You tried to lvl but missed!

[_________Brokenfists]

HEY! they installed a missed shot information option, but guess what!? they also increased the chance of missing by almost 50% weeeee now the time it takes to kill a real mean or ace (which has always been terribly long for the xp reward 3-4 vets/masters die in the same amount of time and you only get 10% bonus xp for killing an ACE/RM compared to a vet/master) has been increased even further! killing an ACE/RM now takes twice as long as before! wheeeeee!

Remember that 'Where's the beef?" commercial from the 80's?

we need one for funcom's AO: "Where's the fun?"

--seriously could you guys possibly come up with anymore ideas to stall/slow/stop our leveling? what's next the GM's show up and blatently kill you when you're about to lvl? ugh, i'm sick to my stomach with all the lame nerfs.... hey to all you flamers go ahead and flame me, give me something to laugh at you all know its true, when a soldier with more then 1k attack rating misses that often there is something messed up with this game.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Brokenchild
HEY! they installed a missed shot information option, but guess what!? they also increased the chance of missing by almost 50% weeeee now the time it takes to kill a real mean or ace (which has always been terribly long for the xp reward 3-4 vets/masters die in the same amount of time and you only get 10% bonus xp for killing an ACE/RM compared to a vet/master) has been increased even further! killing an ACE/RM now takes twice as long as before! wheeeeee!

Remember that 'Where's the beef?" commercial from the 80's?

we need one for funcom's AO: "Where's the fun?"

--seriously could you guys possibly come up with anymore ideas to stall/slow/stop our leveling? what's next the GM's show up and blatently kill you when you're about to lvl? ugh, i'm sick to my stomach with all the lame nerfs.... hey to all you flamers go ahead and flame me, give me something to laugh at you all know its true, when a soldier with more then 1k attack rating misses that often there is something messed up with this game.

Evades were made more effective this patch, I think. That affects both players and mobs.

[______________Alynie]

Yes, it's so much more effective that it sometimes seems crazy. Although, some of that might be the fact that now we get messages when we miss. That makes it a lot more obvious that evades are working.

Had a fun time with my 72MP dueling a fixer wearing grid armor today. Eventually had to switch to nukes because I was missing 80% of the time with my dual pistols.

[________________Alli]

definitely not fun, just spent 30 friggin minutes on boss in a ql 196 with a full team, i got chat spammed by "you tried to hit nerfa nerfona but missed"

what the hell is that ? only thing that did any dmg at all for any of my teammates were specials and crits, which are few and far between now( i seem to crit maybe 1 or 2 times on an orange mob now, was a bit more before.

it now almost takes longer to kill boss then it does to clear rest of mission sometimes...go figure

btw i haven't seen any difference with evades in pvp yet. i still get hit for craploads of dmg...oh wait, nm that was because 5 lvl 200's were all paying me some attention, forgot that part

[________________Seid]

Pick a lower level mission perhaps ?

[Cozy]

As I have never tried this before I might be discovering hot water all over again, but
as partner soldier an I were fighting 50% boss and waren't even scratching it I noticed I had one calm worth of nano left. I said wth and casted calm. As I hit the elev button I noticed it didn't say "The target countered your nanoprogram" as I expected, it said "...someting...had no effect on...something..."?
Calm is a nano, so?

[AkodoReign]

bosses have sheilds now that work. red = fire/meele white = meele/ projectile blue= energy / melee.. etc. you now have to plan your tactics around the mobs sheilds . not a prob for a ma. but for alot of classes this can be very hard to do.

[________________Tium]

Originally posted by Brokenchild
when a soldier with more then 1k attack rating misses that often there is something messed up with this game.

I'm the soldier he is talking about, with a 1037 attack ratting, I was hitting mobs maybe 50% of the time, were not talking about the fixer type boss mobs here (you know the gits I mean), but Vets/RM's and Aces.

I've just switched over to a CHS (Custom Heavy Suppressor), and as a result of losing my RE buffs, I now have 914 attack. So I was a bit weary about hitting the mobs even less with that, but guess what?, I'm hitting MORE OFTEN (out of 40 clip, maybe 30 hits, Nova was 20clip maybe 10hits) with less attack, and that is totally f**ked up.

And before anyone thinks that me and Brok are imagining it, I have the 4 other team members that were in that mission all saying the same thing.


Thanks *FU*ncom >( pfft

[________________Tium]

Originally posted by Seid
Pick a lower level mission perhaps ?

Wouldnt like to try leveling with you

Would die of old age before lvl

[__________HardBoiled]

As far as boss mobs having shields that is plain SUCK!
I used to play engie and finally I have noticed the truth ( it came and hit me in the balls hard) that engies are garbage.
Now I play FC current lovechild - the MA and what a difference....
Point being without the true viable alternative in damage type for most proffessions these new mob shields are not only unfair but completely unfair but now they are screwing the class distribution on the RK.
As it currently stands the team of 6 ma will cut through any mission like hot knife through warm butter.
Now, how about team of 6 mp? or 6 engies? If engies are lucky they can be hitting the melee shielded boss from now till AO ends with no result.
FC just plain does not understand what they are doing. This peacemeal approach is killing the game.

[_________Brokenfists]

Originally posted by Hard_Boiled
FC just plain does not understand what they are doing. This peacemeal approach is killing the game.

Peacemeal is right. Guys seriously, you're programmers and you're game designers i know you went to college at some point where they taught you this little thing called math right? YOU CAN and you SHOULD predict what the end result of your changes will be. Hey this isnt even complicated mathematics here its simple add, subtract, divide and multiply and the occasional percentage.

Seriously give some thought to maybe going back to school and learning a little basic algebra. That way you can actually figure out what your consisntantly miscalculated approaches to *improving* AO's end results will be instead of making changes and then hearing the teaming masses scream bloody murder and you guys going *oops* didnt think that would happen lets tone down the % here or lets add in a +bonus there ... give us a break ... learn 5th grade math skills and knock it off with this garbage.

--Consistantly Dissapointed AO subscriber
BROKENCOG *highest omni doc*

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Brokenchild


Peacemeal is right. Guys seriously, you're programmers and you're game designers i know you went to college at some point where they taught you this little thing called math right? YOU CAN and you SHOULD predict what the end result of your changes will be. Hey this isnt even complicated mathematics here its simple add, subtract, divide and multiply and the occasional percentage.

Seriously give some thought to maybe going back to school and learning a little basic algebra. That way you can actually figure out what your consisntantly miscalculated approaches to *improving* AO's end results will be instead of making changes and then hearing the teaming masses scream bloody murder and you guys going *oops* didnt think that would happen lets tone down the % here or lets add in a +bonus there ... give us a break ... learn 5th grade math skills and knock it off with this garbage.

--Consistantly Dissapointed AO subscriber
BROKENCOG *highest omni doc*

Heh...okay, if this is simple math here's the question all game developers face everyday:

You have X number of totally different classes in the game (AO has 12). Each class has abilities that can affect another class' attributes either harmfully or beneficially. You then have Y number of items in the game (AO has 10s of thousands different items). Many items can also affect different attributes of a character either harmfully or beneficially. To further complicate things, Z number of characters can team together (AO allows 6 members on a team), further enhancing different individual characteristics of each member of the team. And to make things completely chaotic, there are N number of objects in the game with different attributes that the characters interact with in different ways.

Now since something like this is supposedly simple 5th grade math skills, please us which elementary school that teaches advanced computations, permutations, and predictive calculations?

Funcom has made some blunders in terms of expected outcome vs actual outcome. But here's the bad news for you: it's impossible to calculate the output of a single character with so many potential variables that can affect its core attributes, especially when new variables are added regularly.

Games played by more than one person can never achieve lasting Balance. The most any MMOG has ever been able to achieve (and ever will be able to achieve) is a Balanced Phase between development cycles. That's where after going back and correcting their past mistakes, the developers has gotten the gameplay balanced until they implement their next set of changes. 100s of MUDs have proved it (which playerbases when compared to commercial MMOGs can be correctly termed 'miniscule'). EQ has proved it. UO has proved it. AC has proved it. If you choose to play SWG and expect Verant to update it after release, SWG will prove it. Learn to live with this fact or seriously reconsider playing a game of this nature: It's impossible for 100 developers to accurately predict how thousands of players will choose to interact within the game nor is it possible to accurately predict the outcome of that interaction.

[_________Brokenfists]

Originally posted by Kuroshio

It's impossible for 100 developers to accurately predict how thousands of players will choose to interact within the game nor is it possible to accurately predict the outcome of that interaction.

I think you hit the nail on the head there, its impossible for 100 developers, yet give this minor problem to any 1st year engineering student or even accounting major tell him its impossible and he'll laugh hysterically, plot out all of the possible outcomes in less the a day and walk off with his consulting fee... WHY? CUZ THEY'RE MATH MAJORS!

These are linear problems, each variable you describe isn’t even a variable, how could it be?! Its a static number!!! Each buff, is an exact addition or subtraction from your base stat, each implant is an exact addition to your base stat. Every weapon/item's stat bonuses, yet another addition to your base stat. Trickle down stats, a small one line equation. Missing vs. hitting is a simple dice roll (btw also the main topic of this string).

*Interaction!?* between 12 characters? oh jeeze that's *really* hard man a whole dozen characters wow... Give it a rest, you make it sound like you're building a space shuttle here...


--Consistantly Dissapointed AO subscriber
BROKENCOG *highest omni doc*

[________________Seid]

Originally posted by Toxcin



Wouldnt like to try leveling with you

Would die of old age before lvl

On the contrary. You'd get exp and actually keep it

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Brokenchild


I think you hit the nail on the head there, its impossible for 100 developers, yet give this minor problem to any 1st year engineering student or even accounting major tell him its impossible and he'll laugh hysterically, plot out all of the possible outcomes in less the a day and walk off with his consulting fee... WHY? CUZ THEY'RE MATH MAJORS!

These are linear problems, each variable you describe isn’t even a variable, how could it be?! Its a static number!!! Each buff, is an exact addition or subtraction from your base stat, each implant is an exact addition to your base stat. Every weapon/item's stat bonuses, yet another addition to your base stat. Trickle down stats, a small one line equation. Missing vs. hitting is a simple dice roll (btw also the main topic of this string).

*Interaction!?* between 12 characters? oh jeeze that's *really* hard man a whole dozen characters wow... Give it a rest, you make it sound like you're building a space shuttle here...


--Consistantly Dissapointed AO subscriber
BROKENCOG *highest omni doc*

How many different implant slots are there and how many different implant cluster combinations are there for a single character? Start there.

Add in how many different equipment combinations that can modify the character's attributes.

Add in however many different nanoformulas that character can use himself to modify his own attributes, based on the all the different possible combinations implant + equipment can make.

Add in the all the different possible buff combinations that single character can receive simultaneously, further affecting their stats.

And then come up with an answer before actually implementing something new to further screw up your past calculations.

Estimates are the best you'll ever be able to pull out of a system that allows so many different combinations of equipment, ip expenditure, and temporary buffs to modify a character. Those estimates will always get busted apart by somebody with too much time and a calculator because that person has the advantage of working with solid numbers instead of unimplemented design plans with numbers that haven't been set in stone.

There's a huge difference between creating something from scratch and analyzing something after it's been made. What you're claiming is absolutely nothing new and has been seen as far back as P&P RPGs. Some dipstick with a calculator swearing he could make a better, more balanced AD&D module than the one TSR spent a year or two creating and tweaking. The Aurora toolset Bioware included with NWN has me shaking in both fear and laughter in anticipation of the 100s of deathtraps/baby seal clubfests on the horizon for that game

[Cozy]

I think, Brokenchild and Kuroshio, you guys are talking apples and oranges here. While Brokenchild lays out how simply acctually is to math fight mechanics, Kuroshio explains the dounting task of balancing.

One point Kuroshio though. You're basically right there. Still, there are prediction and statistical algorithms out there that do amazingly good job at complex systems. Look at chess/go/bridge programs. You can go about and apply brute force. And it would work. Nobody would of course bother to wait . If I pull a stupid move against my Chessmaster it doesn't throw it off guard.
And imp/buffs situation is a lot simpler than chess. I believe where MMOs go wrong is trying to make a static plans on what can and cannot be done and calculate that. Instead of laying rules of interactions and letting world develop itself on that.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's simple. It's pretty high mountain to climb. But in the long run only viable path.

So cheer up guys, around 384.2 this is going to be amazing

[Kanatach]

Originally posted by Brokenchild
I think you hit the nail on the head there, its impossible for 100 developers, yet give this minor problem to any 1st year engineering student or even accounting major tell him its impossible and he'll laugh hysterically, plot out all of the possible outcomes in less the a day and walk off with his consulting fee... WHY? CUZ THEY'RE MATH MAJORS!

Had med laughing quite hard here, I am a second year engineering student, computer science my major. We do a lot of maths relating to this kind of problem. Do you have even the faintest glimmer of understanding concerning the complexity of the calculations you are proposing?

Could you please enlighten me as to what day I am able to do this? With straight A's so far in all topics I still wouldn't try to do what you propose in a day, or even a five-day week. With Mathematica and a computer.

Yes, all items and nanos adds a constant number or percentage to all players abilities, hitchances, skills or whatever. Shouldn't be big deal.

Now, please resolve these dilemmas:

a) compute all possible combinations of buffs and items attainable at all skill-levels
b) compute all possible combinations of AR/critchance vs AC/evades in each of the cases found in part a
c) balance this in a way that makes all professions viable and good in teams and soloable in each case of b AND a
d) in a way that keeps your subscribers happy at all times

And that doesn't even cover most of the mechanics of a game this size. Personally, I believe d to be unattainable. Because if c is fulfilled, you automatically rule out d. It would simply kill variety, a mathematically balanced MMORPG wouldn't work out. Some imbalances must exist, or there is no variety.

But that is just my opinion, feel free to disagree and correct any mistakes I have made. It's late and I am tired.

[Kuro]

Originally posted by Isis
I think, Brokenchild and Kuroshio, you guys are talking apples and oranges here. While Brokenchild lays out how simply acctually is to math fight mechanics, Kuroshio explains the dounting task of balancing.

One point Kuroshio though. You're basically right there. Still, there are prediction and statistical algorithms out there that do amazingly good job at complex systems. Look at chess/go/bridge programs. You can go about and apply brute force. And it would work. Nobody would of course bother to wait . If I pull a stupid move against my Chessmaster it doesn't throw it off guard.
And imp/buffs situation is a lot simpler than chess. I believe where MMOs go wrong is trying to make a static plans on what can and cannot be done and calculate that. Instead of laying rules of interactions and letting world develop itself on that.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's simple. It's pretty high mountain to climb. But in the long run only viable path.

So cheer up guys, around 384.2 this is going to be amazing

Heh...I know it's not impossible. But I also know it's not anywhere near as easy as some people choose to make it out to be. And mathematically speaking, MMOGs are usually far more complex than Chess. Chess has a single unchanging goal and less freedom in the possible moves that can be made

In the end, the main reason I'm replying is because the line you wrote:

You can go about and apply brute force.

Honestly, that sums up a lot of the ways we've been playing AO for a year. Every situation could be solved by applying brute force. I've seen it in teams where people's idea of team work is "Shoot everything that moves".

Now it seems AO is starting to mature in areas, making it so brute force is no longer as effective as before. Mobs getting shielded against specific damage types. People no longer being able to simply shoot a mob, cause they're starting to dodge a little more, and might have to consider different ways to counter their dodging (nukes, DoTs, or even squeezing more skill into their overpacked bodies by getting more outside buffs).

[_________Brokenfists]

Originally posted by Kanat


Had med laughing quite hard here, I am a second year engineering student, computer science my major. We do a lot of maths relating to this kind of problem. Do you have even the faintest glimmer of understanding concerning the complexity of the calculations you are proposing?

Could you please enlighten me as to what day I am able to do this? With straight A's so far in all topics I still wouldn't try to do what you propose in a day, or even a five-day week. With Mathematica and a computer.

Yes, all items and nanos adds a constant number or percentage to all players abilities, hitchances, skills or whatever. Shouldn't be big deal.

Now, please resolve these dilemmas:

a) compute all possible combinations of buffs and items attainable at all skill-levels
b) compute all possible combinations of AR/critchance vs AC/evades in each of the cases found in part a
c) balance this in a way that makes all professions viable and good in teams and soloable in each case of b AND a
d) in a way that keeps your subscribers happy at all times

And that doesn't even cover most of the mechanics of a game this size. Personally, I believe d to be unattainable. Because if c is fulfilled, you automatically rule out d. It would simply kill variety, a mathematically balanced MMORPG wouldn't work out. Some imbalances must exist, or there is no variety.

But that is just my opinion, feel free to disagree and correct any mistakes I have made. It's late and I am tired.

[_________Brokenfists]

If you're unaware of how to database information and analyze data at this point after 2 years of engineering, I feel pretty sorry for you, especially considering you're a CS minor. I like the part where you say yes all of these things can be done, then go on to talk about totally unrelated topics like the so called balancing issue, the so-called ability to solo... Ya might want to consider reading up on Confucius philosophy, its all about how to go on tangents and avoid the original topic since you can’t pose direct persuasive arguments against proven facts...

May i remind you once again this thread is about soldiers with over 1k attack rating missing ACE's and RM's at a rate close to 40% its quite obvious to me and everyone else that this is done in a direct open effort to slow the speed of character leveling. The other major issue is the xp reward of ACE's RM's being out of proportion to that of Vets and Masters. If something take 4 times as long to kill it should only reward the team with an extra 15% xp.

If you want to talk about how hard it is to keep people happy or how hard it is to balance a game or allow people to solo, could you possibly do that in another thread? Its already a *given* that AO is totally unbalanced, its already a *given* that half of the character classes cant solo. And honestly why should they? This is a Massively Multiplayer game, we're supposed to be playing in teams with *other* people, relying on their skills survive.

And to put in my 2 cents on the whole balancing thing: DONT, Why the heck would anyone do such a thing? Are you crazy? You'll just end up making everyone into identical characters, the reason D&D is so well done and AO isn’t is because Wizards cast the best attack spells, Clerics cast the best healing spells and Warriors hit things with 2 handed swords for massive damage. Classes like bards and rangers who can do a little of both can only do *A LITTLE* of both! They don’t excel the cleric/wizard at casting spells, nor do they excel the warrior at dealing out melee damage.