The Real Council...

[Fixerben]

stole tower tech and thats a bad thing? How many towers do you own, Ben? Go destroy them all first and then tell me none.

...but we who believe that Silverstone is the key to winning this war have no rights in the Clans...which is what all of this today proves.

Fact is that as a Sentinel supporter, i've never killed another clanner and have even hidden things away from the public that would hurt the Council...only to have MY legacy leader sent to reclaim because someone doesn't like the fact that he hates neuts?

On that note, I didn't ask the Vanguard to be in OA, lets kill Jacobi. By the standards set today, i'd be perfectly justified.

No, thats not right, he's a good person driven by money...

You are wrong, Ben. You and others only care that your will is pushed upon the clans. Your will is that someone a large portion of the CoT believes in is sent to reclaim because YOU don't agree with him.

I'll never forget that you told me today that you were unhappy because you didn't get to shoot him... I'll try and remember that next time I see you in low suppression. After all, you infringed on my CLAN FREEDOM.

I'm sorry Astera, but I do not own any towers personally. I'll even let you look at my personal ID-Data to confirm that.

You also seem to keep thinking that this whole thing is because he doesnt like Neutrals...well thats not it. If you had bothered reading the first paragraph of my post you'd see that there are many valid points as to why people dont like him. Its not beacuse he hates Neuts. I listed atleast 4 reasons in that first paragraph that had NOTHING to do with Neutrals, nor did I even mention Neutrals at all.

It is not MY will that I would have "pushed" upon the Clans, if you so choose such a word. The will that I stand for is the will of the original buildiers of Tir and the Tower of Truth. The will of Democracy on Rubi-Ka. Our forefathers never said "Lets have Democracy, and kill all the Omni while were at it.", No, They spoke of a Democracy that people could live in freely if they wished, and not to participate in if they didnt. Genocide was not part of their plans.

Thirdly, I'm glad you'll never forget that I said I wish I could've taken a shot at him. Because as I also explained to you, we've tried many ways to remove him from Tir. Diplomacy, our first tactic failed. Bribery, also failed. Violence being the last resort, which we are now at had temporarily succeeded.

And should you fire upon me in a low supression area, you then become nothing less than that which you so avidly despise.

[Astera]

*laughs*

Well Ben, in that case, how many mines does your clan own? Why not try to convince them to remove them since they're evil?

I have to ask again, Ben, where would Tir be today without the presence of Silverstone? It would be a place of Omnis and the NLF and the little group of Shades that killed clanners that hated silverstone (as well) to get their way.

You are reaching for something that I can't see you getting hold of. You are trying to justify killing another Clanner because YOU didn't agree with him.

It won't happen...not as long as i'm alive.

I tell you what, i'm going to begin a war against Fixerben because he believes in things I don't agree with... after today, i'd be justified in doing so.

See? Doesn't really matter what you say, you and others saw fit to take down a leader whom you personally despised (and whether or not you want to believe it, I can say as many nasty things about the Knights or Vanguard) and are trying to justify it.

It won't work. You've made a mistake by firing on a clanner and i'm going to make sure it comes back to get you. (edit- you=those who did...and those who regret not being able to)

You set the standard, i'm going to uphold it.

[Fixerben]

*laughs*

Well Ben, in that case, how many mines does your clan own? Why not try to convince them to remove them since they're evil?

I have to ask again, Ben, where would Tir be today without the presence of Silverstone? It would be a place of Omnis and the NLF and the little group of Shades that killed clanners that hated silverstone (as well) to get their way.

You are reaching for something that I can't see you getting hold of. You are trying to justify killing another Clanner because YOU didn't agree with him.

It won't happen...not as long as i'm alive.

I tell you what, i'm going to begin a war against Fixerben because he believes in things I don't agree with... after today, i'd be justified in doing so.

See? Doesn't really matter what you say, you and others saw fit to take down a leader whom you personally despised (and whether or not you want to believe it, I can say as many nasty things about the Knights or Vanguard) and are trying to justify it.

It won't work. You've made a mistake by firing on a clanner and i'm going to make sure it comes back to get you. (edit- you=those who did...and those who regret not being able to)

You set the standard, i'm going to uphold it.

((Dont bring my guild into this, they are not a Roleplaying organization. Any Roleplaying I do is to be considered seperate from the guild as its always been in the past for me.))

No one knows where Tir would be today without Silverstone, Astera. But in my view it would certainly be better off with someone less imposing presiding over it. Before Silverstone trounced in, while the ICC was there, the CoA was doing a fince job patrolling Tir. I'm sure if they had more support, and less Greedy power hungry warmongers against them they might have eventually become strong enough to guard the city. And I'm also not trying to justify it because I didnt agree with him. I'm justifying it based on age old principles, and facts that the man himself has killed innocents. What do you think is worse, sending a fellow Clanner to reclaim, or permanently killing an ICC Commander? Personally, I'd think the ladded is the worse of the 2. That, however, is also just my oppinion. As for starting a war against me, well, thats a personal war. The attack on Silverstone today was not a personal attack, it was an attack at all Sentinels. So unless your going to attack everyone with the same beleifs as me, that comparison was utterly pointless. Seeing as there have been conflicting views within the Clans since the beginning, your just perpetuating another of the old conflicts. Roll with it.

I'd also love to hear all your nasty things about the Vanguard and Knights. Please disclose this horrendous material so that I might also see the flaws in those groups. So that I can see how they have instigated wars, and killed peaceful guards in our home cities. Tell me something that another of these organizations have done that even comes close to the atrocity of starting a war.

Personally, I dont really find myself really connecting with any of the Legacy Organizations, none of them uphold the true principles of our founding fathers. Some may come close, but none have the pure unbiased objectivity of the founders when it comes to the establishment of a Democracy.

In short, the Sentinel objective is to erradicate all Omni life on Rubi-Ka. Which as I said before, was not the intention of the rebels during the revolt. Their intention was to break off and form a democracy that could exist peacefully on Rubi-Ka. Once again, Genocide was not part of the plan. Thats Silverstone's twisted mind pushing his agenda, not the Clan agenda.

[Trgeorge]

You all want to justify your views and accusations. But it all boils to single point.

Simon trew clans out of Tir. And clans reacted.

Are those facts all can agree upon?

[Fixerben]

We've both argued our view points Astera, and suffice it to say that neither of us will ever be correct.

((This is a refreshing change of pace, I hope you didnt take any of this personally, this is exciting for me! I hope you enjoy it too. ))

[Astera]

Wait what??? ((i'll go along with your clan stuff...but its still an easy out for you. I could easily call you a walking contradiction for it))

Ben, you are missing the point, yet again. YOU did not agree with Sentinel motives and some of you saw fit to send him to reclaim!!! I'm still waiting for the justification for it....how did the Sentinels deserve it? How did I and other clans deserve witnessing that? Oh wait...they had it coming I suppose... thats your best excuse.

If the ideals of our forefathers were to break off and form a democracy, why then were there still clans fighting when the original CoT was formed? Thats just silly...

...and for your proof of the knights...head to their castle and watch omni tek roam around freely. Look at the number of times Tristam has attended a CoT meeting...even though he is somehow better than Silverstone. Jacobi is clearly profit driven...need I say more?

The attack on Silverstone today was not a personal attack, it was an attack at all Sentinels. So unless your going to attack everyone with the same beleifs as me,

Lets turn that statement around, now...

So i'm next, Ben? I am a Sentinel supporter and believe in the same things. I'd genuinely love to see Borealis blown to hell...I even said that when I was in Whisper's Edge! Put me on the block...if you don't you will only prove me right that it was just "something against Silverstone". I offer myself freely to be murdered by you "good" clans. ...but you won't do it, just because it was very personal.

Kill Stefano, he agrees with me...what about Escritores or Maephina? They don't like neutrals, are they next? It was an attack on All Sentinels...you said it yourself.

What about the Unionists that agreed with me that that stinking neut terrorist needed to die? Are they next or was it just something against Silverstone?

You are not justifying it to me, Ben.


READ MY ORIGINAL POST WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT CLAN AGENDA!!! There is no agenda other than the will someone tries to impose over all. Silverstones will extended through Tir, Mort and Wailing Wastes. He has not expanded into OA but did help fight off an alien attack..which didn't sit well with Jacobi, apparently.

The "goodly" knight supporters (clerical staffers as well) and others have repeatedly used verbal attacks on the Sentinels which culminated today in their killing of Silverstone. You have even said that you'd welcome Boss Ross back...but regret that you didn't get to shoot at Silverstone today. Whose side are you on? Not the Clans, thats for sure, otherwise you would not regret missing the chance to level a gun at a fellow Clanner.

...anyway, these are the people you've stood behind...but they're okay, even though it is clearly written that Jacobi is part of the council because it makes him money some sort of way.

This was all a personal attack but you are STILL trying to justify killing a clanner...and failing. Keep going though, I think you'll realize the futility eventually.

[Astera]

((oh i'm good, just making a point and having a bit of fun ))

Commander Silverstone reacted to accusations thrown at him.

Thats what happened.

((...this is also getting a bit derailed. It was meant to show you the side of the Council no one sees, not become an argument about Silverstone, but i'm easy...I can argue both all day ))

[Fixerben]

((I'll make this my last derailed post ))

You also have missed my point Astera. The Sentinels and Silverstone have commited atrocities in the past, you seem to either be ignoring them or just dont see them as atrocities. Either way, You've missed my point. My point is simply that Silverstone and the Sentinels have done some pretty damn horrible things in the past. Much worse than verbal mud-slinging.

If the ideals of our forefathers were to break off and form a democracy, why then were there still clans fighting when the original CoT was formed? Thats just silly...

No thats not silly, we were still fighting Omni-Tek once the first CoT was established, until the Amnesty was agreed and signed. Then later the Amnesty was broken, which resumed fighting. I dont see how thats silly, its politics. It was Clans fighting against Omni.

...and for your proof of the knights...head to their castle and watch omni tek roam around freely. Look at the number of times Tristam has attended a CoT meeting...even though he is somehow better than Silverstone. Jacobi is clearly profit driven...need I say more?

((I'm sorry but in this isntance you cant consider this Roleplaying. Omni PvPers have dominated this area for months, its an uber lewt camp, not a Roleplaying scenario.))

Lets turn that statement around, now...

So i'm next, Ben? I am a Sentinel supporter and believe in the same things. I'd genuinely love to see Borealis blown to hell...I even said that when I was in Whisper's Edge! Put me on the block...if you don't you will only prove me right that it was just "something against Silverstone". I offer myself freely to be murdered by you "good" clans. ...but you won't do it, just because it was very personal.

I'm sorry, Astera, but if you had done the things Silverstone has done in the past. And if you had tried to force the CoT out of Tir, I would have shot you too. I may have a small personal agenda, but trust me, its nothing compared to the big picture.

The "goodly" knight supporters (clerical staffers as well) and others have repeatedly used verbal attacks on the Sentinels which culminated today in their killing of Silverstone. You have even said that you'd welcome Boss Ross back...but regret that you didn't get to shoot at Silverstone today. Whose side are you on? Not the Clans, thats for sure, otherwise you would not regret missing the chance to level a gun at a fellow Clanner.

There are reasons for both of these statements that I have explained before. You can take them out of context and fit them to your purposes, but I know what I said is not what your making it out to be. I welcome Mr. Ross back out of an amount of professional respect, and because hes a familiar face. Human nature is that is it easier to accept things that are familiar. I'd rather have Mr. Ross back than a different person, because then I'd have to learn this new person all over again. Which at this point, we might as well have had a new person from the poor showing Mr. Ross made at his speech. As for Silverstone, hes just plain mad. Mad as in Angry, and maybe even insane. Who knows? As I said before most of his decisions are based purely on emotion, not on fact and intelligence. Hes impulsive, reckless, and if put in the driver seat would run the Clans into the ground at the wheel of a war machine. I dont necessarily wish him dead, just removed from Tir, and from any position of power. To kill Silverstone on this planet is to simply send him to reclaim, which is to relocate him, not to permanently kill him. And give the chance to move him, I would. Which is why I would take a shot at him. Sure hes protected the city of Tir, but as far as things hes done for the Clans as a whole. Hes caused much more trouble, than hes done good.

[Fixerben]

((i'll go along with your clan stuff...but its still an easy out for you. I could easily call you a walking contradiction for it))

...anyway, these are the people you've stood behind...but they're okay, even though it is clearly written that Jacobi is part of the council because it makes him money some sort of way.

This was all a personal attack but you are STILL trying to justify killing a clanner...and failing. Keep going though, I think you'll realize the futility eventually.

((Curious, How could you call me a walking contradiction? I've always RP'd seperately from my Guild, even when I was President of Arion. As President of Arion I never included the guild in my RP due to the simple fact that it was a power-gamer guild. I like to experience all aspects of the game, so I stay in an uber guild, and RP independantly.))

And I never stood behind anyone. If you notice I've not been to Council meetings. I applied for the postition of Clerical staff so I could maybe help shape the council a little, but was rejected (big surprise ). Infact quite a few times here I've criticized the Council for its lack of movement on important issues.

((This is my last post, feel free to respond, but I wont keep making my callous bleed from typing so much. I havent had this much RP fun in sooooooo long ))

Fixerben waits for one of the Clerical staff to chime in with "OMG if you had any idea how much work...etc etc etc...blah blah blah...

[Drexlore]

I will make this short, I stand behind The Captain and Mr. Silverstone.

[steelyglint]

As do i

steelyglint

Proud to be a General of The Black Company

[Cogs]

First of all....Im not going to meddle in the rhetoric here. I find yesterdays events historic, a day that will not soon be forgotten, a day that will continue to repercuss in our day to day life on Rubi-Ka.
Secondly, I will go on the record and say that I am regretful that I opened fire on a clanner. Yes, I am sorry and refretful for it.
However, I will stand for it, and carry it on my shoulders, as at the time, it seemed to me the right thing given the circumstances.
The scene in Tir was not a pretty one last night, Sentinel Gunships were moving down clanners in large numbers....we had for a short moment full out civil war. No two ways about it.....and in that war we saw 2 opposing forces......tha majority of clans versus Simon Silverstone, a man clearly gone mad, and his goons. Even that is false......as his goons, including his own supporting clans, fired upon him as well.

Astera wrote:

Commander Silverstone reacted to accusations thrown at him.

No, he did not. He flew off the handle.....I suspect his last shred of sanity left him at that point. He did not react to accusations......he merely swallowed them up, and set his machinery in motion......without a shred of thought for the consequences. As a responsible leader, he should have stood his ground and provided us the proof needed that he in fact was not involved in the "shade incident". Instead, he brings us some mumbo jumbo speech, in which he casually mentions that "oh, sorry.....we killed the witness before it could speak".

Im sorry, it just wont do. Again, Im not proud of having fired upon a clanner, and will not try to justify it in any way.
But, the truth of the matter is that mr. Silverstone brought this upon himself. He pushed the envelope too far.....to the point where clan tempers reached critical mass. Again, even his own supporters took part in bringing him down.
To me, that speaks volumes.

[Stefano-Kyren]

I don't blame Simon for going off the wall and he had every right to do it, afterall.. it was the so called "Good Clans" that drew blood first and ironicly it was a Shade but that has no connection. But what I find equally odd is that the one of drew blood first was a Sentinel Supporter, perhaps it's the "Good Clans" that are blood thristy for their fellow Clansmen? I do not know but I do know I still support Simon.

[Vixentrox]

He had a right to be angry, upset, or even hurt feelings. He didn't have a right to throw the Council of of the Tower of Truth. He certainly doesn't have a right to throw Clan out of Tir either.

[Fixerben]

He had a right to be angry, upset, or even hurt feelings. He didn't have a right to throw the Council of of the Tower of Truth. He certainly doesn't have a right to throw Clan out of Tir either.

Have to say I agree with that, and I would love to see someone argue that point.

[Cemetarygate]

[Silverstone] stole Omni-Tek technology and sold it to the Clans to feed his hunger for war, to bring more death and destruction to the already war wearied face of this planet. Two more irrefutable facts.

Silverstone told me himself he stole the technology, but he doesn't offer to sell it or are you saying all the tower shops are owned by Silverstone? If so, where's your proof?

Recklessly he throws this planet into war on a whim, and no one stands up and fights back against him.

Where in history shows Silverstone having started any war?

He appoints himself Ruler of Tir, and we allow him to stand in his place.

Where has he appointed himself ruler of Tir? Remember, "protector" does not mean "ruler" so that's an unacceptable answer.

He tries to throw out the Democracy of our Clans, the dreams of our fathers, just as he did once before.

Where's your source for both these instances?

Personally, I dont really find myself really connecting with any of the Legacy Organizations, none of them uphold the true principles of our founding fathers. Some may come close, but none have the pure unbiased objectivity of the founders when it comes to the establishment of a Democracy.

There is no one "true principle" that clans fight for. Democracy may be what you want and it may be what others, but is not what everyone wants and was not the first thing clans wanted. There's alot clans want, could you try not to forget them, please?

In short, the Sentinel objective is to erradicate all Omni life on Rubi-Ka. Which as I said before, was not the intention of the rebels during the revolt. Their intention was to break off and form a democracy that could exist peacefully on Rubi-Ka. Once again, Genocide was not part of the plan. Thats Silverstone's twisted mind pushing his agenda, not the Clan agenda.

The beginning was about workers rights and/or working conditions, not democracy.

(( Please don't take the responses to you personally, but your character has a habit of, not sure what you call it, twisting the truth or making up stories, and I can't but help call you on them. ))

[Astera]

No one has that right to throw a clanner out of anywhere. Agreed.

...but there is not one person on this planet that can tell me that the Council didn't deserve it.

and here we are again, derailed.

Fact is, the Council has done nothing in its near 8 months of operation except war among itself and trying to find a way to force Silverstone out of Tir or make friends with Omni Tek.

You have used subterfuge, lies and public attacks to push your agenda down the throats of the Clans and its a crying shame that some people actually believe it.

I genuinely hope that Silverstone burns that Tower to the ground.

[Grythena]

I personally find it upsetting that at a time in which we should be pulling together to defeat the alien onslaught, we are too busy fighting amonst ourselves to be an effective deterent to invasion.

I feel ashamed that we cannot put our petty differences aside long enough to stand strong against this menace.

Although I don't completely agree with the CoT in many areas, they are the best hope for reconciliation between the clans, and I am appalled that Mr. Silverstone would attempt to have them summarily removed from Tir.

What have we come to? Are we just low hanging fruit for both the Aliens and Omni-Tek as we hiss and spit at each other?

[Fixerben]

Silverstone told me himself he stole the technology, but he doesn't offer to sell it or are you saying all the tower shops are owned by Silverstone? If so, where's your proof?

Ok...So Silverstone stole the technology, his people are the ones researching tower technology, who else would you think is in on this? And dont say the Vanguard, becuase the Vanguard wouldnt be that stupid.

Where in history shows Silverstone having started any war?

By stealing the Technology for the Towers, and selling it freely to the Clans, he caused the Notum Wars. Had he not stolen the technology and sold it to us, there never would have been any Notum Wars, and the Cease-fire would not have been broken.

Where has he appointed himself ruler of Tir? Remember, "protector" does not mean "ruler" so that's an unacceptable answer.

Silverstone has declared himself "Ruler" of Tir, think about the difference between someone protecting something and someone trying to control something. If you were protecting a city would you kill the guards that are already there, or would you try to supplement their forces? Smart move would be to supplement. If you were merely protecting the city, why would you get angry over a little argument and throw a tantrum like a child. Kick CoT members out of the city, and threaten them? Neither of those 2 instances sound like protecting, they sound like hes trying to control through force.

Where's your source for both these instances?

My source for the first instance is when he walked out of the original Council calling them traitors. If you dont know of that event I suggest you read the time line on the main Grid site.

July 05 29470 http://community.anarchy-online.com/...play=thumbnail Simon Silverstone, leader of the clan Sentinels, declares that the members of the Council of Truth are traitors to the clan cause, and cuts all political ties with the Council. The Sentinels are immediately joined by a large number of extremist clans.

The second being just this last week when he removed the Council from the building. Both are factual occurances.

There is no one "true principle" that clans fight for. Democracy may be what you want and it may be what others, but is not what everyone wants and was not the first thing clans wanted. There's alot clans want, could you try not to forget them, please?

The beginning was about workers rights and/or working conditions, not democracy.

If you like to refer to the original organization known as the "Omni-Tek Manual Labourer's Guild" as clan, you will distinctly notice that as the name states it is still under Omni-Tek control. The following is the first statement after the true Clans finally rise against Omni-Tek, describing specifically their intentions for their future on Rubi-Ka.

July 24 29206 http://community.anarchy-online.com/...line/noimg.gif Reaching a critical mass in numbers - and taking advantage of the escalating war between Omni-Tek and Sol Banking Corporation - the clans finally rise up against the authorities. Killing thirty-nine OT guards, sabotaging security droids and other military hardware, the clans seize control of four notum mines and announce their plans for a democratic Rubi-Ka; run by the people, for the people.

It states specifically that the Clans "...announce their plans for a democratic Rubi-Ka; Run by the poeple for the people..." If thats not a statement of their intentions, I dont know what is.

((There are no twisted words there man, its straight fact, and as we've discussed before I have never made anything up. I asked you once to prove that to me, and you couldnt cite a single example I couldnt prove was infact true. Send me a PM if you think you can cite a place that I've made something up.))

[Fantaghiro]

((Hi there,

I noticed some of the 'Simon told me himself' phrases again. Be careful what you say. Be careful what you claim or else we're forced to start editing the post.
thank you for your time. Game on.

-Fantaghiro))