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Thread: Money, gotten completely out of hand?

  1. #21
    At higher levels, it's difficult for any class to solo missions. There are exceptions such as an Agent with 1600 conceal or a Fixer with Grid Armor. But in general, you have trouble doing 50% missions. At lvl 70, I was doing 75-80% missions and all my armor came from mission rewards. At lvl 102, I need to do QL 150 missions to get armor I can use. I can't solo them. However, if I get a well rounded group, we can get some really useful things.

    For example, as an MA, I tend to use Str/Agi armor. Soldiers and Enforcers typically use Str/Sta armor. Agents typically use Sen/Agi armor. NTs, MPs use Nano or Cyber Armor. Docs use Biomed Armor. And so on. Now that MOBs are dropping items of their level (same as chests), it's more effiecient to run a single mission with a team getting useful items than it is to run three or six missions at 50% getting crap that you can't really use. But selling them so that you can buy stuff that you can actually use.

    Soloing's great at lower levels, but it becomes increasingly difficult.

  2. #22
    The designers are looking into the money balance issue right now, and are considering several ways of reducing the amount of cash if it is found to be too high. Player suggestions are always welcome, so I look forward to reading more of what you have to say. What would you be interested in spending a billion or so credits on?

    I'll also make this thread sticky.
    Earn free game time and play with your friends[/b]

    Anarchy Online Community Representative

  3. #23

    cash nerf?

    come on cosmik! what the heck?! a cash nerf?!

    "you people have sold too many items, run too many missions, and now have to much money so we're gonna take it away"....is that what funcom is planning?

    docs convert monster parts into plasma. ql 32 plasma sells for about 1.2k, ql 52 plasma sells for about 3k, and so on and so on.

    why don't docs just take 20 percent of the plasma they make for other people? or sell their services? or buy up monster parts at a discounted rate from professions that don't have high pharm tek skills?

    this is a silly discussion. i've seen rich characters of every profession. i still haven't seen an advent in a yalm...and i'd like to know what color an advent's car is.


    nerf the skills, nerf the weapons, nerf the armor, nerf the implants, nerf the money. dumb dumb dumb.

  4. #24
    Originally posted by Cosmik
    The designers are looking into the money balance issue right now, and are considering several ways of reducing the amount of cash if it is found to be too high. Player suggestions are always welcome, so I look forward to reading more of what you have to say. What would you be interested in spending a billion or so credits on?

    I'll also make this thread sticky.

    Suggestion:

    Find a way to stop the transfer of 10s of millions of credits, which are being purchased on EBAY.

    The normal drops in no way seem to give too much money to players until they already have the QL200 equipment they want. At that point it's all cash and these people have limited expenses since they already have what they need for the most part.

  5. #25

    Talking Want A cash Sink!

    I won't go into Lengthy Economic disussions (which others have done) But I will say that what is needed Contant Cash Sinks like the Guild Tax.

    1. Yamalhas and Other Vehicles must be maintained or the y cease to Function---Call it Fuel Charges

    2. Armor and Weapons Degrade- Gotta but new stuff everynow and then.

    3. PRPOERTY!!--Real-estate LEt us Build and Own Country Houses and pay real estate taxes on it. If you really want to get Fancy and incorporate Trade skills then make it so you have to by the "House" in Modules that can only be assembled by Engineers.
    You have to "Survey" the land and provide a Report. Surveys can only be done by Adventurers.
    You have to buy "Paperwork" From a Buraucrat.

    And you'll have to pay a Security fee to keep it Free from Mobs.

    The possiblilities are endless.

    The problem relly lies in the fact that in the "Future" Once you buy something you never have to buy it again. and Economies require a two-way exchange of goods dependent on product life-cycles.

    Oh the post did get lengthy...sorry.
    I used to be an Agent now I'm a Gimp
    I'm paying how much for this?

  6. #26
    Sorry but I don't agree with giving docs a pet, thats basically nerfing the 3 pet professions.

    Give the docs a pet ok, to balance that you have to take away healing nanos, that leaves them with hp buff and puny dd. wait! isnt that just what an engie and crat is?(the hp buff similar to shields of the engie and puny dd similar to the crats dd). I can't see any docs willing to give up healing nanos..

    Metas and their tank and healing pets.. i wont even get into that..

  7. #27

    What to do? Tough call...

    Originally posted by Cosmik
    The designers are looking into the money balance issue right now, and are considering several ways of reducing the amount of cash if it is found to be too high. Player suggestions are always welcome, so I look forward to reading more of what you have to say. What would you be interested in spending a billion or so credits on?

    I'll also make this thread sticky.
    Well... the issue here is that stores no longer sell anything useful, once you hit level 110-ish, or so. I had always assumed that this was intentionally designed to keep the road to level 200 a bit rockier: Many people may not maintain interest in AO for the full four years, if they attain the maximum level in the first year. Also, this arrangement makes team-missioning and/or guild-joining all the more desireable (and teams/guilds means players make in-game friends, & players with in-game friends are more likely to keep playing AO long-term).

    So... if there's nothing to spend money on in the high-level game, 'reducing the cash' won't make a great deal of difference. If you reduce loot & mission reward pay by, say, 50%... then we'll have high level playing running about with 25 million creds instead of 50 million creds, & they'll still have nothing to spend it on.

    If ql 125+ nanos & gear were to be sold at stores for obscenely high prices, this would probably help the economy. But this may also give high level characters the ablity to level much more quickly, without gimping themselves. As things are now, the high level characters need to keep their leveling in check, & camp the terminals for high-ql gear/high difficulty missions to run with their friends (The Demigod-Scavenger-Hunt ).

    I've always believed that gear beyond ql 125 is bound to appear in shops sooner or later, as Rubi-ka gains more & more high-level inhabitants. And the level cap with be raised above 200 at some point. If this doesn't happen, I can't see how you'd keep level 200 players in-game for the next four years.

    This really doesn't solve the problem discussed here, though. It would simply distance us from the problem.

    I've got it...! Change the item limit so that apartments may hold an infinite number of Wonderful Goddess Buffy Summers statues, once you reach level 110!

    -Templar Red

  8. #28

    If I had a million dollars...

    Well, Cozmik asked it so I'll tell ya what I want if I had a billion credits (items that I would like to see added to the game):

    1. More varied vehicles. Add futuristic motorcycles and low flying air-bikes, and 'luxury' vehicles for show, like a sportscar. That would be wild.

    2. Upgraded apartments. With a patio, or jacuzzi and other luxuries.

    As far as how to work on the economy, make player-made items better, starting at a low level, say 50th. Then an industrious player could spend time building and crafting to sell to the other high level players. It would take cash from the high-end and inject it into lower-end economy.

    Higher-end players mostly don't do trades anyway: they mission run. So lower level players have a chance to affect the economy in a possitive way by making mission running not so powerful.

    Give the economy to the players through trades and that will compete with missions to bring balance.

  9. #29

    my 2 creds

    you cant reduce the money gained, i think cosmik was talking about adding money sinks to the high end game.

    Better appartments, an outpost somewhere, cool vehicals that carry several people, hiring out a RP venue... these are my cash sinks.

    Why not go to ebay, pose as a buyer for Xmillion credits, when you meet the player in question, ban him. its against the EULA, its illegal.
    My lungs arent blackened by tar, they're blackened by SIN!

  10. #30
    First of all, Cosmik, don't raise the prices on current items in the stores, and don't make mobs drop less loot.

    What you need to do is create a bunch of high level, very high priced items for high level players to blow all their money on. Items which can only be bought in stores, not found in missions, so the money leaves the players' hands. Make them nodrop.

    I've mentioned this elsewhere, will do so again:

    Things like rings or bracers which add small amounts of nano skills, but which cost 5 million credits.

    Or some sort of boat, or super yamalha, which costs like 25 million credits. Make the super yamalha able to turn invisible or change colors or fly twice as fast or carry more than 1 person.

    Or lots of other cool high level items which people could think of.

    High level players will want them, they'll blow all their money on them, and this will fix the screwed up massively inflated economy at high levels. If people aren't sitting there with 50 million credits in their accounts, they won't be selling armor and weapons to each other for 10 million credits apiece.

  11. #31
    I've been playing a doc since release. I've learned quite a bit, though I'm not uber-high level where money stops mattering.

    Firstly, pistols suck ass. I had to scrap my first doc because of this. And I'm not terribly sure how much sense it makes for DOCTORS to have SHOTGUNS. But that's just me.

    Secondly, it isn't only docs that get boned. Fighting classes have weapons pouring out their ears that they can sell. They can also OE a weapon or armor and use it FOREVER (under the current system). Casting profs can only OE to memorize, but you'd need all of the OE things all the time to use them.

    Thirdly, life is made expensive for docs because, in addition to armor, they need to buy a personal heal, a team heal, team HP/regen buffs, short term regen buffs, short term HP buffs, then DD, DoT... BAH! Those get to cost A LOT of money VERY quickly, and most docs usually just concentrate on 2 or 3 of them.

    Suggestions to improve;

    The pet thing may be going a little too far - but f*ing hell, MAs, Adventurers, MPs, etc etc get heals, however minor, plus the stims and kits.

    I like the concept of a guard dog... if you have to nerf something like, say, DD, knock yourselves out; we run out of nano healing anyway.

    But better than that, I think, would be a nano-recharging "nurse" who would (for ingame description) help the preparation and casting of heals by providing their own nanobots. Basically, they would perform like the MP's healing pet, but heal NANO energy. This would GREATLY boost the role of docs in combat; the thing that pisses me off most about aggros is that you can't nano recharge. Say, give the Nurse 2x or 4x the doc's nano energy, and basically have it regen the doc's nano like a humidifier. Casting it woudl take a while and a lot of nano energy.

    Secondly, docs should have a cancel-poison line. It should just cancel poisons, or counter their effects. Or perhaps a vaccination buff to prevent DoT.

    Thirdly; trade skills. THe blood plasma is neat and all, and has saved MY ass, but I really think that docs should be able to make nano recharges, too. It would help a lot to cut down our costs (I really don't think other profs understand exactly how much competent docs can spend in nano energy on ONE hunting trip. I usually grab 100 rechargers, and I usually use most of them. When I say "hunt", I don't mean standing around like a twit and taking down one orange mob; I mean standing on a red social aggro spawn point and fighting. Doing the former, it is easy to just stand there and rake in XP and cash.)

    Fourthy; implants. Um, logically, docs should be able to do this fairly well, especially the surgery bit. :-p I agree; yank out the damn surgery stations.

    Fifthly, and perhaps most importantly; Aggro Dehancer that would dissuade things from attacking you. Or, if you like, a depressent nano line to make mobs stop attacking momentarily... start the line off with Marijuan- er, just kidding with that bit, but aggro dehancing would be great. I presume it wouldn't be hard; copy and paste an aggro enhancer, and put a "-" in front of the numbers. :-p

    I think the Nurse and Aggro Dehancer would be the best ways to help docs, without making everything nerfed. I'd also tweak the other prof's healing (esp the MP :-p /jealous of Heal Over Time without as much nano and no time limit). Cancel poison would be a nice (and LOGICAL) expansion, too. I don't care what is really nerfed, so... the Aggro Dehancer would take more IP on a prof that is already stretching itself thin most of the time (Most docs have to choose between several things).
    Aleksei "Zagadka" Garcia - Savior, Council Clerk
    Cindi "Razishlyat" Bolieu - Advisor Eternalist

  12. #32
    Er, I realise that my last post there was slightly off topic; let me address the economy.

    Both sides are right; there is and isn't "inflation". The people who say there isn't are usually the ones with a lot of money, who are confused as to why the complainers don't have that much money. Really, I don't know. Some people just seem to be able to make mad amounts of money very quickly. I can't; I have 140,000 creds now, and that is the most I've EVER had. I run missions reguarly, I don't buy weapons etc, and I'm fairly good at making money... but I just can't seem to do the whole 2 million creds in a day deal. I think I'm somewhere where FC expected the lev pace and income pace is supposed to be. Some people are poorer than me, some richer; but the other thing I've noticed is that my Adventurer has 60,000, and she is less than half of my level. It really does depend on profession a bit. I can't understand how some docs can get 70 million. I run missions for 8-9k now, and I still haven't gotten more than 140k (around level 40-45).

    But I do agree that a basic problem is that we do have inflation; basic things sell for 2-4x as much as they should. Power Rings 2% going for 20k? Sheesh. With an economy with no bottom end, inflation is goign to happen, because so many creds just keep being introduced. Bringing in cash sinks might help, but they will only cover up the issue instead of fixing it.
    Aleksei "Zagadka" Garcia - Savior, Council Clerk
    Cindi "Razishlyat" Bolieu - Advisor Eternalist

  13. #33
    On the subject of money sinks "cause there is too much high end cash" AC had the same problem at one point. Basically you could go hunt for 20-30 min and make a few D or M notes (50 and 100k respectively) if you sold the loot in the right places.. Do that 2 or 3 times a month and you would be set for the month for everything you could possibly need with gobs of cash left over. Eventually it got to a point where some people had mules who's only purpose was to hold all the trade notes "just in case".

    Somewhere along the line turbine decided that all this money was a VeryBadThing(TM) so they started to introduce money sinks into the game. First they gave players the ability to buy things called peas that you could crack open and get a bunch of that particular spell component only the pea was 5bu while the 20 or 40 things you got from it were each 4bu so it saved a ton of burden and allowed players to litterally carry days worth of in game hunting time components. Peas were 1.5x as much as buying the components straight out but since you spent less time worrying about restocking and could better pick and choose the pricey loot to take back to sell it didnt help the situation really (although it did fix some other issues.

    Next they added a new spell component called a platinum scarab. Prior to the plat scarab the most expensive component was a pyreal scarab which was 1k, the plat scarab was about 50k. This helped things slightly but really didnt change too much in the grand scheme of things since most people didnt actually have the ability to use them and you didnt actually *need* to use them.

    Then they did a bunch more things to "soak up money"....

    Then they somewhat fixed the real problem and made direlands shops no longer buy at 120-150% of an item's price. Unfortunately players and the game itself has grown dependant on players needing X amount of cash to be able to do their thing, now that they are getting <X they need to spend quite a bit of time just making cash.

    While money sinks are "nice" in that they help prevent inflation, if you neglect to fix the actual problem you will always need to make bigger and better money sinks. Since nobody "needs" a bigger apartment (im not even sure where mine *is*) a money sink of a larger apartment isnt all that useful to players and would just be dropped the moment that cash flow started to go negative, leaving you with the problem of having to make bigger and better hurt sticks or bigger and better toys to be able to use the hurt sticks longer faster better etc.... but eventually you have to go and fix the root problem and at that point your money sinks become a hinderance to the game

  14. #34

    Red face hmm

    quotes from Vrach

    -But better than that, I think, would be a nano-recharging "nurse" who would (for ingame description) help the preparation and casting of heals by providing their own nanobots. Basically, they would perform like the MP's healing pet, but heal NANO energy. This would GREATLY boost the role of docs in combat; the thing that pisses me off most about aggros is that you can't nano recharge. Say, give the Nurse 2x or 4x the doc's nano energy, and basically have it regen the doc's nano like a humidifier. Casting it woudl take a while and a lot of nano energy.
    -

    Like the idea but it will never happen. Could u imagine the uproar from NTs? The agro is a way to balance out docs. If we did have a "nurse" we could heal almost non stop even with agro. Think about if we had humid and a crunch type nano on too. Well be non stop healing machines.

    -Secondly, docs should have a cancel-poison line. It should just cancel poisons, or counter their effects. Or perhaps a vaccination buff to prevent DoT. -

    We do have a NF that cancels out poison Epsilon Purge but its broken a worthless piece of...nm

    -Thirdly; trade skills. THe blood plasma is neat and all, and has saved MY ass, but I really think that docs should be able to make nano recharges, too. It would help a lot to cut down our costs (I really don't think other profs understand exactly how much competent docs can spend in nano energy on ONE hunting trip. I usually grab 100 rechargers, and I usually use most of them. When I say "hunt", I don't mean standing around like a twit and taking down one orange mob; I mean standing on a red social aggro spawn point and fighting. Doing the former, it is easy to just stand there and rake in XP and cash.) -

    I agree with this I want to make my own nano packs. Not because of cost, because how much nano they give. Im using ql 125 packs and they are not cutting it anymore. ( have a stash of emergency ql 165 nano rechargers that ill only use if it gets crazy :chest loot:: )

    I fall into the catergory of "I have so much money I dont know what to do with it" I only spend money on chargers and stims. Thats pretty much it. I give beggers (Only lvl 15 abnd below) money whenever they ask. Hell I give a crap load of money away. I was a lucky one, found my plane in a chest. Money pools up real fast even though I give all my mission loot away (the useful stuff of course) and still I come out in positive.

    Yes there needs to be something that high lvl char can blow there loot on. Perhaps some kind of gambling machine for items (yes the mission terms are sort of like a slotmachine). Put in X amount of cash ..have X % chance of getting item. Sorta of like the gambling thingy on diablo

    Since almost all high lvl char are in orgs. A good fix would be get the damn org bonus working. Paying upkeep constantly will steadly bring down the money pool of high lvl char. (tax could be set different by leader dependent on class/ lvl etc.)

    swick out
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    -Any moron with a pack of matches can start a fire. Raining down sulfur takes a huge level of endurance. Mass genocide is the most exhausting activity one can engage in, next to soccer.- Dogma

    -It hurts doesn't it? Your hopes dashed, your dreams down the toilet. And your fate is sitting right besides you. - Rounders



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  15. #35
    It is actually very clear why we have money inflation and it is ofcourse the fact that money is not flowing out of the game but instead circulating from player to player.

    Now why are some players rich and some are not? I earlier gave this doc example Auno. Why he has money? He made a swift and intelligent move to gain from FC (yes FunCom) rule change and peoples lazyness. The moment tank armor was nerfed he was already on the ground and running. In few short moments he camped mission terminals for Primus Decus Coats and took the mission to the spot that usually gives small dungeons (for some reason certain locations are most of the time same type dungeon, again something that intelligent player notes up and memorizes). He then sold those for 30M. He also ran some QL 200 Novas that sold for 25M, Maussers for 12m, etc...

    You wanna be rich? It is still relatively easy. Look what people want most NOW and go do them. There is always a big need for some equipment, problem is, some of it are now boss monster items but there are still actually items that are real low QL and fetch you several millions (certain instruction disc's come to mind ).

    Also, do missions only for good stuff and unless it truly IS impossible, dont give up. This doc friend of mine still runs max hard missions at lvl 124. Sure he dies some but at the end he usually can map out the missions (just take one to location near save) and gets the item. Sometime it takes 20 tries, sometimes it takes 1 and rarely, it will be impossible. Anyways since he has selected to do a mission with GOOD item he knows he will get several millions from it.

    So dont give me any BS that "I cant do mission". Everyone can and it only needs patience and knowledge and luck (I mean how hard it is to run 12 room mission cave ).

    Ok. So now we know everyone can get money (sure, some easier than another) its time to think how to fix it.

    Money sinks. The obvious solution. Problem is, that they cant become MUST items (since you will otherways gimp those who still dont have time/patience/skill to get high worth items and when money is gone from game, prices of items go down and getting those will be hard). Thats why item that gives + nanoskills and cost 10M is not a good idea.

    Some good ideas are colors to Yalmaha etc which are not MUST but which people will most likely to do.

    Conclusion:

    Make money sinks that are desirable but which dont give direct game benefit.

    Zarch and bunch of other chars

  16. #36
    I've been thinking about this for some time...

    Won't making armour and weapons that perform differently for different levels of overequipping (as Gaute is suggesting on the news page just now) lead to even more inflation? You buy one high QL Mausser or one set of High QL Tech-Armour and never spend again until you outgrow it...

    At the moment weapons and armour are two of the major money sinks in the game, they require constant maintenance to keep up. If you get varying usage out of your armour depending on your skill levels you'll make the money situation even worse, won't you?

    Just my 2p's worth...

    Hoss.
    "Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?" - Robert Browning

    Leroy "Hossley" Prabel
    Lv 82 OT Fixer - RK1

  17. #37

    Re: hmm

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Swicky
    quotes from Vrach

    Like the idea but it will never happen. Could u imagine the uproar from NTs? The agro is a way to balance out docs. If we did have a "nurse" we could heal almost non stop even with agro. Think about if we had humid and a crunch type nano on too. Well be non stop healing machines.


    Well, it doesn't need to be that fast. Considering that my main heal usually is a good 15-20% of my nano energy, and I can throw off 2 every few seconds, it would take an insanely unbalanced nurse to fulfill that need. I'm thinking something that would be a lot slower than constantly refilling; and besides that, if it runs out after 3-4 cycles, its effectiveness in long term combat would be much lower; and in short term combat, it would be pointless. It is a matter of economy. Anyhow, the entire concept of sitting down and using a nano recharger in battle is stupid. :-/

    As for NTs, I love a party with NTs, because they can throw humidifier on me; I don't see them having any more a right to get pissed at us for having lower level humidifiers than we do to get pissed at half of the other professions for having low level heals.
    Aleksei "Zagadka" Garcia - Savior, Council Clerk
    Cindi "Razishlyat" Bolieu - Advisor Eternalist

  18. #38
    Re to Zarch:

    A few problems with that; not everyone's character can role play as a merchant.

    The primary deal with inflation is that at high levels, the concept of level becomes kinda pointless, as opposed to the importance of a 5 level difference at TL2, 50 levels means even less above 100. People commonly get to lev120 and max everything out, have QL200 equipment, and run QL200 levels. They get the best loot, and have no expenses. Sibnce they can sell things to everyone for millions (because everyone has the money), it eventually gets twinked to lower level characters, who drive up the market purchase price of common (esp non-QL specific) items.

    I've never gotten anything really good from a mission. I suppose some people are luckier than others, but I've been playing since day 1, and I have 2 characters with over 150 missions completed, plus several other low level ones. I have "more money than I know what to do with" now - all 310,000 creds worth of it, and I won a good chunk of that. Most I've ever had, and I can't find anything I need to buy. I find many things in missions as loot or rewards. I've only bought armor ONCE, from Tappert. My biggest expense is nano programs and rechargers, random charity, and clothing for some events. I'm not terribly comfortable with that. I'm raking in decent amounts of money now.

    I think that one of the main problems is that you stop needing to buy things as often as levels go up, but mission rewards also go up a great deal; making more and needing to spend less, plus finding the goodl oot items. It is a combination of this that is causing the problem...
    Aleksei "Zagadka" Garcia - Savior, Council Clerk
    Cindi "Razishlyat" Bolieu - Advisor Eternalist

  19. #39

    Red face Cash Woes

    AO's economy is shaken due to the influx of tens of millions [and possibly hundreds of millions] of credits purchased from E-Bay for real money, flooding an economy with cash causes inflation.

    Cosmik- I think the majority of players with decent money earned it properly and respectfully, they should NOT be punished!

    But if it can be identified that somehow people purchased their credits, then some kind of action should be taken.

    Now if the fix is to just make "uber cool" things to buy, consider this my Chrismas List.

    Player controlled Juggernaughts, Tanks - they move slow but do great damage. Used for those real tough outdoor areas.

    Bigger, better apartments with windows and a view and interior features that need to be rented for big bucks.

    Make "Lush Resort" a true rentable place with really fancy high end interiors, 50k a night just as originally advertised [and make sure groups can get in by key duplicator or whatever].

    That should get some credits flowing.

  20. #40
    You want a credit sink? Housing is a good way to do it. Giving us luxury apartments would certainly do the trick. I know I would be willing to pay some creds to keep a nice pad. Guild housing is another one. My guild would certainly pay fees for a nice guild fortress/building.

    Vehicle refueling is not a bad idea, but refilling too often would annoy me, and the fuel price should not be a fortune. Im not sure if the vehicles at this time in the future are fuel free, but its not that bad of an idea. The downside is that this would be a nerf I suppose. You never had to pay before to use it, and now you do..... Maybe its not that great of an idea for that reason..

    Wait a minute! Here is an idea, why not let players run the clubs and decorate them and collect door fees to get in? They could pay the lease for the building or something. I think that might be a neat idea.

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