Why we are adding level requirements on all future nano formula

[Ditka]

Since Cosmik has apparently decided that he dictates what I can or cannot say on this forum, I'll try to restate it differently:

The proposed reasons for the nanoline reqs are complete crap.
They could have EASILY added what ever top level nanos they wants w/o imposing level reqs by doing the following:

Make the new UberNanos ql 201-300. Its a FACT that the game supports items up to ql 400. Make the nanolines require skill levels that INCLUDE the new stuff in shadowlands.

Problem solved.

Unless of course you already know that the new stuff in Shadowlands wont be avaliable to more than 10% of the player base due to the campin that will take place.

But if thats the case then you've just ruined the game's main strength, AND nulified the reason to camp the items.

Either way you look at it, its contradictory.

[________________Crin]

Ok, here are the questions for the time period between now and the expansion pack:

• How will breed nano skill advantages have any effect for professions that have many level locked nanos?
  Won't the best breed be Atrox since nano skills won't matter?
  
• What is the point of the MP if players can't take advantage of the higher nano skills from their buffs?
  
• How can there be balance if some professions (the ones that needed the most help that caused the need for new nanos in the first place) will have their nanos level locked while other won't?
  
• What is the point of nano skill implants?
  
• Does Funcom think these changes will increase or decrease character diversity?
  
• Won't AO be crippled until the expansion comes?

[Nullifax]

Originally posted by Crin
Ok, here are the questions for the time period between now and the expansion pack:

• How will breed nano skill advatages have any effect for professions that have many level locked skills?
  Won't the best breed be Atrox since nano skills won't matter?
  
• What is the point of the MP if players can't take advantage of the higher nano skills from their buffs?
  
• How can there be balance if some professions (the ones that needed the most help that caused the need for new nanos in the first place) will have their nanos level locked while other won't?
  
• What is the point of nano skill implants?
  
• Does Funcom think these changes will increase or decrease character diversity?
  
• Won't AO be crippled until the expansion comes?

I think I can answer that for him so he doesn't get yelled at by his boss, lol.

1) Breed advantages still have an effect. That effect is, Atrox is best now.

2) There is no use for MPs now. We are planning on removing the class completely from the game in 14.8

3) There isn't balance. These classes are still gimped, only in a different way now.

4) No point in nanoskill implants now. You are now free to replace those with other skillbased implants

5) Funcom is unconcerned with diversity. This question is not aplicable.

6) Yes

*disclaimer* my opinions do not reflect the actual opinions of Funcom, and I am in no way affiliated with them except that I have paid them a monthly fee to use their software.

[Jayde]

This all stems from one major problem, it seems...

From everything I have heard from Funcom reps, Shadowlands will not move players past the level 200 cap at all.

This is silly. The level should be extended another 50-100 levels, and the new nanos/skills/caps/etc should scale similarly to what is in place now.

The level 195 caps placed on a number of nanos shows Funcom's plan to keep the majority of the high-level Shadowlands playing population sitting at level 195-200 for the rest of their lives, instead growing through the new skill system they're tacking on.

It may seem like an elegant approach to Funcom devs to tackle the issues with level reqs, but it is, in fact, quite a lazy one. The expansion pack SHOULD NOT have such a major effect on pre-Shadowlands levels/players to the point where game balance is completely screwed up to accomadate possible Shadowlands twinkers.

Bottom line? They should find a better way.

Of course, we know they won't. It's obvious Funcom devs "know best", and have no intention or willingness to listen to the vast majority of the players rallying against these changes. Funcom doesn't really feel the need to listen to the player-base, because they obviously have fallen into the "this is MY world, not theirs" trap of MMORPG/MUD developers.

To them, it really doesn't matter if most of the population doesn't like it. We're all just the "whining", "ungrateful" players who pay their salaries with our monthly subscriptions.

It's unfortunate that my account is pre-paid until August or September (can't remember), otherwise I would leave now. As soon as it's obvious the devs have gotten to the point of ignoring the players in defiance, it's probably time to move on to greener pastures.

-Jayde

[________________Crin]

Originally posted by JaydeStargunner
This all stems from one major problem, it seems...

From everything I have heard from Funcom reps, Shadowlands will not move players past the level 200 cap at all.

This is silly. The level should be extended another 50-100 levels, and the new nanos/skills/caps/etc should scale similarly to what is in place now.

Actually I think a good case can be made that by extending the level range you only promote level based gameplay. If new abilities are gained through other means than leveling, such as quests for instance, you'd have a nice twist to the game, and a way to jump off the level treadmill.

For example, DAoC has done a good job of extending character advancement through PvP combat.

[Cthonian]

OK, if i understand right, the only reason why they put level requirements in addition to skill requirements
is that there will be new nano skill buffs in Shadowlands, which would make a nano,
you can use now, say, at lvl 150 at lvl 100 then.

What i dont understand is WHY the hell are they adding these nano skill buffs AT ALL ?

You get a nano-skill Uber-Buff , so you can use an Uber-Nano ( nuke, hp buff etc. ),
so you can fight a Mob, that is stronger then everything we have seen before.
But does it really matter how strong will be these mobs in Shadowlands ?
Or in any other expansion pack ?

If most classes meet the skill requirements for nanos at the required level
even without the best possible implants
( i'm even not talking about special items like Pepper Pistos, Krutt, Pillows etc ) ,
then it IS no longer skill based game ( from my point of view )

So even it does matter for few ppl. to be able to hit for 2k instead of 1,5k or
take a 1k hit instead of 0.8k hit ( "wow... great hit, cool nano ..." LOL ),
is it really WORTH ro ruin may be not perfect but still working and quite enjoyable
skill system ( different then missions, where you just kill over and over and over again - mindless ) ?

I think most people would like to see in Expansion:
- new cool looking landscapes
- new cool looking cities
- new cool looking creatures
- new cool looking armor, weapons, social clothes etc.
- a lot of other stuffs like improved appartments etc., just take a look at Suggestions Forum
I also think most people would welcome creatures which behave different from the known ones,
some creatures which are less predicable, etc.,
something to break boredom

So why do they think, they NEED to add "uber" stuff in Shadowlands ?

[ThePartisan]

LOL!

You make nanos level-based... then you introduce NEW buffs later? Don't you understand that these new buffs will be useless when you must be level x to use the nano formula anyway???

Unless you plan to REMOVE level reqs later... which I don't think I'll live to see.

[Lazz]

I don't buy this explanation for level requirements, I'm sorry. If you want to introduce level-restrcitions on nanos you should evaluate each and every existing nano and make a decision from that for which to put level-requirements on. This explanation is doesn't explain why you're choosing do it just on the new ones, it's not like the new ones you're adding are any special compared to the ones you added a few month ago.

Originally posted by Cosmik
Without level requirements, we would need to either make the effects of the nanos trivial - essentially turning level 200 nanos into level 100 nanos - or use the new skill budget to determine the skill requirements. This latter option would result in people being totally unable to use the higher level nanos until some time after the expansion pack. This is obviously not something that we wanted to do - there is no point adding lots of new nanos that would be literally impossible for any player to use for a long time.

You can't honestly say that "We had to put level-restrictions on these nanos or the alternative is to put very high skills requirements on them". If this is you argument...

- How come there are level-restrictions on leet charms???
- How could it possible be overpowering to be able to cast the new Advent charms a few levels earlier when the only difference on them is how long they last?
- How could it be overpowering if an Advent can cast a +100 pistol buff at level 150 using mochams when engies have their +120 pistol buff availible much much earlier and that one can also be cast by agents and on everyone who wants it, not self only?

Your explanation about why you put level-restrictions on only the new nanos leaves a ton of questions and much worse, it doesn't make sense. Just tell the truth. Just say that you are afraid of the customer reactions if you put level-restrictions on all nanos and you think you could acceptance if you only did it on new ones. There you go, I spelled it out for you. Sorry if I sound harsh, it's just that I waited for something to be done for Advents so long and the postponements you have done has pushed these changes to today. If you had introduced these changes a few months back, we wouldn't have had level-restrictions on the new nanos. I want to play a skill based game, continue to, that is...

Like Mr. Spokk would have said; "Your logic is flawed."

[Oldbie]

Originally posted by Crin
Ok, here are the questions for the time period between now and the expansion pack:

• What is the point of the MP if players can't take advantage of the higher nano skills from their buffs?

First off, that's a great list of questions, Crin. I'd absolutely love to see official responses to them.

I do have one answer on the MP issue, though. MPs will be very useful, at least to those who care to plan around the level requirements. We'll be IP-savers! Consider:

- You want to cast your class-balancing/defining nano X. You sacrifice and pour IP into your nanoskills, and finally meet the skill requirements to cast it. Unfortunately, you are level Y, several levels (or many, if you are a nanomage and/or have shades/vest/nelebs) too low to use the nano, since the level requirement is Z and using it way down at level Y would be imbalancing (or something). When you hit level Z, you can cast it. An MP's skill buffs are of little use to you with regard to this nano.

- You want to cast your class-balancing/defining nano X. You pour your IP into your attack skills/evades/stats, and don't invest very heavily in your nanoskills because you know the nano is level limited anyway. When you get to level Z, you get your MP friends/guildies to give you masteries/infuses/mochams, and you cast the nano anyway, at the exact same level as everyone else in your class. MP nanoskill buffs just saved you a ton of IP!

At least, that's my take on it...

[Cthonian]

Originally posted by mcwatts

We'll be IP-savers!

Dont think so: most ppl. want to be able to solo as well.

[____________Customer]

I vote No.

[Routeen]

The main pts that I intended to make have been well covered: (props especially for Bionitrous, who saved me a lot of work )

But, I will put them in the form of questions, and see if we can get Cosmik et al. to give us some direct answers:

So:

1) What exactly is the pt of the expansion nano-skill adding gear and buffs? Why are these treated as the constant around which other changes need to be made?

Honestly, this strikes me as an incredibly poor idea.
a) introduce something that would imbalance the game
b) "fix it" by making sure it no longer has any real effect
c) in the process undermine the core mechanics the game is founded on

As others have indicated, having 2000 MC is not that exciting if you can do nothing new with it.

2) In what way is this not abandoning the skill system?

There are two factors here:
a) lvl requirements
b) the new buffs sound like they determine skill to a greater extent than ip expenditure, thus trivializing skills in relation to lvl

BTW, it is not an answer to this question to say AO is a skill based game, the answer we have gotten so far.


3) How can this possibly be balanced, unless you impose lvl requirements across all the existing nano lines?

i.e. if your "new buffs" make casting trivial, then everything except recent additions are going to suffer from this problem.

As far as I can tell, there are logically 3 possibilities here:

a) the problem doesnt exist, and lvl reqs. are unecessary
b) it does exist, and you WILL impose them on all nanos at some pt
c) you didnt notice or dont care about the problem

4) Exactly how do you intend to compensate nanomages?

both these buffs and the lvl requirements make the already crippled NM COMPLETELY unviable


This is not the finest way to usher in your 1 year aniversary, btw. These questions need answers so people can know what to expect, and then make informed choices btwn you, and your competitors....

[Windowlicker]

Your putting level req's on new nano's (Just in time for advents) ... because of the expansion pack?


What a lame excuse.


Of all the way's to string-people-along ... that's pretty low.

[____________Vennenka]

Ya know the biggest problem I have with your explanation cosmik is this. How the heck can you possibly in good concience expect anyone to buy your expansion when you can't get the original game you made to work right!?!?!?!?!

You gotta be kidding me. That is the most absurd thing I have ever read. And if you really believe what you typed all I can say is seek professional counsel.

If my class fixing pistol nanos (i'm an adventurer) has a level req then every other classes nanos had better have the same reqs. What I mean is that Brutal thug better have the same psy mod sense im reqs as ballad of pistollero and the same level req. Anything other than this is utter crap. Now since I know this won't happen your only other course of action is to either remove the level caps from the new nanos so you are not penalizing 3 classes/professions with reqs not shared by all other professions/classes or delete the classes in question and refund all the ip to the players playing them and let them start in the character creation area and make a new char with all the stored IP they now have.

All I can say is I have never been so disappointed at a decision made by a game dev in my life. The explanation is complete and utter hogwash.

[________________Crin]

Originally posted by mcwatts
- You want to cast your class-balancing/defining nano X. You pour your IP into your attack skills/evades/stats, and don't invest very heavily in your nanoskills because you know the nano is level limited anyway. When you get to level Z, you get your MP friends/guildies to give you masteries/infuses/mochams, and you cast the nano anyway, at the exact same level as everyone else in your class. MP nanoskill buffs just saved you a ton of IP!

Yea I kind of thought of that, but it is still a nerf. Instead of casting a nano higher QL than you normally should when you are with an MP, you are now only casting what is normal for your level. Remember too that what ever you would spend the extra IP on will not be as good as the nanos you are giving up. If it were, then you would have done that in the first place. So it is not even a good trade. (Maybe this is Funcom's plan to actually get people to invest in swimming)

Finally there are still nanos that aren't level locked so you would still want to raise your nano skills to use those like you currently do. I fear the end result will be that everyone will be limited by the level restrictions on the nanos that have them instead of the skill requiremets.

Bottom line is that an MP will do little to help out a Fixer or Adventurer right now and it will only get worse in the future.

[Darkbane]

OK Cosmik, if you want a question for the devs/designers to answer, here it is

Assuming my interpretation is correct, and these nanos have lower skill requirements than they would otherwise have (and the level requirement is to balance this) due to the effects Shadowlands will have - When Shadowlands is released, will players of the expansion find that these nanos will change to have their original intended skill requirements and QL, and as a result loose the level limit - in effect there will be two versions of the same nano, one for non-expansion plaers and one for expansion players?

(And I agree with others, none of this explains the 'leet friends' line... get them to explain that if they can...)

[EDIT - there are some good posts here, such as Bionitrous who can generally be relied on to post sense and reason, get the designers to read some of this stuff and provide more information, for now the answer is half baked.]

[Jayde]

Aww...forget it. Funcom doesn't deserve my money any more. I got enough subscription time to hold out until SWG or something else because of Buddy Subscriptions...

Account status Open until 2002-09-07
Subscription is cancelled
Next billing Not scheduled

-Jayde

[Zarrot]

Cosmik,

If I send you a dollar can you give it to Mr. Griffen so he can buy a clue. This is stupid. Why multiple breed and different skill choices when everything is going to be level capped. It's dumb and adding them now to solve a problem 6 months away is dumber.

[________________Crin]

Actually, I have a question to the players now since I havn't tried any of the level locked nanos.

How out of sync are the level requirements with the skill requirements?


If the level requiremets only limit extreme overequiping, i.e. getting skill buffs to cast the nanos from characters many levels above you, then I would have to say that I am 100% behind the change. On the other hand if the level limits are too high and you are more likely to hit the level limit before than the skill limit then it is a major problem for the game.

[Oldbie]

Originally posted by mcwatts

We'll be IP-savers!

I probably should have put <sarcastic> tags around that bit. My point was that the level reqs don't neccessarily devalue nanoskill buffs entirely, since people who have lacking nanoskills but the requisite level for a certain nano can find a use for them.

Cthonian: I agree. Not only do people want to be able to solo, they want to be able to cast a nano when they have the skills to do so, not when they meet the magical (read: arbitrary) level that Funcom has decided the nano "should" be used.