It's about time to talk about the mission/ClickSaver problem...

[___________Judgement]

Originally posted by Kuroshio



Mules? Please explain how a mule character would apply here.

For example, say I love to play an MA. But still want implants. I make another character, lets name him 'mule' to make said implants.

You seem to have difficulty accepting that there are more ways than one to play a game.

I don't 'role-play' either. For that, I have table-top games. This is diviersion, and entertainment. And I am entertained, so says me.

[___________Judgement]

Originally posted by Darkbane
Abso-fragging-lutly! The mission system cannot realistically be overhauled without an effective and simple in-game trade system allowing supply and demand.

hehe. It sure beats the current trade system, ie e-bay.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Judgement


For example, say I love to play an MA. But still want implants. I make another character, lets name him 'mule' to make said implants.

You seem to have difficulty accepting that there are more ways than one to play a game.

I don't 'role-play' either. For that, I have table-top games. This is diviersion, and entertainment. And I am entertained, so says me.

That's fine, but AO's system is rather well designed to prevent mule characters from doing much without yourself (or your org) investing a lot of time to build it.

Your 'mule' character can make implants for your MA. Enjoy levelling him up high enough to make an implant worth making, while ignoring the 100s of people already capable of doing so easily (and most of the time for free). Want a tradeskill mule? You really need to ask a Trader about how difficult it is to do meaningful tradeskills like nanocrystals. Think 'Level 200 to do QL 180ish Crystals'.

Your 'mule' scenario doesn't apply well to AO. And it has absolutely no bearing on the fact that the mission system is flawed by the fact it never should have shown an item as a reward. Check my replies to zeroframerate on for explanations.

[___________Judgement]

yawn.

You fail to see the possibilities. I am kind, so I will forgive you.

The fact remains, however, that clicksaver is the best feature the game has. period.

Do a poll. See what other think. eh? The results are obvious, already.

Originally posted by Kuroshio


That's fine, but AO's system is rather well designed to prevent mule characters from doing much without yourself (or your org) investing a lot of time to build it.

Your 'mule' character can make implants for your MA. Enjoy levelling him up high enough to make an implant worth making, while ignoring the 100s of people already capable of doing so easily (and most of the time for free). Want a tradeskill mule? You really need to ask a Trader about how difficult it is to do meaningful tradeskills like nanocrystals. Think 'Level 200 to do QL 180ish Crystals'.

Your 'mule' scenario doesn't apply well to AO. And it has absolutely no bearing on the fact that the mission system is flawed by the fact it never should have shown an item as a reward. Check my replies to zeroframerate on for explanations.

[_____________Borrace]

another series of posts discussing a real issue in ao, posted by a well respected community member who spends oodles of time on ao and ao related items...

...and again, no response from funcom reps.

yea funcom.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Judgement
yawn.

You fail to see the possibilities. I am kind, so I will forgive you.

The fact remains, however, that clicksaver is the best feature the game has. period.

Do a poll. See what other think. eh? The results are obvious, already.

Do a poll asking people if the fact that the fire department put out a fire at their home makes it okay that there was a fire in the first place. See what others think. The results would be just as obvious.

The fact that Clicksaver works well to address an issue doesn't change the fact that it's adressing a flaw, that if removed, Clicksaver would become unnecessary. Namely, the mission system promotes camping by letting people essentially choose a reward.

[___________Judgement]

There ya go making no sense again.

How about --> If it ain't broke, don't fix it. eh? Or do you feel, of all the other issues in the game, THIS ONE requires the most from funcom & co.??

In fact, WITH clicksaver, there is no issue. ta-daaa! hooray for the maker. Bravo, says me.

I fail to see how it 'promotes' camping. I would infact say, it gets rid of the necessity of camping out mission booths --> by offering an efficient way to get what ya need, whereever that may be.

Camping WOULD happen if I need to spend 6 hours in front of the mission terminal, waiting for the reward.

How about you type ---> /tell helpbot clicksaver next time your on.

Originally posted by Kuroshio


The fact that Clicksaver works well to address an issue doesn't change the fact that it's adressing a flaw, that if removed, Clicksaver would become unnecessary. Namely, the mission system promotes camping by letting people essentially choose a reward.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Judgement
There ya go making no sense again.

How about --> If it ain't broke, don't fix it. eh? Or do you feel, of all the other issues in the game, THIS ONE requires the most from funcom & co.??

In fact, WITH clicksaver, there is no issue. ta-daaa! hooray for the maker. Bravo, says me.

I fail to see how it 'promotes' camping. I would infact say, it gets rid of the necessity of camping out mission booths --> by offering an efficient way to get what ya need, whereever that may be.

Camping WOULD happen if I need to spend 6 hours in front of the mission terminal, waiting for the reward.

How about you type ---> /tell helpbot clicksaver next time your on.

What are you doing while Clicksaver is merrily banging away, rerolling missions? Can't be doing anything that requires your mouse, cause Clicksaver needs it. Can't move away from the terminal and go someplace else, cause that'll close the terminal interface. I suppose you could chat with a friend (haven't tried it myself) while Clicksaver is rerolling missions. So first of all, lets get something straight here:

This fills almost every description of the word 'Downtime' I've ever seen. Clicksaver does not make it go away. It just enables you to not have to pay direct attention to it. I suppose if we wanted, we could ask Morb to code in a Tetris clone to play like Verant did cover up their downtime on regaining mana

Secondly, Clicksaver just rerolls missions until you get something you're looking for. It is an action repeated over and over until what you desire appears. This fills the description of 'Camping' as well. A repetative action taken over and over (namely killing the same mob) until what you desires appears (namely the item you're looking for). It is Camping.

Short of breaking out my trusty sledgehammer to get this point across, I can't explain it any clearer to you. The system is still flawed AND THAT NEEDS TO BE CORRECTED. Because ultimately, you have to face this reality so long as the system is flawed:

What if MORB quits making new versions of Clicksaver to keep up with the changes to AO?

You can quit AO. Or you can quit turning a blind eye to the flaw and support solving the base problem.

[___________Judgement]

hehe. There you go again, using english words, in sentences that just don't make sense.

The system is fine. It could be better. It certainly not a priority.

So says me.

Originally posted by Kuroshio


What are you doing while Clicksaver is merrily banging away, rerolling missions? Can't be doing anything that requires your mouse, cause Clicksaver needs it. Can't move away from the terminal and go someplace else, cause that'll close the terminal interface. I suppose you could chat with a friend (haven't tried it myself) while Clicksaver is rerolling missions. So first of all, lets get something straight here:

This fills almost every description of the word 'Downtime' I've ever seen. Clicksaver does not make it go away. It just enables you to not have to pay direct attention to it. I suppose if we wanted, we could ask Morb to code in a Tetris clone to play like Verant did cover up their downtime on regaining mana

Secondly, Clicksaver just rerolls missions until you get something you're looking for. It is an action repeated over and over until what you desire appears. This fills the description of 'Camping' as well. A repetative action taken over and over (namely killing the same mob) until what you desires appears (namely the item you're looking for). It is Camping.

Short of breaking out my trusty sledgehammer to get this point across, I can't explain it any clearer to you. The system is still flawed AND THAT NEEDS TO BE CORRECTED. Because ultimately, you have to face this reality so long as the system is flawed:


You can quit AO. Or you can quit turning a blind eye to the flaw and support solving the base problem.

[Thyrra]

Kuroshio is right.

getting a specific item from a mission term right now == camping.

getting items you want from shopping terms == camping.

getting/selling items on the shopping channels == camping.

getting teams == camping.

getting xp by killing mobs endlessly == camping.

i won't go into the blatant camping of indi mobs and dungeons.

---

judgement is right.

he doesn't se a doggone problem. more power to him; as long as clicksaver continues to be updated for each patch.

---

there are glaring problems with this game that only stand out more and more as time passes and they don't get resolved.

Cz has been doing a good job of communicating through the community forum recently. hope it lasts longer than past attempts to communicate regularly with the players. as much as Cz is posting, there is very little actual information escaping and getting to the players, imo.

i have been trained by a year of experience to expect bad things from FC.

FC could be adressing every single issue AO has right now, but we wouldn't know about it. without knowledge of what they plan, we can only build speculation on top of speculation. grrrr

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Judgement
hehe. There you go again, using english words, in sentences that just don't make sense.

The system is fine. It could be better. It certainly not a priority.

So says me.

So what will you do if MORB quits tomorrow and the next patch breaks Clicksaver? I mean if the system is fine, Clicksaver can be removed without affecting it.

Oh wait...you'd prolly cry and quit

[__________HardBoiled]

First of all: All HAIL MORB!
Second of all: MORB, thanks a lot!
The only problem I have with CS is that MORB is still paying to play AO. At very least FC should give AO to MORB for FREE.
Moreover, FC should do either:
1. License the CS from MORB.
2. Put MORB on payroll to upkeep the CS.
3. Change the mission interface to provide the same functionality.
Right now we got search engines on the web. FC is presuming to tell us that 30k years in the future there is no functionality like that? Absurd!

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Hard_Boiled
First of all: All HAIL MORB!
Second of all: MORB, thanks a lot!
The only problem I have with CS is that MORB is still paying to play AO. At very least FC should give AO to MORB for FREE.
Moreover, FC should do either:
1. License the CS from MORB.
2. Put MORB on payroll to upkeep the CS.
3. Change the mission interface to provide the same functionality.
Right now we got search engines on the web. FC is presuming to tell us that 30k years in the future there is no functionality like that? Absurd!

I suggest you reread MORB's own post a little closer. He seems to recognize the mission system is fundamentally flawed and Clicksaver only addresses the symptoms. It doesn't cure the problem at all.

[Sean-Roach]

Okay, after reading the start of this thread, I downloaded ClickSaver and "installed" it. Pretty nice. Not that it's doing me a lot of good at the moment, as I really don't have a solid knowledge of the database to know what to ask for.

Now. If standing around the mission terminals, rerolling missions until you get one you like is camping, fine. What makes camping bad is that it denies others the opportunity that you are dominating. I have yet to get into a situation where I had to wait on a mission terminal for more than 30 seconds. That's wait for someone to move so I could get close enough to click on it.

So, is constantly rerolling missions for a choice reward/type/location camping? I don't care.

[Sean-Roach]

I just did my first team mission, and it suggested a different way to handle rewards.

When you do a team mission, a mission reward is shown for each teammember, and you are informed that each player will get one at random. What if the individual mission system did something like this?

I can see two tacks. In the first, you are shown three awards, and are informed that you'll get one of them at random on completion of the mission. Which one is uncertaion. ClickSaver becomes less popular because it can no longer be said with certainty what the reward would be at the end of the mission.

In the second, at the end of the mission, you're given access to a special container, much like the overflow container. You could remove one item from this container, but the moment you click an item over, the container closes and the remaining two items dissappear. In this situation, ClickSaver would be less necessary as you'd have a greater choice of prize from the mission.

In these two scenarios, would ClickSaver be used? Yes. In the former case, remember that some people use ClickSaver exclusively to control where the missions are held. In the latter case, ClickSaver might still troll for a choice prize, but it'd be three times more likely to find it in any given roll, thus reducing its use in any given attempt at a good reward.

Incidentally, it'd be best to make any choices available after mission completion, as chest and mob loot could easily affect what the character would need.

[______________Rogoff]

Kuroshio,

In EQ, if I want a Shroud of Nature, I know where to get it. But I have to camp it, and I have to fight for it.

In DAOC, If I want a Triumvirate Shard, I know where to get it. But I have to camp it, and I have to fight for it.

In AO, If I want QL29 Bau Cyber Sleeves, I know where to get them. But I have to camp them, and I have to fight for them.

Removing items from the mission term would mean that AO becomes the only game where everyone walks around in patchwork gear. There would be no customization of your character, because you'd have to use whatever you could scrounge up.

The player economy can not help. In EQ, I can sit and wait for someone to advertise a Widget of Uberness. Ok, fine. We haggle, I buy it.

In AO, it's a bit different. I have to wait for someone to advertise a QL30-33 Widget of Uberness. The other 197 QLs of this item are useless to me, because they are lower than what I have, or higher than I can equip.

Now, granted, SOMEONE on Rubi-Ka probably has a QL30 Widget they are not using. If mission items rewards go away, *very few* people have one, but someone surely does.

They probably put it on the shopping channel for 10 minutes (more than I can stand) at some outrageous price, then gave it to a guildie or sold it to a merchant. I will never see that Widget, so I am stuck with whatver I can scrounge up.

Yuk. I'd hate to see AO become the game with the LEAST customization in town. Removing mission items would do that.

The other thing to remember is that, while AO IS a social game, socializing can occur in many contexts - guildchat, team missions, etc. To require trading is not synonymous with requiring player interaction. It just means that AO requires trading, is all.

Again, that would be another negative first for the game.

[coldwarkid]

Originally posted by Metafistics
Removing items from the mission term would mean that AO becomes the only game where everyone walks around in patchwork gear. There would be no customization of your character, because you'd have to use whatever you could scrounge up.

The player economy can not help.

Kuroshio didn't just suggest removing items from the mission terminals, he suggested better ways to customise the missions. Need new weapons? Pick a mission type which drops lots of weapons and weapon-related tradeskill items. Armour? The same. Nanos? Likewise. At the moment, all missions drop all types of loot, so the haul that you get from mission chests etc. is essentially random. Kuroshio suggested changing all that, to give you a much greater degree of control over the type of loot which drops.

Now of course that doesn't guarantee you'll find a QL30 Widget of Uberness if you do a mission in the Widget Factory or the Gizmo Warehouse District, but it does greatly increase the chance. That means you wouldn't have to do too many of those missions before you found your widget unless you were particularly unlucky. Personally, I like the idea of this compromise between total customisation and an absolute lack of it.

As for the player economy, that requires a total ovehaul as well. If you look through the threads on this board you'll see several suggestions for improving the player-to-player economy. As you point out, the shopping channels don't really work as a method of connecting buyer with seller, but bulletin boards, rented shop space etc. would. I'm sure you can come up with suggestions of your own in this area.

Once you put the two together, you start to have a working economy, where trade is encouraged because you can't guarantee finding exactly what you want, but where your chances of finding good loot of the right general type doesn't cripple you totally. It sounds like a genuine improvement on the current system.

Cheers,

~R~

[Darkbane]

And I don't think anyone is proposing removing item rewards from missions without a massivley superior method for player-to-player trade than now exists.

A mechanism to connect buyers to sellers. Some sort of terminal where you can select what you want to buy, and put up the cash for it. And another terminal where you can put items you wish to sell, see if anyone is wanting to buy and how much they are offering, and if you decide to do so, sell to whoever you like on the list, with the money and items transfered automatically to the respective banks and a message sent to the buyer.

[______________Rogoff]

I took these...

AOMD and Clicksaver were programs created to address problems in a mission system which, in my opinion, never should have been implemented. If the mission terminals only openly offered nothing but credits you wouldn't be sitting there waiting around for the reward you wanted to pop up, would you?

I do use Clicksaver because the mission description interface is far better than the one the terminals use. But I don't use the item/location list features because to me they're unnecessary. I know credits can get me everything I want. The item reward is incidental.

To mean that he advocated having credit rewards INSTEAD of item rewards. I took this:

And while Clicksaver addresses a lack of features in the current implementation of the mission system, it doesn't change the fact that the underlying mission system has a fundamental flaw by showing the item reward in the first place.

To mean that the current system of showing items was in his opinion, flawed. I took this:

But if they tore the guts out of the mission system, it would be a hell of a lot easier to put in options for locations and balance the credit reward. PvP zones = more credit reward. Inside your current playfield = less credit reward. Inside opposite faction playfield = more credit reward. Whompa connection to mission playfield = less credit reward.

As reinforcing his feeling that credit rewards are better than item rewards.

Soyuz, nowhere in his posts did I see anything about picking "guns" as a category. If I have mischaracterized his position, then I apologize. But my impression is that K doesn't think you SHOULD be able to specify your item reward, rather that a credit reward is the way to go.

And really, how is even a completely efficient economy better than what CS does? Using Clicksaver, I might find that Widget in 1 mission roll, it might take 1000. That means I will spend from 41 - 41000 credits getting the mission. I then go fight for the item.

With a perfect economy, I say "Hey I need a widget". Someone else replies "Got one. 35000cr". I say "Ok, I'll take it, thanks". No fight. No challenge.

I am a goal-driven person. I LIKE the fact that I am fighting this mob for a more tangible goal than just to kill it for experience. I hate buying my gear - it doesn't feel like I have "earned" it.

I certainly support the perfect economy, for those who want to buy their stuff. I want to fight for mine, so I'd like to keep the option to pick my reward.

[______________Orchid]

YEs it makes no sense that I am adventurer walk up to the mission booth and when I click Request Mission, I am welcomed with Hello Adventurer or the like.. but any mission I request the reward is never geared for an adventurer.

Why the hell would anyone accept anassignment if the reward was something they could not ever use?

The system does NOT work.