Community answers - level requirements on nano programs

[___________Evilspork]

Originally posted by Cz
Imposing the current level requirement system on all the old nano programs will simply be too much of a nerf. I think we can all agree on that, right?

I know you said ranting and raving wasn't the solution to these messes, but that is the biggest pile of hypocritical horseshoot I've seen come out of Funcom in a while. It wasn't 'too much of a nerf' to preemptively gut fixers and adventurers with the level req'd 14.4 nanos?

Originally posted by Bionitrous
When was the last time anybody put more than 90 in Vehicle air or a single point into Sharp Objects?

Heh, yeah, about that... uh... I was young and stupid, I didn't know any better! I thought agents were SUPPOSED to use sneak attack!

Originally posted by JaydeStargunner
Sorry...but if these changes were instituted in the name of balance, how come they don't seem to balance anything at all? NCU buffs are the only possible nano I see that should get these limits on them. Period. All or nothing.

Amen. I (and many others) have been saying this since the level reqs were announced. The only way level reqs are 'fair' and 'balanced' is if everyone has to deal with them or if nobody has to deal with them. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Scorus
If you apply the decision to all the old nanos retroactively, then you have a major nerf. And you are forced to add level reqs as use reqs for the nano in addition to the nano crystal so that everyone is on the same playing field. Otherwise you set off a wave of Mocham-selling so people can load their nanos before they are nerfed.

Funcom already has the stealth patch tactic to combat that.

[Therion]

Originally posted by Kuroshio
Make all nanoformula requirements work from the base skill instead of buffed skill.

Something I've suggested, myself.

Or a variation thereof: make it similar to OE rules. If your base skill + some percentage is insufficient, you can't use it. Period, end of discussion, and that's too bad. (Or possibly allowing base + implant to be the check, while rendering over-equipped implants useless.)

Of course, I think buffs and implants should be used to either "enhance" your "weaknesses", or make you better at what you can already do, not give you the ability to do/wear things that are far beyond you. (And, yes, of course, I use buffs/implants to function well "above my level", too.)

It would be a big hit, but it would make sense, would remain consistent across the board, provides breed benefits and removes the need for annoying level caps.

ie: Buffing Pistol makes you hit better, perhaps crit more often, but it doesn't let you equip a gun beyond your actual skill (or base+implant if implants were more restricted). Buffing nano skills yields fewer resists/fumbles, perhaps increases your average damage; but does not allow you to execute nanos beyond your actual abilities. Etcetera.

It's how I would have done it, but (perhaps fortunately from certain perspectives) I didn't do it.

It's a skill-based game with breed differences. Throwing that all away by imposing arbitrary level limits because people are using buffs/nanos in a way that was apparently unintended is silly when there are changes one can make that retain the good aspects of the system.

[______________Varsel]

Originally posted by Kuroshio

Warning!!! Heavy sedatives will prolly be needed for everyone that reads this

[list=1][*] Make all nanoformula requirements work from the base skill instead of buffed skill.

........

No buffers = No buffs = Everyone loses [/B]

I second that.

Even if this means alot of onetime work for the devs it's better to do this the right way from the start.

I think separating skills from buffs (and debuffs) would be a step in the right direction of controlling balance and OE without destroying it.

[Darkbane]

To be honest, I'm still waiting on a clear and comprehensible explanation of the level reqs. Presumably the developers know what is going into Shadowlands in terms of game mechanic changes, so why don't they just tell us? (or are we to be kept in the dark?) How will players with the expansion relate to those without? How will new equipment be handled? NoDrop? An ExpOnly flag? Too many unknowns...

[Cambist]

Could restrict buffs to people you can get XP with and avoid the extreme levels of twinking without destroying group mechanics.

[_____________tharien]

So the skill reqs are gonna increase with the implimentation of 14.6 ir preperation for shadowlands. What about the lost IP. IP is being leaked regularly by many players. I never once got upset about it being that i was in the same ship as many of my fellow players. Now you want to increase the skill reqs on nanos. Now i understand what my dad was talking about when he had to walk up hill, both ways, 10 miles, naked, in the snow to go to work for 5 cents an hour, 20 hours a day just to pay for his dying sisters kidney. It's realy defeating. I hope that by the time this is all implemented the new char's i creat wont have the same disadvantage that my main char does now. The memory of an alzhimers patient. He can learn how to do something, and then "forgets" after a while (in lost IP).

[Naraya]

Why is it bad?

Level requirements in any aspect are a bad thing in a "skill-based" game. Nuff said...

If you are trying to prevent "trivialization" of the game, adjust the skill requirements themselves...

Remove the level reqs on the nanos. Do yourself that favor and save the customer base you have left....

[__________Maxtor 1-7]

Is the EP will increase the skill system and add such large, new buffs and nanos that the old ones will be almost useless to anyone with the EP?

[Erikomei]

I still thnk the best thing to do you get the high up nanos
multi reqs that a simple skill buff will not help you with ,
are the MP and Trader buffs that far reaching ?
I am starting to think they are

[_______MartinDeShade]

Originally posted by Cambist
Could restrict buffs to people you can get XP with and avoid the extreme levels of twinking without destroying group mechanics.

Exactly!! If they restrict all buffs to people you can get XP with they could completely remove all level requirements. Will some people dislike it. Sure. But it preserves the skill based game, and is simple to implement.

A more complex and difficult to implement system, would be to find the earliest possible level that a nanomage of that class could cast it, including items, implants, and one level appropriate outside buff. Then figure out what is the lowest level that you can get XP when playing with that nanomage, and set that ONE nano at that low of a level for the target. And apply it across the board to all nanos in the game, even the ones allready loaded. I would not in the least envy a person that task.

But since you would only be putting level requirements on the target of the nano, that should eliminate level requirements on ALL self-only nanos.

And while we are on the subject. What were FC thinking when you put level requiements on armor pieces? If that was the level you wanted people to start using it then raise the skill requirements instead of being LAZY and slapping a level requirement on it. Some breeds will be able to use it earlier then others, so what?? How is that different then everything else in the game??

Martin

[Cz]

Tetra (and a bunch of others), argument about current top level nanos apparently becoming trivial - while new nanos are level restricted - noted. Its the foundation argument for imposing same restrictions on the old nanos as the new ones.

I still personally believe imposing the current level restrictions is too much of a nerf though (note: A possibly needed and fully justified huge nerf is still a huge nerf). Imposing some kind of level restrictions is a better option, in my opinion.

Bionitrous, I doubt we have time for a full case study, but we'll do some research, especially with the Professionals, who have already been of good help in this.

Level requirements on equipment hereby added to the list of issue for the more general threads, to not mix it in too much with nano programs level requirements.

JaydeStargunner, I think the numbers are actually 25, 50, 75, 100, 125, 135, 145, 155, 165, 175, 185 and 195. Might not be nano programs at each of those yet though. The formula first give a number, then we go down to the closest number on the list.

Psiraven, bad wording by me - and a typo too, but that's besides the point. I meant "this advantage", not "the advantage". There are other advantages, and some more is to come.

Cambist, such restriction would probably stop the extreme twinking, but would still allow for people getting huge buffs and then using their top nanos at level 100.

---

Ok, gonna work on this issue today, and try get a word with Blackmane if possible.

A small request though: There is a lot to read on this issue, so please do not repeat arguments if they're already posted in the thread. If you feel I missed something, write me an e-mail pointing me to the post.
(E-mail is cz@anarchy-online.com, but please beware that I do not have time to reply to all e-mails. I do read them all, though, of course.)

[____________Greystar]

Oi, this is the latest thread then ?

Uhm, ok, I post a link to my post in a not-latest thread here, scroll down please

there

[____________cristine]

a few things i woud like :
please make a reloud button
please create some desent trade skill items
like the abiletie to increase the ql of a gun or armor by 5 % ( woud not be to unbalecing , i just get tyerd of looking for new armor everie 7-10 levels)

[__________Munchausen]

The main problem here is that at some point, an apparently new budget will come into play that will make level requirements necessary. It is inevitable that the main requirement for casting a nano is level. If it were skill, then the level requirements would be unnecessary and this has been admited in several official posts. Once the level requirement is the primary variable for casting nanos, you've got a major major problem as the game no longer is about skills but about level. There isn't a solution that would prevent this. If you must have level reqs, the best solution is actually to just say that AO is now a game of leveling and gaining access to anything that trivializes the nano requirements (given it is a budget we are talking about, I'm guessing it will be several vectors including buffs ((primarily)), mod armors/weps, ips etc).

I see why you are adding reqs, but the problem level reqs are correcting is from buff's effect on the budget, not the item's effect. Mod enhancing armors and weapons simply don't get close to making up the 272 points that one can get from outside nanoskill buffs even in a greatly enhanced budget. Nerfing nanoskills buffs (or at least down to masteries) to self-only status preserves all the features of the skill environment and allows for the new budget to assume the purpose that these broken buffs have.

Since there are only 2 ways to get nanoskill additions through buffs, nerfing those lines gives you 100% OE rules for self-casting without yucky level reqs! If the shadowlands budget and the nanoskill changes were implemented side-by-side you would get to retain the skill system, keep the reqs non-trivial, and give people reasons to acquire gear. You could have a hugely increased skill budget that wouldn't change the old nanos availability to cast and wouldn't make anything trivial. Big numbers are hard to control in the skill system. 272 is an outrageous number. If that number goes up (due to most anything actually, but my intuition is its mostly buffs we are looking at)- the skill system will just get trivialized and it's all about level again.

[Maximilian]

What I think about the new level requirements comes in several chapters, because the topic is to large to be handled with a few sentences.

I am playing:

1) lvl 69 Adv, complete reset, frozen. This guy has been played since live start (Date of Registration: 2001-07-10 22:08:15 UTC) until March/April this year. Dual wield pistols all the time, Khemo/Desert Combo.

2) lvl 74 Engi, my active character. Vektor shotgun, self equipped or Mastery assisted bots, ql90 implants. (My trade skill character)

I have read the 'reasoning' for the level requirements over and over again, but I agree with most of the other (Adv, Fixer and MA) posters, it is neither logic nor reasonable. A lot of things have been already shown (Tetra, e.g), but I want say and show why I am against them as well, though some repetition might happen (just read your answer in the thread - so I might skip the one or the other chapter ).

Listen, I am principally against level restrictions, especially in a skill based environment, but I understand, that there can/must be exceptions (NCU buffs, e.g.).

What I am offended most by is the obvious lack of consistency in your argumentation. Things, that can not be true are used as arguments - this really goes 'on me balls'.

Just regard the low level Pistol buffs (< lvl 50):

We are talking about five different buffs, three of which are stackable:

Nano formula		Prof	line	ql	lvl	Buff	PM  TS  SI   NCU
Pistol Expertise	-	103	10		+20	61      61   4
Gunslinger		Bur	199	14		+20	79      79   5
Pistol Mastery		Sol	199	24		+40	121     121  8
Skill Wrangler (Lossy)	Tra	220	41		+27	203 203      13
Ballad of Smoke		Adv	199	47	50	+40/3	231     231  13

Several things do not fit to the rules postulated by Andrew (with all due respect).

1) Self only! Why is the Adv buff, even though not stacking with crat and soldier buff self only. It seems ok, that a lvl 30 soldier (conservative guess) can stack +40 Pistol on who ever he wants. Ok, Soldiers are supposed the be superior concerning fighting, but that is a strong difference. Any by this, the soldier is not only superior in combat, he is superior in nano usage over the Adventurer - any good reasons for that?

2) Level restriction.

Originally posted by Andrew Griffin, nano designer

In the expansion pack we are going to be increasing the skill budget that we have by a very large amount. ... With these new skill levels ..., it will mean that using the current scale of skill requirements for nanos will make the highest level nano useable at a trivial level.

I assume that soldiers will get these unnamed benefits as well, or? So the soldiers will be able to use their +40 Nano at level 20, maybe even 15, because you are not going to put level restrictions on old nanos - we heard that.

3) Skill requirements

Originally posted by Andrew Griffin, nano designer

Adding level requirements now means that, even though we know what the skill budget will be expanded to with the expansion pack, we do not have to start implementing the full skill requirements on new nanos right now. ...

Maybe I do not understand, what he is saying, but the numbers do not speak for him.

+40 Buff soldier PM/SI 121, 8 NCU (30 min)
+40 Buff adventurer PM/SI 231, 13 NCU (40 min)

Ok, we do get an additional Fling buff of +3 (+3 - ??? hä, that is more of an offense than a serious meant add on), and our buff last 10 min longer, but therefore we have to use 195 Nano instead of 90 and to be level 50 (reminder, soldiers could cast this by lvl25 and it is not self only, although it does not stack). Am I getting something wrong here?
I even checked the skill costs for soldiers versus Adv. PM(soldier) 10, PM(adv) 9. Slightly cheaper for Adv. SI(soldier) 12, SI(adv) 8. Ok, here we (adv) are clearly advantaged, but that is one skill by a factor of 1.5, not two skills by a factor of ~2.

So in the end, the Adv nano is more than inferior. At almost any level below 50 (let's say 20-40) any char on this planet can be buffed for +87 on the Pistol skill (+20 gen. +40 soldier +27 wrangle). You don't even need high level caster for that.

Just we Adv have to wait up to level 50 until we can do the the +40 part on our own! If we are willingly and able to invest into PM at that time point.

The level requirement on this specific nano is
a) useless,
b) not to justify (+3 fling?), and
c) totally unfair (personal view)

Next chapter is going to concentrate on the mid level skill buffs.

See you,

Max(imilian)

[Turin]

Originally posted by Erikomei
I still thnk the best thing to do you get the high up nanos
multi reqs that a simple skill buff will not help you with ,
are the MP and Trader buffs that far reaching ?
I am starting to think they are

mochams = +150 to given nano skill. trader 132 wrangle = +132 to any given nano skill

buff = +282 points. + gens. 302 points.

[Warlock]

...and again FC refuse to address the _issue_ (the shadowlands buffs).

This is the cause, this is what must be controlled.

If you were to introduce a gun that did an insta-kill (due to an 'upcoming increase in the damage budget in the expansion pack') would you:

a. Make all players immune to insta-kill
b. Remove the insta-kill ability from the gun.

Any sane and rational person would choose b.

Communicating with Funcom is very much like banging your head against a very hard wall....several times!

[Darkbane]

Hmm, hopefully Blackmane will be able to clarify this entire damn issue, as we're still fumbling about in the dark, trying to discuss something we know very little about.

We have had one explanation, which was pretty vauge, not very clear, and seemed to boil down to 'something to do with the expansion'. Not terribly satisfactory.

Is there some story reason these mechanics can't be discussed with the playerbase? If that is the case, do say so, then at least we'll know there's a reason.

I'm sorry to keep harping on about this, but your playerbase are not mushrooms...

[Maximilian]

Mid level Pistol buff.

Here we have a similar picture as above, besides the fact, that nobody but the Traders has a comparable buff, which is not directly comparable, because it is short term (3 min). Due to this fact, I compared the Ballad of the Desperado with weapon buffs from other professions (Agent and Fixer).

Nano formula		Prof	line	ql	lvl	Buff	PM  TS  SI   NCU
'xxx' Expertise		-	103	10	 -	20	61      61   4
Bal. of the Desperado	Adv	199	99	100	65/9	479     479  27
Sniper's Bliss		Age	194	43	 -	50/15	208     208  14
Major Suppressor	Fix	253	73	75	79/50	350     350  21
Skill Wrangler (Major)	Tra	220	97	 -	65	448     778  30

Best to be compared (my view) is the Fixer and the Adv buff, both 14.4 nanos and self only.

The more effectiv nano (+79 SMG/+50 Burst) is of significantly lower level and has a lower level requirement. Without a doubt, Fixer are a more combat oriented profession than Adv (well), but the difference is striking. 129 skill points in two skills more and 25 levels to wait until we can use an inferior buff - I don't think this easy to justify.
Again, let's compare the skill costs per profession. PM and SI are 12 point skills (cheapest dark blue) for Fixer = expensive, Adv pay 9 and 8. Ok, so the total skill costs might be on par, but neverthelss, why do we have to wait 25 more levels, until someone can buff us into the nano?

My personal estimation would be, that at lvl 75 a +79 SMG buff packs a lot more punch than +65 Pistol buff at level 100. Atm, lvl69, I would be looking forward to a +65 buff. Agents and all others get +50 very cheap and early.

An answer would be most appreciated.

To be continued ...

So long,

Max(imilian)

[Snuble]

Fact: There will be items in the Expansion that buffs nanoskills to the extreme

I just wonder what new stuff that will make use of those buffs Something unholy cool I hope

I was not surprised to see that some level restrictions where introduced. What suprised me was that they where *higher* then then nanos QL To encourage a bit of twinking (thats what any good game does to a degree, like taking ladies for a drive in GTA3 ) it should be the other way ,) I think I read in a official reply that the QL of a nano is based on the skills needed. Implement a sliding formula that set the level req of a nano about 10 levels lower then the QL at level 100 and about 20 at level 200.

Still a nerf, but would in fact mirror most players progress.