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Thread: Role of the NT

  1. #1

    Role of the NT

    The original description of the NT profession was written over four years ago now, and as some of you have asked in recent threads you felt that you would like some clarification on where the devs see the ‘role’ of an NT...so without further ado...here we go:

    "We see NTs as being a profession built around nano based damage that can do competitive damage at the higher end of the damage scales, with a limited defensive toolset and being far more effective in team situations then solo. The defensive abilities of an NT should be more about escaping or surviving agro if the tank slips up then tanking themselves."

    Where we see that NTs have fallen behind is in two main areas, firstly that their nano damage hasn’t scaled upwards to the same extent as weapon based professions, and secondly that their defensive toolset no longer allows them to escape from situations like Nullity sphere used to provide on Rubi-Ka.

    Now as I have said at length in other threads at this juncture we are not in a position to say what we might have coming to rectify either of those areas, but that things are now in motion.

    Neither will we ever again get into the realms of ‘X profession’ is going to be the ‘best’ at any particular aspect as such definitions clearly fluctuate (often in unexpected ways) as expansions and new content come into the game, so we are not going to give any ‘rankings’ and say ‘NTs should do more damage then <insert profession here>’

    ..hopefully though, this will give you the indication you were looking for in terms of the general direction of the changes that the devs are currently exploring

    Please keep responses to this thread civil and constructive, if you flat out don't like this definitition and feel the urge to flame the devs opinions without anything constructive to add then think twice about posting on this thread if you value your ability to keep posting on the forums
    Craig 'Silirrion' Morrison
    Old Timer

  2. #2
    Now this is something more like it. I'll start off the comments then.

    so the envisioned roll for the NT profession is going from a very good all-rounder profession, to the envisioned heavy stationary artillery depending on someone else to hold aggro while we do our thing.

    ok. it's a start for discussion.

    I'll just throw a statement into the mix first.
    Higher defensive tool usage (ie. getting aggro and using blinds/layers/ns etc.), means lowered damageoutput as execution time is "wasted"(unless parallell casting of different nanolines is introduced, which I highly doubt). I don't see why there can't be made a balance in this equation as compared to "the fleeing NT". This would mean atleast moderate solo ability on not kit-able mobs..
    Last edited by _Delerium; Mar 4th, 2005 at 13:41:51.
    Delerium(220/30/70), Locklear(220/30/70), Piggybank(60/6/14).

    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

    Richard Dawkins: We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.
    Deng: Every time I see Del I just start to quiver.

  3. #3

    Thumbs up

    Well, this is my first post to the AO forums, and I am rather new at being an NT, but I would first like to thank you, Sirillon for the feedback now given.

    I would like to commend the devs for daring to give this opinion, as this forum appeares to me to be highly flamable, but I wholeheartedly agree with them and their vision of the NT.

    As to nano damage and escape capabilities, well, that is exactly what my NT needs, so I am now rather hopefull for him

    There is one small thing that you should change though, the NT is classified as a medium/high difficulty class, it is, and should be like most caster classes I have played, (usually prefer Paladin though ) high difficulty at lower levels, but good damage and the other end of the level scale.

    So, no retiring of my NT for some months, yet

    As to the solo aspect of playing an NT which has been raised, with better nano attacks and escape possibilities, it should greatly improve solo play. Personally I envisioned the NT as an all out damage dealer when I joined AO, one which was the worst damage taker in the game, not a well rounded profession equally good at both, why have different professions then?
    Last edited by AndreasB; Mar 4th, 2005 at 13:51:24. Reason: Quick answer to _Delerium as he beat me to the first reply ;)

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion
    "We see NTs as being a profession built around nano based damage that can do competitive damage at the higher end of the damage scales, with a limited defensive toolset and being far more effective in team situations then solo. The defensive abilities of an NT should be more about escaping or surviving agro if the tank slips up then tanking themselves."
    Thank you. This is almost exactly how I see NT working. A skilled player would with the right means be able to solo effectively should such a toolset be in working order, as was demonstrated pre-SL.
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by AndreasB
    Personally I envisioned the NT as an all out damage dealer when I joined AO, one which was the worst damage taker in the game, not a well rounded profession equally good at both, why have different professions then?
    Wasn't hinting after being a tank at all. What i was trying to point out, albeit in a little roundabout manner, was what masta said in clearer text. With our defensive tools working we'd have a shot at soloplay too if you know what you're doing. And I hope that's the definition FC has in mind with the phrase "escaping or surviving agro".

    Although there is a added concern of unlimited ranged melee mobs that has arisen with SL, but this could also be offset by mentioned tools.
    Last edited by _Delerium; Mar 4th, 2005 at 14:15:10.
    Delerium(220/30/70), Locklear(220/30/70), Piggybank(60/6/14).

    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

    Richard Dawkins: We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.
    Deng: Every time I see Del I just start to quiver.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion
    "We see NTs as being a profession built around nano based damage that can do competitive damage at the higher end of the damage scales, with a limited defensive toolset and being far more effective in team situations then solo. The defensive abilities of an NT should be more about escaping or surviving agro if the tank slips up then tanking themselves."
    Well, just look how a logic flaw in balance vision can turn into not appropriated fix. I'm not trying to play devil's advocate but something frighten me in what they said.

    competitive damage
    limited defensive toolset
    far more effective in team situations then solo

    This template in unbalanced if damage is just "competitive". Whereas the professions with whom we will compete have strong defensive abilities, providing them great Solo and PvP potential, why can't we be a bit overthat in damage hierarchy ?
    You've played MMo for years like 3/4 of devs, how the hell can you all describe a mage template as weak defenses + damages "not over a mere tank" ?

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, please...
    JCarmack.

    (\_/)
    (O.o)
    (> <)

  7. #7
    Thanks very much for this!

    Only thing I want to stress is that most/all other professions at the 'higher end of the damage scales" do have very impressive defenses, e.g. Adv, Soldier. So if we are to only match this, and not exceed it then we definitely need something else to bring to the team, i.e.

    - massive (best by a decent margin) damage + very Limited defenses
    or
    - top-tier damage + team support nanos

    If we only get top-tier damage and escape/temp damage soaking abilities there are other professions that will be more desirable in a team.
    Last edited by Rahmorak; Mar 4th, 2005 at 14:28:27.
    NT Motto: Veni, Vidi, Cucurri.
    Rahmorak, Clan Solitus NT
    How much damage are YOUR nukes doing?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by _Delerium
    Wasn't hinting after being a tank at all. What i was trying to point out, albeit in a little roundabout manner, was what masta said in clearer text. With our defensive tools working we'd have a shot at soloplay too if you know what you're doing. And I hope that's the definition FC has in mind with the phrase "escaping or surviving agro".
    Ah, sorry about that, we are all of the same opionion then, it was what I was trying to say in another roundabout way, as I miss the ability my keeper has to solo reds, which my NT never had. (Yes, I don't kite much.), and it would be fun being able to solo green SL mobs, perhaps even two of the greens without needing to kite.

    So, another thanks to Sirillion and the devs, now all we need to do is hopefully to wait a few, and then the situation will be much brighter

  9. #9
    There is no denying that certain professions do have good defensive abilities alongside good offensive abilities, and that is another balance issue outside of NTs but does reflect on the decisions for sure...we are certainly not blind to that consideration

    However as it says above we do not see the NT as being a profession that excels at soloing, all professions should be able to solo to an extent but some will always be better then others and we don't see NTs as ever being in the category of professions that would be deemed very good at soloing...but it is a goal to make them more worthwhile members of a team in more situations for sure.
    Craig 'Silirrion' Morrison
    Old Timer

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta
    Thank you. This is almost exactly how I see NT working. A skilled player would with the right means be able to solo effectively should such a toolset be in working order, as was demonstrated pre-SL.
    /me high5's everyone!!!


    Yupp!! This is exactly what I would like also!


    Dhur the Ninja Pirate NT!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion
    However as it says above we do not see the NT as being a profession that excels at soloing, all professions should be able to solo to an extent but some will always be better then others and we don't see NTs as ever being in the category of professions that would be deemed very good at soloing...but it is a goal to make them more worthwhile members of a team in more situations for sure.

    I really like this statement and cant wait til it is a fact, however, the last sentance will need a bit of work to become true for most team situations. Good luck in accomplishing this While the others that already posted mentioned about the defensive toolset, I can only add one other possible idea on this. Reducing aggro gained by our nanos while in a team might help us out, even if it is only be a small percentage.

  12. #12
    Very nice thread Sil

    Where we see that NTs have fallen behind is in two main areas, firstly that their nano damage hasn’t scaled upwards to the same extent as weapon based professions, and secondly that their defensive toolset no longer allows them to escape from situations like Nullity sphere used to provide on Rubi-Ka.
    I can't say it better... that's exactly what NTs have been pointing out for.... years now.
    Damage that scales with new 'standards' and better toolset to survive a bit more in SL.

    but it is a goal to make them more worthwhile members of a team in more situations for sure.
    It seems that you have completely understand what NTs are waiting for (finally?)
    Atlantean :
    Caller "Edmunster" Supreme 220/20 Soldier
    Fumble "Maddiganed" Countered 220/21 NT

    Testlive infos

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion
    There is no denying that certain professions do have good defensive abilities alongside good offensive abilities, and that is another balance issue outside of NTs but does reflect on the decisions for sure...we are certainly not blind to that consideration

    However as it says above we do not see the NT as being a profession that excels at soloing, all professions should be able to solo to an extent but some will always be better then others and we don't see NTs as ever being in the category of professions that would be deemed very good at soloing...but it is a goal to make them more worthwhile members of a team in more situations for sure.
    Oh, don't worry about excelling at soloing, as long we just get evade solutions and very few defensive (tanking) fixes, no matter how hard our nukes hit, we will die for sure before the mob. That's why it would be better to replace "competitive" by "best" (damage speaking), even if it's symbolic. That would balance the weak defensive side and justify why we only do good in a team whereas other ppl do same (or even more) in a team AND solo.
    Last edited by JCarmack; Mar 4th, 2005 at 15:16:47.
    JCarmack.

    (\_/)
    (O.o)
    (> <)

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion
    "We see NTs as being a profession built around nano based damage that can do competitive damage at the higher end of the damage scales, with a limited defensive toolset and being far more effective in team situations then solo. The defensive abilities of an NT should be more about escaping or surviving agro if the tank slips up then tanking themselves."

    Where we see that NTs have fallen behind is in two main areas, firstly that their nano damage hasn’t scaled upwards to the same extent as weapon based professions, and secondly that their defensive toolset no longer allows them to escape from situations like Nullity sphere used to provide on Rubi-Ka.
    Thank you very much for this clarification about the role of the NT profession, knowing where we will be heading takes away - at least for my part - a lot of tension and gives a rough idea about what we can expect to come in the future.

    I'm glad to hear that the overall concept is supposed to be artillery-like damage dealer with a defensive toolset that will make us live through aggro for a limited amount of time.

    With all the recent comments about kiting being a very powerful ability, I was a bit worried that the focus is in danger to aim towards that direction, which I personally would hate to see.

    That both the lack of offenses and defenses are being acknowledged as current profession issues is more then I ever expected and I'm very much looking forward to the changes to come.

    Just as a little sidenote, my evil twin already mentioned it ... when we are talking the escape-route, please keep in mind that using defensive tools will minimize, if not to say nullify, damage output due to both offensive and defensive tools being nano programs, unlike a weapon user that will still be able to cast nanos while firing a weapon. So any scaling of damage should take this into consideration.

    Further up the currently very common "bugged" melee range (means 40m+) found on a lot of SL mobs will endanger escaping damage (mainly thinking roots here).
    Former NT Professional and post count farmer.

    Goodbye everyone, it has been a blast.

  15. #15
    That's why it would be better to replace "competitive" by "best" (damage speaking), even if it's symbolic.
    Symbolic or otherwise, as I said at the top, we are not going to get into the realms of saying any profession should be 'the best' at anything as we all know where that has lead in the past
    Craig 'Silirrion' Morrison
    Old Timer

  16. #16
    I appreciate the feedback, but it does worry me somewhat. If we're going to be mostly relying on teaming then we're going to need to offer more to teams than just "competitive damage", or we'll be in the same situation we're in now (that is virtually no solo ability and not wanted by teams). But I can't really comment more until I have something more specific.
    Ramillis 210/15 Doctor General of The Red Brotherhood [Equipment/Perks]
    Onaelmel 190/7 NT {retired}
    Quote Originally Posted by Etaks
    {Nerfed by Satenia ... sorry but I have been waiting for this day for to long }

  17. #17
    I see NTs as having the capability of very high damage, but with limited defensive measures. However, their defensive measures should be limited in terms of duration more than effectiveness, and need to not significantly detract from their damage output.

    For team situations, this raises a question of aggro management, so tool that help the NT in that area will be needed.

    For solo play, just a good damage increase will help a lot, but maybe some other things will be needed.

    All this needs to be done carefully of course, one step at a time... but, if you use the test server, you can take many small steps (forwards and backwards as needed) during a patch cycle so that all live see is a single bigger but balanced step. There is a resource there to help you... use it Number crunching only gets you so far, real situations are really needed to get a good feel of things (as the debacle with the range debuffs shows..._

    I'd also like to see more variety to the NTs damage repertoire. This could be achieved by having procs on nukes, different animations/effects on the SL nukes, and, most interestingly, from extending the perk chain idea to nukes. This would do thinks like cast nuke A for x damage, and if you then cast nuke B in a short window thereafter, as well as doing its normal y damage, it'd do something else... more DD, a DoT, a stun etc.

    Chains done well could address the damage, the survivability and the team desirability in one go, and make the NT more interesting to play to boot
    "Do not try and catch the hamster... that's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth... There is no hamster, only a deadbeat rollerat..."

    [Social] Means: I don't think we removed any bosses because of bad pathing...there wouldnt be any left if we did :P

    AO Character Skill Emulator and Character Parser and AO Implant Layout Helper

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Silirrion

    "We see NTs as being a profession built around nano based damage that can do competitive damage at the higher end of the damage scales, with a limited defensive toolset and being far more effective in team situations then solo. The defensive abilities of an NT should be more about escaping or surviving agro if the tank slips up then tanking themselves."
    I don't know why everyone seems so happy to hear this. Read it carefully; it is basically saying NT is working as intended: mediocre damage, poor defenses, plain old gimpiness.

    'competitive damage' should be a big red flag. Competitive with what? A doc? A crat bot?

    I wish I had access to it, but the original NT description, from launch, had us listed as the best solo prof in the game. That's right, NT was supposed to be a solo profession. If this new blurb had been the description of the NT when I chose my profession, I never would have chosen it. Who would?
    Nelle, RK2 Clan Keeper
    Triskweline, RK2 Clan NT
    Zubrus, Grumpy Old Crat

  19. #19
    NT was always more effective in a team situation than solo... I personally didn't keep playing NT because I could solo, an ability I found rather poor compared to previous professions I'd played, but because of how wonderfully effective and useful I was when playing in a team.

    Whether or not the whole "ability to escape aggro and greatly useful to a team part" includes new layers, new and more powerful calms I can only hope, but it's what we used to have and it's what used to rock... I would be really disappointed if all we got was some bizarre dmg boost that would nudge us up a rung or two on the damage ladder...
    Last edited by Mastablasta; Mar 4th, 2005 at 16:54:38. Reason: always, not almost ffs!
    Thor Mastablasta Hammersmith - Level 220, AI 30, LE 70 Clan Atrox Nano Technician - Setup
    The Red Brotherhood

    I'm a Nano-Technician, don't ever expect me to fight unbuffed, alone or fair.

    Means: about f'ing time :P
    Satenia: heresy <3
    Znore: Mastablasta <3
    Kinkstaah: I have agro from many mobs ;(
    Madarab: we are aoe class, we are supose to use pistols
    Marxgorm: the NT toolset does not fit into my raiding tactics

  20. #20
    I don't know why everyone seems so happy to hear this. Read it carefully; it is basically saying NT is working as intended: mediocre damage, poor defenses, plain old gimpiness.

    'competitive damage' should be a big red flag. Competitive with what? A doc? A crat bot?
    ..and this is a perfect example of the type of response I warned was unconstructive as I have clearly stated above we ackonwledge several areas NT need improvement in so then it is clearly not 'working as intended' now is it? If it was working as intended then I would have said so

    likewise quoting 'competitive damage' rather then 'competitive damage at the higher end of the damage scale' as was actually quoted is just misrepresenting what is being said.

    Comments like that which directly contradict are exactly the problem with communicating issues like this if people insist on taking what is being said and twisting to to make it sound like the devs are lying...as I have said in other threads of late...there is no point in us lying to you, and if you want to continue to see feedback then your responses need to be constructive.

    If you want to try and flame without being constructive by all means try, but don't expect me to just let it pass
    Craig 'Silirrion' Morrison
    Old Timer

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