Why we are adding level requirements on all future nano formula

[_____________Paldorr]

Thanks for the explaination, Andrew and Cosmik. Makes perfect sense to me.

[______________Kaskin]

Funcom:

The results of your patch 14.4 will be as follows (not necessarily presented in the order of importance)

1) NT's, MP's and Engys now have much less reason to invest in Tradeskills such as Nanoprogramming (the biggest Tradeskill in the game) due to the level requirements upon nanos making the use of high QL implants utterly pointless. This will result in these players having a large ammount of free ips to spend in Assault Rifle, Ranged Energy, Flingshot, Burst and Full Auto. Explain to me exactly HOW this balances the game?

2) NanoBreed are now horribly nerfed and Atrox are the best breed bar none, for anything. Guess thats an atrox MP with a novaflow.

3) Your player base quits in droves.

4) Your company goes bankrupt, its (rather transparent) attempt to generate 'must have' status for its forthcoming expansion pack having backfired rather horribly.

5) You all get to join the unemployment queues. Enjoy


And some final notes - to all those who LIKE these level reqs: You deserve the hell you are now left in

to those who, like me, are leaving: good luck guys, maybe we will find someone competent to create our next world, 'cos this one is broken



Date of registration 2002-03-23 01:43:38 UTC
Account status Open until 2002-07-21
Subscription is cancelled
Next billing Not scheduled



And finally: If you want to do your selves a big favour, you will immediately take the servers down and release a de-patch. I MIGHT come back if that happens within my subscription time.

[Ensignm]

Thank you Cosmik and Mr. Griffin. Having read the explanation it makes a lot more sense to me. However there is one problem with handeling issues in this manner and imho it's a returning problem.

The problem is it looks like damage control and that does not help building trust between the players and FC. as with a lot of changes you will find that people don't like changes, it's psychological so you can't change it , you can however make a change more acceptable when you tell people why you have to change something.

you would have saved yourself and us a lot of trouble if you had someone explain this before the change was made. As I said earlier it helps in giving the players the idea that there is comunication between FC and players, not just damage control if the public outcry gets to loud to be ignored, which a lot of people think is happening at the moment. It wouldn't take the developers very long to write a brief description of what is changed and why. It will take a lot less time then having to ask a developer to write an explanation asap. And maybe, provided these kind of changes are discussed in meetings of the live team, you or CZ could write them yourself. It would save you the trouble of having to read dozens of threads all flaming you and FC for another "nerf" and having to get a billion PM's the moment you log on to IRC asking you wtf you think, you are doing.

Besides I can't imagine having to read all those whines and personal attacks are your idea of a having a fun job.

[___________Evilspork]

New sig.

[______________Scorus]

Originally posted by Crin
How out of sync are the level requirements with the skill requirements?

Very. Example: the new ql 47 adventurer pistol buff. It has a level req of 50. A Solitus adventurer with decent (NOT the best they could do) implants could load it self-buffed at level 40. They could easily load it without buffs at level 45. This isn't a question of over-equipping, it is a question of forcing under-equipping because an expansion due out in 6 months that they just started working on two months ago is going to require it. Uh-huh.

What this really does is dumb-down the game. In the past those that were smarter about their implants had an advantage and could load nanos sooner. This was of paramount importance to the non-weapon-using professions (NT, MP, crat, engineer, doc). Now, it won't matter if you know the system or are dumb as a stick, you will get that nano when everyone else does.

Scorus

[Balderac]

So DONT make the damn expansion!!!

I'd rather have a game that is worth playing than having a goddamned expansion pack.

If this is the way it will be, I quit. Bye suckers.

Im so dissapointed now, it hurts.

[___________Zeroshift]

I still don't like it.

What the hell is the point of the specializations if you can't take advantage of them by using nanos earlier?

[Aristaeus]

Originally posted by Crin
Actually, I have a question to the players now since I havn't tried any of the level locked nanos.

How out of sync are the level requirements with the skill requirements?

If the level requiremets only limit extreme overequiping, i.e. getting skill buffs to cast the nanos from characters many levels above you, then I would have to say that I am 100% behind the change. On the other hand if the level limits are too high and you are more likely to hit the level limit before than the skill limit then it is a major problem for the game.

I'll think I use an example for this
Ballad of the Desperado needs spy mod & sense imp at 479

take a lvl 100 solitus
implant ql 100 implants (own level), add expertise to either of the two requirements that you don't use the shining cluster for (they conflict). This enables you to use it. 483 on the lowest of the two skills.
IMO this is completely stupid enforcement of what the developers think you as a player should be able to do.
Reason?
At this level you got more then enough treatment & abilities to get into ql125 implants without even haveing to ask a doc for buffs, you just need a full omni med suit.
Even worse you can already have those implants in at lvl 80 without outside help.

At level 80 you can without outside help & ql 125 implants get
480 on one skill and 450 on the other. Since Psy mod & Sense imp are not green they don't cap till around level 90 or 95 and raise by 4.75 points per level (4 skill, .75 ability dribble) this means you can selfbuff into this Ballad of the Desperado at level 87 (86 if you are a nanomage).

Now if we are going to use buffs you can use this one 10 levels earlier if you get masteries (common buff). at lv 77 you need minor implants or buffs to get the required ability levels and the omni med suit + expertise treatment buff to get into the ql 125 implants.

I admit that the omni med suit is a bit more then usual but I expect a player who has gotten to 75+ to at least know of it's existence and how to get one.

[Ulltima]

Cosmik, I can understand that you're trying to get us ready for Shadowlands. Fine. But why did you have to let the devs do something this ****ing stupid?

Shadowlands isn't even in beta yet (I'm assuming that's correct), and you guys are already using us - ALL OF US - as test subjects for the expansion pack. This is unaccpetable. Get rid of these level-based nanos and get the beta test server up and running for SHadowlands, THEN implement your new rules system there. Tweak it there. Nerf it there. Keep it the hell away from the live servers until it is ready... not when the CEO says it is, but when the programmers - the people who develop the game and who truly matter - say it is.

This is one of the worst decisions I have seen in my limited MMORPG experience. DAoC nerfed my character into oblivion... now it seems that the professions hardest hit over the last few patches are going to be smacked-down yet again in a game I truly enjoyed. AO reminded me a lot of Shadowrun, the old pen-and-paper RPG put out by FASA, Inc. before they went out of business. Now it's probably becoming a mockery of its former self... just because they couldn't help but implement changes before they were considered to be properly balanced in a testing environment.

Nice job, Funcom. You are the weakest link. Take the walk of shame. I am cancelling my account as of midnight tonight... and I will not be back.

[Darkbane]

Originally posted by Scorus


Very. Example: the new ql 47 adventurer pistol buff. It has a level req of 50. A Solitus adventurer with decent (NOT the best they could do) implants could load it self-buffed at level 40. They could easily load it without buffs at level 45. This isn't a question of over-equipping, it is a question of forcing under-equipping because an expansion due out in 6 months that they just started working on two months ago is going to require it. Uh-huh.

What this really does is dumb-down the game. In the past those that were smarter about their implants had an advantage and could load nanos sooner. This was of paramount importance to the non-weapon-using professions (NT, MP, crat, engineer, doc). Now, it won't matter if you know the system or are dumb as a stick, you will get that nano when everyone else does.

Scorus

Except, as explained (not very clearly I admit), these nanos have *lower* skill requirements than they would otherwise have and hence the level requirement (which is there to ensure they are not used too early) *is not* in sync with the skill requirements. trying to compare these nanos with any pre 14.4 nanos won't work, they are not being built to the same rules.

I *could* have this wrong mind you, but I'm pretty sure that is what was said.

Oh, and Ensign M, well said.

[Waffen]

Except Cosmik stated:

"To make things clear, the way nano programs are created have not been altered at all."

[Dhurdahl]

Originally posted by Scorus


Very. Example: the new ql 47 adventurer pistol buff. It has a level req of 50. A Solitus adventurer with decent (NOT the best they could do) implants could load it self-buffed at level 40. They could easily load it without buffs at level 45.

Well....

It goes in waves.... the first one can always be gotten into before that level, but the higher ones is almost at the next step...

Take Pack Hunter MM/PM/SI 316, I uploaded that one at aprox lvl70.. (lvl75 is the next step)
I got GH at 72 and could have had the skills for Sharpen Claws (first lvl75 nano) at 74... at 76 I started to use it..

Now this is selfbuffed only and no special stuff at all.


I really don't see the big problem here... They came quite nicely spread from lvl50 to 70..
Sure if I used lots of external buffs I could have used those earlier but since they come in steps.... It isn't that bad actually.

The only problem I can see is the past lvl190 nanos... not many can use those... but is perhaps the idea... I don't know.

[_____________Chaingu]

Originally posted by chown


I asked him on IRC, He said that the first was deleted because it was a flame. What I did was this:



Then i said "morons"

Apparently thats a deleteable post. So was the one where I asked where my post went. So will this one be no doubt.

I keep wondering how the hell we're supposed to trust COsmik to look into the abusive Gms when hes abusing his powers here. Not that it matters, because I am gone at the end of the billing cycle.

edit: Deleted post. My apologies to Chown. Am at work and just received bad news (more lay-offs) and took it out on you. Sorry, was uncalled for.

[_____________lichoon]

Here are my questions:
1) Whats point of the breeds if your skill don't matter anymore.
2) Are you going to make all exsisting Nanos(pre-14.4) level req too?
3) how are you going to fix MPS(they live on mochams) and classes that depend of OEed nanos(crat charm line, for example) if you do?

I am seriously thinking of quitting if you add Level reqs to the crat charm nanos(making a useless line more useless).

[_____________Chaingu]

OK, Andrew and Cos, I buy it. It seems reasonable, depending on how the expansion works. Guess I will have to hang around till then and find out.

I apologize for all the nasty things I was thinking about you.....well, maybe not ALL of them.

[____________Kyrrilea]

I have to wonder how anyone can read the explaination given and some how arrive at the conclusion it makes any sense at all. Maybe because it's so confusing people want to cover up the fact they have no clue what it said by agreeing with it? Or, they are just in "defend Funcom mode" to the point they don't read the stuff before agreeing with it?

Let me make this as simple as possible.

1.Using the CURRENT skill pool, it is very possible for players, using less than maxed implants for their level and for the most part only buffs they can currently self cast, to meet the skill requirements many levels before the current level limits.

2.Funcom's reason for these level limits is that there will be new uber buffs and skill buffing items in the expansion pack. They want to prevent players six months from now from being able to cast the current new nanos at a trivially low level using the new skill buffs that will be available in the expansion. Stop right there and read the previous paragraph again please.

Reread the two paragraphs again until you understand why paragraph two makes zero sense after understanding paragraph one.

With out any new uber skill buffs from the expansion, in fact, often with nothing other than decent implants and current self buffs, players already find themselves in a situation where the level limits are delaying casting of nanos by many levels. This being the case, why even bother adding any new skill buffs in the expansion? You run into the level limits on nanos with out the "uber buffs", why the heck would you then need the uberbuffs in the first place?

Basically, they want to create new uber nanos in Shadowlands that have casting skills so high that the only way you will be able to cast them is to obtain all available uber buffs. It won't be enough to have the best implants and maximum level, you will need that plus the new uber buffs.

By it's very nature, we are thus talking about ubernanos that only the smallest handfull of players will ever be able to cast, even then only after jumping through many hoops. As the price of offering this "reward" to the dozen or so most fanatical and devoted players, the rest of us will just have to live with being screwed by ill tuned level limits?

Look, this makes almost no sense at all, tick off much of the player base now, so we can offer uber nanos to a handfull of players six months from now.

Even if the devs can not be disuaded from this goal of uber nanos and uber buffs meant for .01% of the player base, they still have gone about this all in the most insane manner. There are other alternatives:

1.) Level limits in principle might not be a bad thing, if the limits themselves made sense in the context of the Shadowland uber explanation. The level limits are preventing players with good implants and self buffs from using nanos today, with out any uber buffs entering the picture. This is wrong, if the intent is only to allow the inclusion of uber buffs in future expansions.

What would be acceptable level limits? What is the absolute lowest level, with maxed implants and full utilization of the CURRENT skill base, (including self and non-self buffs and available buff items) that a nano can be cast? This should be the starting point of any level limits. No player, using the current skill base and buffs, should be prevented from casting a nano now because of uber buffs coming six months from now! I say starting point because then, if you wanted to make it so the new uberbuffs in Shadowlands could have SOME positive effect on the ability to cast nanos when they become available, it might make sense to make the level limit 90% of the absolute lowest level the nano could be cast at today.

2.) The logic being stated today makes it hard to believe that level limits will not be applied retroactively to old nanos in the future. If Funcom is so concerned about the new nanos being castable at trivially low levels, then the nanos currently with out level limits today will obviously need them. If this is the case, then why not save all level limits, for old and new nanos, until Shadowlands debuts? I would still think that solution 1 above would make most sense when determining any level limits for the new uber buff world of shadowlands, but why selectively apply limits to any nanos now if all nanos will need them in six months?

3.) If the goal is really to enable new uber nanos that only uber players with uber buffs and uber items can cast, why not just add a new skill? Make it so that you can't earn "Uberskill" pt's with IP. You get trickledown from abilities as you do now, but "Uberskill" will never be high enough to cast any Ubernanos unless your abilities are near maxed AND you collect the new "uberskill" buff items and can secure "uberskill" buffs from others. You create a system that allows the new uber nanos that Funcom is fantasizing about, limits the casting of those uber nanos to highest level characters, which even then need help from other items and buffs, all that and you no longer have any need to nerf everyone else to make it all possible!!!

The explaination given provides zero justification for the nerfing of pre-Shadowlands nanos. Even if one buys the arguement that allowing for uber nanos in the future for a miniscule portion of the player base, at the expense of everyone else, makes sense, it doesn't have to be a situation we we all have to lose now so those few can win later. There are alternatives, some ideas given above, that would address the design goals of Shadowlands with out nerfing a single person or nano designed between the beginning of the game and that future expansion that is still six months away!

[Ditka]

Hey Dai or CZ, tell Cos to take me off ignore so he sees this, I'd really like it passed on. (And unless someone specifically asks me a question b4 the account runs out, its my last post)

Its about faith.

For a long time most of the player community has had faith in you guys. We knew you were screwing the game up, even when you didn't, but we had faith that you were TRYING to fix it. That you were TRYING to make it more fun to play. The way 14.4 has been steamrollered over the previously unheardof vocality of the player community (irrespective of the actual content of 14.4) has taken that away from many of us.

Go check the fixer forums. They finally get thier balancing patch and whats happened? A lot of them are quitting. Why? Because they've lost faith in your intent to fix the game. The horribly contradictory "all is well, move along please" post from the nano-devs about the reasons for level reqs illustrate the problem very well.

I play a MP, FC's supposed love child. I'm high level, posess almost all the "uber items" I'll ever need, and IPR allowed me to rebuild my character to my exact (and much better) specifications, yet I quit. Why? I lost faith in the direction you are taking this game, moreover, I lost faith in your willingness to heed or even value our input.

I know, I know, its almost certianly not the community team's "fault". But then again, they act as the face of FC, and its thier 'job' to represent us to the devs. Either the dev group ignores us or they do. Whichever way it is, its a shame.

Anarchy Online had all the potential and player community it ever needed to become a true monolith in the gaming world. AO could have gone on for years. But eventually, even the MAs will get pissed and leave. I tried all day to come up with a reason to continue investing my time in AO, and even though theres currently no competition out there for it, I can't see any reason to continue playing the game or paying your salaries.

I really do wish it had worked out differently, I had such high hopes for AO. But you've shown that my concerns are not yours, and that I should have no expectation of your valuing them.

Hey Cos, after the account closes, when its too late to come back, change my name, for old time's sake?

[__________Windrunner]

So basically.. let me see if I get the gist of this.

Because, in six or so months, there is an expansion coming out, that we may or may not buy, we are getting screwed in our new buffs.

This is completely and totally unacceptable.

I really don't care if there are uber buff items in the expansion. I don't care if casting QL200 nanos requires 6 skill in the expansion... if the level requirements are going to be added, they need to be added retroactively. I'm sure I'll get a lot of hate for this, but this was not cool.

I am also very upset that you didn't bother to talk about this. For WEEKS people screamed on the Fixer boards, Adventurer boards, and next patch boards... and you refused to talk. Now that it's too late for us to say anything, you decide "oh, now that it's done, here's why." Bad form, I say. You should have come out right in the beginning and said "hey, this is what we're doing.. nanos will have level requirements, and here's why" instead of letting people find out from AUNO's database.

Let's be a little more upfront and honest with customers please? I'm not at all happy about this, and my Adventurer still sits in temporary retirement, just out of principle.

[Aristaeus]

Warning: Get coffee and a lazyboy this is a long post

Originally posted by Cosmik
From Andrew Griffin, nano designer:-

<snip>

One of the benefits of these types of games (MMOs) is that it can be an expanding system. Patches and expansion packs allow new dynamics to be added to the game, enhancing the playing experience. This can change the scope of the game beyond that originally envisioned. With an expansion pack, we can go past the original barriers in the game. However, we need to take care that these new additions do not end up swamping and destroying the rest of the game. It is for this reason that level requirements are being added to new nanos.

The way that the take care to not destroy the game part is handled is in my opinion extremely poor. It is the easy way out. Giving me the feeling that the developers are fed up of being outsmarted by the players who will not stick to their Vision™.
Like I showed in the example a few posts back of using what are common items in the game to be able to use one of those level restricted nano's not at the level that the design document said it should be used but 13 (14 for nanomage) levels earlier.

In the expansion pack we are going to be increasing the skill budget that we have by a very large amount. These extra skill buffs will come from new, better and higher quality level items, nanos, implants, modified skill caps, other unannounced methods, etc. This skill budget is important because we use that budget both for determining how much we can buff skills, but also the skill requirements that are used for nanos.

With these new skill levels that players will be able to reach sometime after the expansion pack is released, it will mean that using the current scale of skill requirements for nanos will make the highest level nano useable at a trivial level. Adding level requirements on nanos means that new nanos that are made before the expansion pack is released will still become available at the ‘correct’ level, rather than all the level 200 nanos being useable at level 100. Additionally, this will allow us to increase the skill budget even further later on, if that is something that we want to do.

This also means that all current nano's/weapons/armour/'you name it that has skill restrictions' will be severely reduced in the level needed to use it. The way the developers have currently chosen to get around this means that basically every single item that is now in the game will require level restrictions to prevent it being used at that trival level mentioned. This will turn the game in Everquest© meets cyberpunk.
The better way out would be to just re-evaluate every single item in the game and add new requirements to it to keep the average use level at what it currently is.
That would keep the benefits of the Nanomage breed in the nanoskill department, especially when the player in question has one or more of the unique items.
It would also preserve the ability to completely ignore in one or more skills so you can excel in one or two area's. This ability will be removed from the game if people know that they can't get the next nano they want for another x levels even though they've already got the skills to use it now so why not spend the points on some other ability first.

Adding level requirements now means that, even though we know what the skill budget will be expanded to with the expansion pack, we do not have to start implementing the full skill requirements on new nanos right now. Without level requirements, we would need to either make the effects of the nanos trivial - essentially turning level 200 nanos into level 100 nanos - or use the new skill budget to determine the skill requirements. This latter option would result in people being totally unable to use the higher level nanos until some time after the expansion pack. This is obviously not something that we wanted to do - there is no point adding lots of new nanos that would be literally impossible for any player to use for a long time.

The level 200 nano being used at level 100 was not that common but happened before the 14.2 patch. I've seen a few lvl 85 to 95 engineers run around with a slayerdroid (theorethical lowerlimit was/is 80 if I remember correctly).

Why not add nano's and other stuff that people can't use yet. Currently the high level game is one of been there, done that for the last 75 to 100 levels. It would be something that might keep the people, who lose interest in that part of the game, in the game.

And what is the difference between making it take a long time before people can use a nano and making it take a long time before people can use a nano since they are not yet level x.
I'll point out the difference:
The first allows people to get the nano before level x. The second doesn't give them any other option.

Since the release of Anarchy Online, the way the requirements on the nanos have been calculated has not been changed, even though more items have come into the world that buffs the nano skills. Additionally, the requirements were lenient, and did not assume that you always had 100% external buffs and 100% of the nano buffing items. 14.4 is the last patch using this old scale, and from 14.6 onwards the requirements will start to be higher than for existing nanos - although using the old skill budget, not the new budget, so will still be reachable using the current items and buffs. It is important to note, however, that it is not the intention that you will always be able to self-buff into the highest level nanos.

Actually they have. A ql 152 nano is rated for 47 NCU, except the new fixer ql 152 HoT which is rated at 25 NCU.
QL 152 nanos have a lower limit of 650 in the secondary & tertiary skills, what is more regular is that it requires 700 to 710 in all skills (primary requirement), Dr hack 'n quack has secondary & tertiary skill requirements of 60 below normal and a primary that requires 70 to 80 more then normal.

But I shouldn't be comparing Dr hack 'n quack with a 152 nano. I should compare it with a 195+ one since that is the earliest it can be used. Which presents a problem. I can't make a good comparison since there are only two proffesions who have nano's above 195 and then the requirements are insanely low. Like 200 short on the primary and 250 to 300 short on the secondary and tertiary requirements and 35 NCU short.

Anarchy Online is still a skill-based game in that you will need to invest in the skills to be able to use the new nanos. However, it is also a changing game, and this change will enable us to continue to make player-enhancing additions to the game without negatively affecting other areas.

This paragraph show how completely blind, I'm sorry I can't describe it in any other way, A. Griffen is towards the problem and what the problem is.
It is not the fact that people can't invest in skill any more that is the problem.
The problem is that someone somewhere far away from the game (that is how the players see this person) arbitrarily decides at what level item Y can be used going only on what is the completely average as per design spec developed character (like I've shown with the lvl 100 solitus adventurer with lvl 100 implants being able to exactly use the lvl 100 restricted ballad nano) and not what is possible in the game (the guilded/clanned/departmentalized lvl 87 solitus adventurer being able to use the same nano) or the extremes (lvl 68 [or lower]nanomage adventurer with all goodies to raise skills, maxxed implants & buffs).

People don't want to conform to the masses they want to stand out and that is what the current skill system with no restrictions (exception a few things that should have them) does. It allows people to stand out of the crowd. not be player number 13430432 who only differs from 13430431 in the fact that 13430432 uses BBI pistols while 13430431 uses a beam. Now one is remembered as mr/ms wolf since (s)he ran that morph 20 levels before any other adventurer people have met and the other is Mr shield for the same reason. They are different and remembered by those differences. That is what the game will lose with level restrictions on everything


Make an ingame poll. One that you want to fill out since it will keep popping up when ever you log in until either the next patch or you have filled it.
Ask people:
If they rather want to not be able to use some nano's and items until a few weeks have passed and the people who can get them the needed buffs items, implants, nano's start to pop up.
Or know they won't be able to use half a dozen or more nano's and other items until they reach the level required by the nano.

I dare to say that the majority of the people will go for a revamping of the requirements since that still allows them the possibilty that they will be able to use the nano's/items before level X at the sacrifice of skill in another field.

A tool to go through the item database and compare & change the requirements shouldn't be to hard to write.

[_______MartinDeShade]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kyrrilea

1.Using the CURRENT skill pool, it is very possible for players, using less than maxed implants for their level and for the most part only buffs they can currently self cast, to meet the skill requirements many levels before the current level limits.

1.) Level limits in principle might not be a bad thing, if the limits themselves made sense in the context of the Shadowland uber explanation. The level limits are preventing players with good implants and self buffs from using nanos today, with out any uber buffs entering the picture. This is wrong, if the intent is only to allow the inclusion of uber buffs in future expansions.

What would be acceptable level limits? What is the absolute lowest level, with maxed implants and full utilization of the CURRENT skill base, (including self and non-self buffs and available buff items) that a nano can be cast? This should be the starting point of any level limits. No player, using the current skill base and buffs, should be prevented from casting a nano now because of uber buffs coming six months from now! I say starting point because then, if you wanted to make it so the new uberbuffs in Shadowlands could have SOME positive effect on the ability to cast nanos when they become available, it might make sense to make the level limit 90% of the absolute lowest level the nano could be cast at today.

end quote

That type of level requirement I wouldn't mind at all. Just figure in the absolute lowest possible level for any breed to cast it with only self buffs, highest possible implants in, and an outside buff from a character at most 20% higher than you. That way an MP will still be just as useful as before, but still removing twinking by getting mochams or wrangles, too early. And let Nano breeds gain by their sacrifice of hitpoints.

Martin