Consolidated IPR Thread

[Silirrion]

As a final word on the matter for now on our end, here as some of the numbers from our research:

Average Number of unused IPR on all characters 200+: 15 IPR
Average Number of unused IPR on all characters 200+ and older then two years: 13 IPR
Average Number of unused IPR on all characters 210+: 14 IPR
Average Number of unused IPR on all characters 210+ and over two years old: 12 IPR
Average Number of unused IPR on all characters at 220: 10 IPR
Number of characters with no IPR left at 200+: less then 2% of the 200+ playerbase

That was from looking at active characters. To see that IPR was not a real issue for those leaving the game we also looked at the average number of IPR left on all 200+ characters that had cancelled in the last three months and that was just over 14

So as you can see there is not any major problem with people having available IPR at high levels either.

Now, as I said above, you can argue all day and all night if you want to, as to whether players 'like' the system, but these statistics tell the designers that the system is currently being used exactly as intended, and as such is unlikely to change.

..and yes Nikotin, I love that quote and it is in many cases very true, however here the arguement is as above not whether people think the system 'could' be changed (as some people will always have a different opinion) but whether we can see that they are working as intended, which they are.

Nessina, if you really can't see the situations that would be caused (and therefore have to be accounted for) by having unlimited IPR then I challenge you to think about it in a little more depth. Just off the top of my head, you would for example see a much narrower range of weapons used, in particular in PvP (because players would figure out the 'best' template), which would then mean devs would be more inclinded to add more profession specific stuff only in future, and go back and tag all the older items in the game with one or more professions as intended to avoid situations like that we had with the caterwaul back in the day, and thats just one example.

The skill system was designed to allow the player choice, which it does, and to give weight to the players choices. Now IPR is designed to allow the player to compensate for more wide ranging gameplay changes, which it does with some distance to spare.

The skill system was not designed to infinitely reconfigurable as we feel that kind of system does more damage then benefit to the overall balance of the game.

Just to be clear, we are not saying there will never be more IPR, whenever the devs consider making a major change to gameplay the addition of more IPR is always on the table to ensure that all players (whether they have overused their iPR in the past or not) always have the ability to compensate if necessary. It depends on the change being considered though.

[Nesina]

Uhmmm best template for PvP? That arguement is kinda moot as everyone is prettymuch using Aimedshot already.
Also as said earlier in this thread some professions have a really good weapons template where others don't have as good as no viable weapons and therefore are more inclined to test different setups.

[Elucidate]

Just to be clear, we are not saying there will never be more IPR, whenever the devs consider making a major change to gameplay the addition of more IPR is always on the table to ensure that all players (whether they have overused their iPR in the past or not) always have the ability to compensate if necessary. It depends on the change being considered though.

Perfect quote.

Where's our IPR from SL, AI and gaining Title Level 7?

SL changed the game, majorly.

AI changed the game even moreso, with weapons that have a min-damage area around 1-1.3k in PvP. Professions that use these weapons have a distinct and BEYOND reasonable advantage over someone who doesn't have these weapons, or no longer has the ability to change to these weapons.

Recently messing around in OA, a 212ish keeper was hitting me for 1200/hit, minimum damage. What was I hitting for? 200-500. On the rare occasion that I managed to actually land a hit, thanks to the special nerf.

So, there's 2 major changes and 1 major oversight.

Lets count it out..

SL, 4 IPR. Where are they?
AI, 4 IPR. Where are they?
TL7, 3 IPR. Where are they?

Oh, that's right. SL and AI weren't major changes. Minimum damage isn't important at all, people do just find with old RK weapons!

/let me know when you're done laughing at that.
//give me the IPR from SL+AI+TL7.

I certainly hope you realize that TL7 is a milestone now, and not dinging TL6. People can do that in a few days flat if they are nutty enough!

200-205 took me over 2 months to do, simply due to:

A.) Faction
B.) Being ill-equiped due to the changes brought on by the SL and then AI expansion packs.

Me running out of IPR is my fault and your fault. Not mine alone. You changed the game, but never supplied me with the needed IPR to develop my character into a role more suited to the current game.

I still consider the lack of IPR from AI/SL/Title 7 an oversight by the developers/designers. Have them take another good look at it. I know I'm right, and I'm sure most of the people in the game would agree with me. To bad you can't do an in-game poll, locked to one-vote-per paid account.

Anyway, the lack of that IPR is disallowing me to compensate for major gameplay changes.

[Silirrion]

Elucidate we consider the current amount of IPR already given to more then cover the changes that have been made to the game up to this point.

[Elucidate]

I got ya.

So that 2% of the playerbase doesn't matter at all. Good to know, I'm one of them.

[Comis]

Silirrion how many players have not used IPR cause they fear they gonna run out and stay "gimped"? Can you do a statistics on that? Simply... no.

Thats why we make a investigation of that What Funcom never bothered to do, just hide behind statistics. You know what, statistics are many times wrong, specially when its just raw data, players can't flag their charater with "I need more IPR", so its impossible to say that people that have 14 IPR has "enough", I think my character need more than 14, mabye they don't use them cause they got too much to reset or simply affraid to reset to get gimped again.

Keep in mind, if a weapon changes, like for advs, you gota need about 7 points of IPR to change weapon (1he, fastattack, brawl, dimach, sneakattack, multimelee and melee init).

How can your statistics reveal which players are not doing anything cause they have too few or fear they will get totally stuck?

[Silirrion]

As I have said a couple of times now we are not debating here that some players might 'like' more IPR, players will always want more then the devs will be willing to give. Neither are we hiding behind statistics, this point has been debated and looked at indepth internally,

Please do not try and 'pigeon hole' one aspect of my feedback to try and suit your counter arguement. You guys asked for some feedback as to why that decisions was reached and I have given that, both in the form of raw statistics and in terms of reasoning, so of course the statistics alone are not the one and only reason the devs believe that no changes are required, that goes without saying. This is just one instance where your opinion of why a game mechanic change is needed and ours differs.

Please do not try and make some suggestions that this is due to neglect or an unwillingness to 'listen'. We listen to all the feedback and there is no 'conspiracy', you are free to disagree with our decision, but that does not mean our process or investigations are in some way invalid just because we came to a conculsion you do not agree with. Yes we know this effects paying subscribers and in a perfect world we would love to keep all players happy all the time, however this is not always possible and we fully understand the implications of there being a small section of our playerbase that does not like any given game system or change.

[Darkriver]

Well ...statistics are a very funny thing:

If I eat meat, and you eat potato soup, statisticaly, we both eat a potato soup with meat, only in practice, I'm relatively better off than you.

This is surely one of those arguments that we can go on and on and on forever ... difference in opinion is a wonderful thing:

I say YES
you say NO
I say Black
You say WHITE
I say Dog
You say Cat
I say long
You say short.
One of us picks up a chair
other one runs fast :P

[lunette]

At least make it more clear what the IPR system is used for.... so many newbies are resetting skill allocation mistakes on their level 30 characters, mistaking the IPR system for a real skill untraining system...

[lunette]

The lack of renewable IPR isn't what promotes a cookie cutter character. It's the player's ambition and the mentality of the playerbase that promotes cookie cutter characters. A Shade using MA attacks won't "totally suck". It would not be the top damage dealing Shade in the game. But it will remain a viable character.

People that have taken that route before you disagree. Been there, done that, IPR'd the skill. Seen absolutely no positive experiences with it. AO leaves little room for experimenting; we've shared our experiences with MA attacks with you and recommend against it precisely because in the long run AO doesn't allow mistakes. And the difference between 'cookie cutter' and 'viable' is often large, and in this case it's huge.

But within a single patch and a little IPR, a Shade using MA attacks could and, depending on the item added in the patch, WOULD become a cookie cutter FotM.

Adapting to changes made to the game. Exactly the point. Many people want to make their character the best they can. When the game changes, and does not allow to you adapt, that's pretty frustrating... I have abandoned a character as well because of this even though I was not yet out of IPR - but I could see that I would have to change far more often than the game would allow if I want to optimize my character to be the best possible. I'm a fairly slow leveller; the game changes often while I level up. It was a dead end.

You may not care about this because your playstyle is different, but I, and many others, do, because we want our characters to be the best possible.

[Nikotin]

Hmm i for one think there has been more MAJOR changes in the gameplay over the last year or so, than when the ipr system first was introduced...

AMS perks, Caternerf blablabla blablabla

-Signing out

[Wizardkiss]

...and still the issue of fairness is not addressed, even though it's really the most important reason of all for a better way of doing things.

The current system most disadvantages those who have been playing the longest by allowing newer players greater ability to optimize their characters to the current state of things. To be fair, and for the system to function the way they say it's intended to work, the number of resets available would have to be relative to the amount of time the account has been active. More resets for more changes. Fewer resets for fewer changes. That's exactly what a system where resets renewed slowly over time would do.

[Nikotin]

Silirrion:

How many of the players that rolled b4 2002 (or somewhere around there) that are now 215+ is free or have less than 5 iprs left?

[Kuro]

Adapting to changes made to the game. Exactly the point. Many people want to make their character the best they can. When the game changes, and does not allow to you adapt, that's pretty frustrating... I have abandoned a character as well because of this even though I was not yet out of IPR - but I could see that I would have to change far more often than the game would allow if I want to optimize my character to be the best possible. I'm a fairly slow leveller; the game changes often while I level up. It was a dead end.

You may not care about this because your playstyle is different, but I, and many others, do, because we want our characters to be the best possible.

And where is the consideration for people who want to be different but are forced into the cookie-cutter mold? Forced that way because the prevailing opinion is that if you didn't follow the flavor of the month you're hopelessly gimped and utterly useless? Too many availible reset points promotes that mentality by allowing other to pressure the player to follow the pack. My argument is based on the viability of the character. Most arguments for more reset points are based on keeping up with the Jones. I won't support more reset points on those grounds.

The question of the character's viability is what should be most important, not chasing the character's optimal configuration. When SL was introduced, there were characters that were 'broken' by the changes in gameplay, no argument there. That situation called for more reset points to be allocated, no argument there. But that situation is long over, with those who continued on recovering and those who didn't going whichever way their wind blew. A patch introducing a new item is not a valid reason, in my opinion, for more reset points to be introduced. The character was viable before the new item was created and that doesn't change because of the new item is introduced.

Trying to jump from #4 to #3 on someone's damage dumper because FC created a Sharpened Toothpick is not a valid reason for more reset points to me. Not when it also causes more pressure on others to follow the pack because despite their character's viability, they're not optimal and are shunned for it.

[lunette]

And where is the consideration for people who want to be different but are forced into the cookie-cutter mold?

Cookie-cutter is exactly because once you go down one road, you cannot take another. People are afraid to experiment, make one too many mistake and you can start over. The current system, the lack of freedom, is what forces people into the cookie-cutter mold.

Forced that way because the prevailing opinion is that if you didn't follow the flavor of the month you're hopelessly gimped and utterly useless?
Too many availible reset points promotes that mentality by allowing other to pressure the player to follow the pack.

I disagree. The current system does not allow for experimenting. No mistakes. So what do most people do? Exactly.

My argument is based on the viability of the character. Most arguments for more reset points are based on keeping up with the Jones. I won't support more reset points on those grounds.

Viability isn't enough in a competitive world. Especially in one with a background story about a war (PvP).

The question of the character's viability is what should be most important, not chasing the character's optimal configuration.

That does not mean the optimal configuration should be forever unreachable, unless, by chance, the right patch comes along. A player should always be free to take the optimal path if he chooses, and adjust to changes made to the game mechanics.
How well a character performs, should be up to the player's skill, not random chance like getting the right patch at the right time.

In my opinion, there should be no restriction like limited IPRs on skill untraining. Perhaps a different system, but we need a way to untrain skills over time.

Change is good. Stagnation is death.

[Comis]

So why all these "good reasons" for not adding more, "do not chaise optimal configuration"... wait a minute... is'nt that what Anarchy Online is all about? Chasing the optimal solution and configuration for your character, you can customize so very many things. Making you character optimal - right?

Then could you show the players then, your what you decissions are based on - other than statistics? What has been taken into consideration, at which point IPR has been added to the game? Cause I'm seeing a lot not taken into consideration. So please, provide a list or something to backup your story. (Specially interested in around SL, tradeskills, weapons, pvp and professions such as adv, enf, soldier, mp and doctor)

[Wizardkiss]

So why all these "good reasons" for not adding more, "do not chaise optimal configuration"... wait a minute... is'nt that what Anarchy Online is all about? Chasing the optimal solution and configuration for your character, you can customize so very many things. Making you character optimal - right?

That's certainly what it's all about to the majority of people who play games like this in my observation. Some people are the exception of course.

In particular, PvP is very important in AO which means that AO is a competitive game. Anyone who tries to tell people that they needn't be concerned with optimizing the equipment they use in a competition is being ridiculous.

[Elucidate]

The question of the character's viability is what should be most important, not chasing the character's optimal configuration.

You kinda shot yourself in the foot with this line.

To be viable, one must be optimal. They both go hand-in-hand as this game stands with both PvP and PvM concerns.

Viability is based on the optimal configuration. The optimal configuration is needed to be viable.

[Iolanthe]

Its been shown that any negative arguements formed to not allow a replenishing IPR point system has no validation in the end to compare to the benefits that such a system would have.

I could lable every arguement made in this thread, for and against it, and the negative still loses out in the end. Why? Negative arguements have no impact. No threshold. While the advocacy has endless benefits and no disadvantages to going with said ideals.

[Healblade]

FunCom its time for u to make an Ipr System like the perk system reset.