closer to what I expected of my character. Hit hard, survive for a short while though clever use of nanoprograms and bring some edge to my teams.

I remember doing RK missions for most of the L20 to L185 range... I was the man in a team, even though SL was out there. I was doing good damage when I had my MC buffs in place to cast big nukes, use a good weapon and also have the toolset to help out the team with my clams and roots. Back in those days I often felt like I was the only person keeping the team in one piece and with this description of the class I feel like I may finally be getting that ability back. Thanks Sil and the Devs, this is the sort of thing we want to hear!

[Enlightment]

Where we see that NTs have fallen behind is in two main areas, firstly that their nano damage hasn’t scaled upwards to the same extent as weapon based professions, and secondly that their defensive toolset no longer allows them to escape from situations like Nullity sphere used to provide on Rubi-Ka.

Now wouldn't it be great if NS weren't so darn expensive, seriously though as sombedody who's pretty new to the game, what's the point of playing a proffession if your only intended defensive tool is an uber rare, uber expensive drop?

How about putting NS 1 AND 2 within the reach of a normal player, possibly quest items or something?

[Arma]

NS1 is within the reach of a normal player, and there isn't much of a difference between NS1 and NS2 when it comes to halping you survive aggro. Every profession has to have their uber gear that is beyond the reach of "normal" players, otherwise all the normal players would be the uber players. Then there would be no normal players because they'd all be uber.

Also we kinda kick ass at making lots of money fast, so getting the cash for NS2 shouldn't be too major an issue for kiting NTs.

And i've gone totally off of the topic of this thread so I will shut up and stop wandering around the forums and log into the damn game!

[Keldros]

Well, we should also not go from being anathema in teams to being in a situation where the only desired teams are 3 NT's, a tank, and a healer, and an XP totem... and other damage dealers ignored unless there aren't any NT's.

A wider variety of nanos in the same line as "lick of the pest" might help here. Traders could have their general AC drains, and we could have nanos that reduce specific types of AC.

Part of this comes from needing ways to improve team strength that don't directly relate to the total damage output per second of a leveling team. Unfortunately, fixes to NT in a damage output sense are going to throw another monkey wrench into the works there. The plans for introducing more faction and SK opportunities may counteract this problem somewhat... but as long as people continue with the SK/min comparisons determining team make-up, this will probably be an issue.

I remember being annoyed when Funcom removed the ability to level by tradeskilling. Sure, it prevents people from powerlevelling with scripts or bots, but it really only leaves one option. When was the last time a quest or mission gave you comparable XP(SK)/hour to killing things? (Not counting killing mobs for the quest)

Maybe one direction to go is more opportunity for variation in leveling areas based on different team types. Some could provide better SK rates for a range oriented team (NT's, soldiers, adventurers), others for a melee oriented team (Shades, enforcers, MA's), and yet others for a pet/crowd control oriented team (engie, MP, crat, fixer). There's some room for crossover here, of course, and healers are always useful... but this sort of division of strengths could make every profession more desired for a team in the right environment. After all, if every team levels the same way because that's the only way... then there are always going to be professions left out.

Actually I would love to see this implemented--missions or dungeons where you have the choice between fighting the guards, or cracking a few locks and disarming some traps to sneak past them.

Actually the ideal dungeon/mission for more balanced teams would be like this: A bunch of mobs the team can fight drop parts (with maybe some of those parts found in locked chests), where a tradeskiller can assemble the parts (Assembly must be done inside the mission/dungeon--reqs should include tradeskills and a check for an "Inner Sanctum" type nano), and finally some sneaky person carries the assembled item past a guard (capable of squashing any visible team in seconds) and opens the secret door/portal/whatever to the next level/goal.

Unfortunately a few years ago people were using scripts/bots to powerlevel with tradeskills, so the devs decided that the only way to level was killing things.
This means the only way to level faster is to increase your damage output, and that has led to the current SL situation where the damage dumper decides who stays in the team and levels vs. who gets kicked.

[Spirit]

Only 2 years left to see effects ingame from this important discussion