Why we are adding level requirements on all future nano formula

[Cosmik]

Originally posted by EvilSpork
I am also quite curious as to where both of Chown's posts went. Unfortunately I only saw the second one, which was deleted too.

Confidential to Chown: I have screenshots of the before and after of the second post if you're interested.

Chown knows where it went.

[_________Nostredomus]

Good explanation, and really makes sense.

I am sorry to see people so upset about you guys sticking to your guns and trying to maintain balance. I can see what it is you guys are doing, and you are making the right call for the long term viability of the game. These people that are so hot just can't understand that if you didn't put level requirements on them you'd have to jack the requirements on them up and then they'd be upset about that. No win situation. Keep going Funcom. You have improved the game a lot since the early days, and have restored my shaken confidence in you. I am glad I came back to the game a couple months ago to try it again.

To me, this is a non-issue. Let's face it.. AO has been suffering from the overequipping problem from early days. It has led to a lot of problems.

I am super glad to see them putting safety measures in place to balance the game. I would much rather see them put a level requirement on the nano then to jack the requirments up to unreal levels that make you IP sink to use something cool. (Can anyone say Grid Armor?).

And this is NOTHING new. Title caps were another way to do the same thing. Level limits on unique drops. It goes on. I applaud Funcom for having the guts to do the hard thing in the name of game balance. It is high time they do so.

NOW.. if people want to gripe about Funcom and some REAL problems in the game here is a good starter list of concerns with genuine merit:

1. Pet Pathing

2. Quests with HUGE bottlenecks and HORRID camping problems ( please funcom realize that this is not the route to take. Make the quests arduos and rely on hard work and dedication of time, but DON"T make it so people are fighting with each other to kill that spawn.. This is a very bad game design).

3. Make more weapons usefull instead of limiting it to a handful of weapons everyone uses. Variety is the ****e of life and MMORPG's.. it is just the nature of the beast that if certain weapons are the best... most will use that weapon and really detract from the huge variety of weapons you have in the game. Make it more a personal choice than forced to choose from a few weapons unless you want to hurt the ability of the character.

4. Fix Pit Dragon form for Adventurers properly. If you MUST take flight away for now until you can fix it properly, ok.. but don't stop at that bandaid on the wound. Get it healed.

Well... you get the idea. There are a lot of things to really be concerned about. Level limits on NEW nanos (not nerfs to old) are nothing to get all upset about. These new nanos are awesome and are designed to help balance the classes out.. putting safeguards in place to prevent them from being unbalancing in themselves in AWESOME. I only hope people won't automatically think Funcom is being evil in trying to put NEW and EXCITING fixes in game to balance by adding cool stuff. DON"T LOOK A GIFT HORSE IN THE MOUTH is a good expression to follow in this case.

I am speaking from someone that was in beta and early retail.. left a few months into retail due to SEVERE unbalances and technological issues (crashing and losing massive xp and even coveted items, etc.) and came back a couple months ago. Funcom has improved this game TREMENDOUSLY.

Funcom is taking the hard but smart path by putting a protective framework in place to preserve balance. It is still the MOST skill based system out there BY FAR. Level limits and Title limits are just tools to make sure things don't go too far in the opposite direction and they have to step in and nerf these cool new abilities. I think they are being smart about this, and hope they can stick to their guns.

[_______________Vydas]

I guess I would ask those of you that think this is the most super awesome wonderful thing that ever came down the pike, why do you play AO? What about this game makes you play it, instead of any other?

[_________Nostredomus]

Immersion - Sound and Graphics really draw me in

Fantastic Futuristic Environment

Diversity - Awesome diversity of professions and abilities

Depth - Implants, Nanos, Armor, Boss Loot, Static Dungeons, Storyline, New Expansion coming soon, Amazing Customizing of characters (though weapon variety and armor variety needs to be improved.. making ONE version of a weapon or armor the best is grounds for too much sameness),

Mission Generators - Oh.. going to get blasted by many, but the fact remains I LOVE being able to do missions without fighting over camps or shouting LFG for hours in Seb.. same with DAOC, AC, etc.. The best spots were always camped. Funcom needs to fix the static dungeons and encounters somehow to get away from camp fighting, but at least missions are viable way to avoid that huge hassle

That is just a few of the top of my head... The game is fun if you don't come here and get all caught up in the constant griping for the sake of griping. There are genuine problems that Funcom still needs to improve. Game balance was one of the biggest and finally they are doing that. Hopefully they will attack the other issues with the same zeal.

[______________Scorus]

Funcom,

Given this:

With these new skill levels that players will be able to reach sometime after the expansion pack is released, it will mean that using the current scale of skill requirements for nanos will make the highest level nano useable at a trivial level.

Do you still contend that you will not put level restrictions on the old nanos? You are going to be comfortable with the fact that Nano Shutdown, Izgimmer's Last Word, Total Mirror Shield Mk X, Alpha and Omega, etc. are going to be available to characters "at a trivial level"?

Many new MMORPGs are coming out soon. It does not take an MBA to know that customers choose companies that give them what THEY want over companies that give them what IT wants every time.

Scorus

[georg]

Well, Having caps on the HIGH level nanos, intended for shadowlands but with lower reqs / capped instead of high reqs / uncapped, ok , I can somehow understand that. BUT

Why have level reqs on alot of nanos in the upcomming patch for the advens, fixers, Even the charm leet has a level req!?!?

All those new nanos have a level requirement while 80-90% of them has _nothing_ to do with shadowlands or the high level game!

[Darkbane]

Originally posted by Cosmik


I know. It happens alot that way. I'll be bringing up the follow-up questions with Andrew et al and bringing you answers.

Great Cos, now i just need to figure out what the new question actually are heh!

[PhoenixKebab]

So these level requirements are being included so that the Shadowlands super-buffs (i.e. 1000pt Mochams would not be too unreasonable an assumption - but what would the level reqs on that?) can be controlled.

Unless they retrofit this to all existing buffs, the only way to make the existing buffs irrelevant is to make the new buffs so massive that a 131 Wrangle or a 140 Mochams seems tiny in comparison.

No need to raise any nano skills in Shadowlands then, just get a super-mochams/mega-wrangle and you can cast anything where you meet the level reqs - all without a single IP in nano skills.

FUNCOM - look at the levels and post counts of some of the people that are leaving because of this fiasco. And please rename the Community forum to something more appropriate - just putting "Anti-" in front of it would do.

[Ditka]

Originally posted by EvilSpork
I am also quite curious as to where both of Chown's posts went. Unfortunately I only saw the second one, which was deleted too.

Confidential to Chown: I have screenshots of the before and after of the second post if you're interested.

I asked him on IRC, He said that the first was deleted because it was a flame. What I did was this:

Originally posted by Cosmik
From Andrew Griffin, nano designer:-

Blah blah blah blah (restated thier points in what i thought was a more clear way: Stuff like "We're too incompetent to do this right" yadda yadda

Then i said "morons"

Apparently thats a deleteable post. So was the one where I asked where my post went. So will this one be no doubt.

I keep wondering how the hell we're supposed to trust COsmik to look into the abusive Gms when hes abusing his powers here. Not that it matters, because I am gone at the end of the billing cycle.

[Myers]

Some people say there is no reason to keep playing the game once you get to a certain high level. One of the reasons they are doing this(I imagine) is to get the game have more stuff at higher levels.

[PhoenixKebab]

Here's a first guess at what the level requirements would need to be on some nanos that allow you to overequip. General buffs have been left out, as have buffs that have no relationship to over equipping (i.e. evade buffs, runspeed buffs, shields, etc.).

This is based on the fact that the SELFCAST +120 multiwield nano for Adventurers requires a character level of 195. I've just directly scaled the numbers up. (Note: If they scale this like the low-end/middle of the Fixers SMG buff line, then the level required is about the same as the bonus you get.)

MP
Teachings +25 = Level 41
Mastery +50 = Level 81
Infuse +90 = Level 146
Mochams +140 = Level 228

Trader
Wrangle +56 = Level 91
Superior Wrangle +85 = Level 138
Greater Wrangle +114 = Level 185
Premium Wrangle +131 = Level 213

Engineer
This I've included because it COULD be used to overequip MA based weapons.
Slayer Transferrence +300 to MA skill = Level 488

Others
(MA) Martial Arts Mastery +60 = Level 98
(Soldier) Assault Rifle Mastery +60 = Level 98
(Enforcer) Brave Challenger to Titan +70 = Level 114
(Agent) Snipers Bliss +50/+15 = Level 81 (or Level 106 if both bonuses figured in)

I cannot see them slapping a level 201+ requirement on anything (at least until Shadowlands comes out), so lets assume that they'll have to use a level requirement of 195 instead.

Any guesses at what level an engineer will have to be before they can get the top slayer even if the slayer itself is not level limited? No Wrangles or Mochams unless they can find a level 195 MP and a level 195 Trader. Green bots for all.

No Demons at level 130-145, because you won't be able to selfcast even an Infuse until 146.

Soldiers/Agents put away your weapons, because you won't be able to buff into them until you're around level 100. However once you reach this level you'll still be able to buff someone else's low level character.

If they don't retrofit this, then it's unfair on those who have just got their "class balancing" nanos. If they do retrofit this then good luck on the levelling to 195 folks, because that's all there is.

p.s Superbuffs in Shadowlands, speculation:-
250pt Mochams works out to Level 400+ --- yummy at several weeks per level beyond 200.

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Myers
Some people say there is no reason to keep playing the game once you get to a certain high level. One of the reasons they are doing this(I imagine) is to get the game have more stuff at higher levels.

No this encourages you to get the a high level faster, so you can find there is nothing to do at high levels and quit quicker.

Clever tactics are at work here friends

FC wants you to quit! Dont quit, make them support a game they want to be rid of (I understand now its all reverse psychology)

Very clever FC, very clever........




















/sarcasm off

[_____________Mr Bean]

Alright Comsik you asked for it lets tear into this post

I should be mowing the law but that can wait.(Eh to hot anyway)

First I'll slice and dice the post up then I'll add and after thought ala Jerry Springer.. Minus the hair-pulling and chair throwing
Thats for after


Anyway lets jump right in

Anarchy Online is a skill-based game. Most of the players appreciate this fact, and this flexibility in the skill system is one of the drawing cards of AO. We hear and do understand that there is concern that this change might be perceived as arbitrary and altering the basic tenants of the system. However, in order to stop upcoming changes from trivializing the game, putting level requirements on nanos is something that simply must be done.

A nice overall quote
HOWEVER
This does not explain Leet Friend.. Please Comsik explain to me how the Leet Friend nanos in ANY shape or form could be made *trival because I could charm a level 10 Soleet?
Please I'm waiting why I have to be level 150 to charm a level 10 Soleet?
Next point up is the fact that you did not post this untill AFTER the patch was out the servers where down and you waited untill NOW to post this

Thirdly I'll stick this here this still does not explain why every single little thing is now Boss loot only. New armor sure I can understand, new weapons maybe
New super nanos I kinda agree
But as Inocybe so kindly pounds into all Adventurers heads whenever she gets the chance
*Why are Bread and butter nanos on boss mobs?
Why are our weapon buffs being placed on Boss Mobs only? You can buy the first one or two sure but after that its team mission team mission team mission
Every single @#%@% time!
I can go buy head-cracker in the shop for my Enfocer, Or Masterys in the shop for my old MP after that I can run missions for the higher QL nanos but for my Fixer and Adventurer?
Team missions team missions team missions
I can understand some things on the boss Comsik but why EVERY thing?

One of the benefits of these types of games (MMOs) is that it can be an expanding system. Patches and expansion packs allow new dynamics to be added to the game, enhancing the playing experience. This can change the scope of the game beyond that originally envisioned. With an expansion pack, we can go past the original barriers in the game. However, we need to take care that these new additions do not end up swamping and destroying the rest of the game. It is for this reason that level requirements are being added to new nanos.

Noting to contradict here a few good points expect the last sentance
I'll drag out Leet Friend example agian and go onto the next paragph

In the expansion pack we are going to be increasing the skill budget that we have by a very large amount. These extra skill buffs will come from new, better and higher quality level items, nanos, implants, modified skill caps, other unannounced methods, etc. This skill budget is important because we use that budget both for determining how much we can buff skills, but also the skill requirements that are used for nanos.

Skill Budget?
As in are we getting new skills to spend IP or are you doing somthing about the ton of free IP post 130 and the dearth of it before 50?
Sill how does this effect the low end game?
Are you gonna tossing out items that add +300 to all skills have no level requirments and drop off of bug-bags in the back-yards with a 1-3 chance? I mean seriously this still does not explain what your doing to so fundmently alter the low-end gameplay that we need level limits which BTW only Agents, Fixers and Advenuters have to deal with, Whats next level limits on NT items?
Oh yes your going to do that arn't you

Next Paragraph

With these new skill levels that players will be able to reach sometime after the expansion pack is released, it will mean that using the current scale of skill requirements for nanos will make the highest level nano useable at a trivial level. Adding level requirements on nanos means that new nanos that are made before the expansion pack is released will still become available at the ‘correct’ level, rather than all the level 200 nanos being useable at level 100. Additionally, this will allow us to increase the skill budget even further later on, if that is something that we want to do.

So is this a band-aid over a cut of arm? In three or four months your going to be adding a ton of things to make nanos easy as heck to cast
All well and good some might say.
So your putting in limits now?
Umm hmmmm. So soon your going to break the old system and try and build a new one
Why Nerf(As this can not be seen as *Balancing untill as such time as thier is somthing to balance aginst) now?


Next!

Adding level requirements now means that, even though we know what the skill budget will be expanded to with the expansion pack, we do not have to start implementing the full skill requirements on new nanos right now. Without level requirements, we would need to either make the effects of the nanos trivial - essentially turning level 200 nanos into level 100 nanos - or use the new skill budget to determine the skill requirements. This latter option would result in people being totally unable to use the higher level nanos until some time after the expansion pack. This is obviously not something that we wanted to do - there is no point adding lots of new nanos that would be literally impossible for any player to use for a long time.

Let me re quote the last part before I move on to the rest it struck me pretty close to home

This latter option would result in people being totally unable to use the higher level nanos until some time after the expansion pack. This is obviously not something that we wanted to do - there is no point adding lots of new nanos that would be literally impossible for any player to use for a long time.

What I can say to that is quite short and Sweet
That Level 195 Requriment sure and hell insures that there are alot of new nanos NO PLAYER WILL BE ABLE TO USE FOR A LONG TIME

Level requirments by definiton force players to wait a long time before using new things
Takes me five mins to run off and get Masterys
Takes me five hours to run off and get five levels.

Now back onto the top
Your making this cost more while adding items to making the cost not so bad. First I have to ask why? Your distorting the issue not changing it.
Before I had to be level 150 and have mochams up and running to cast pit lizard
Now if I want to use the better form I have to be 150 but with a varity of *special and no dought hard to get items.
Realy what is this besides a Nerf of MP usefulness and an increased reliance on items rather than nanos?


Next Pargraph

Since the release of Anarchy Online, the way the requirements on the nanos have been calculated has not been changed, even though more items have come into the world that buffs the nano skills. Additionally, the requirements were lenient, and did not assume that you always had 100% external buffs and 100% of the nano buffing items. 14.4 is the last patch using this old scale, and from 14.6 onwards the requirements will start to be higher than for existing nanos - although using the old skill budget, not the new budget, so will still be reachable using the current items and buffs. It is important to note, however, that it is not the intention that you will always be able to self-buff into the highest level nanos.

This statment is false
Contradiction is the name of the game and I'm sorry Comsik and Andrew Griffen but 14.4 does use much higher requriments than normal
If it where not true let me use the classic Brutal Thug VS Ballard of the Pistolero example
Brutal Thug Rasises 1hd and 2hd Blunt by 87 points at a cost of 366 Sens and Psymod

Ballad however neeeds 661 Psy and Sens and it raises Pistol by 87+ oh and fling by 17 less than general and +2 to damage
Oh and you have to be level 145 to use it
This is much higher than normal and as I said the Paragph contradicts itself does this mean come 14.6 we are going to see 990 reqs on somthing like Ballad?

Last part of this paragaph

It is important to note, however, that it is not the intention that you will always be able to self-buff into the highest level nanos.

Realy?
Why?

Next up this last part

Anarchy Online is still a skill-based game in that you will need to invest in the skills to be able to use the new nanos. However, it is also a changing game, and this change will enable us to continue to make player-enhancing additions to the game without negatively affecting other areas.

Yes true its still a skill based game
For 9 of 12 Classes



-----------------------------------------------------------------
Final thoughts
Sure this is a better explination that what was first given
But then agian it contradicts itself
It still does not quite explain

And thier are quite a few holes in the explination

Comsik your the mail boy here from what people shout
Read my words and consider them
My tone may be harsh

But My Words are True

~Mr Bean

[Oldbie]

I am confused and bewildered by Andrew's post. Someone help me figure this out, please.

- In an expansion pack which will not be out for 6+ months, and that I as a player and consumer may not purchase anyway, there will be a dramatically increased skill budget, and this will potentially unbalance current nanos because the nanoskill requirements (calculated pre-expansion-patch) will be trivial.

This I understand. I can see how this would be nightmare balancing issue. But the solution they've come up with doesn't seem to be an admirable one...

- To counteract current nanos being trivially easy to use once this expansion pack hits, the latest round of profession-balancing nanos, which only serve to bring maligned professions up to par with their peers, are being given level requirements, while professions with the good fortune to have been balanced previously do not have these restrictions on their nanos.

- To counteract current nanos being trivially easy to use with the additional skill budget, buffs, and items in the expansion pack, level requirements on nanos have been introduced. These level requirements, most notably on the high-end nanos, are far too high given even the current skill budget and nano buffs. For example, consider this examination of the new Fixer nanos.

That's my confusion over what was said about the level requirements. I also am confused by what wasn't mentioned

- All new nanos will have level requirements, in preperations for the enormous nanoskill levels Shadowlands will introduce. There is no mention of requirements being retroactively added to current nanos. I find it difficult to believe that it's important to put level requirements on the Fixer SMG buffs but not Nano Shutdown, Total Mirror Shield Mk X, or Alpha and Omega. If level requirements will be added retroactively, a bit of up-front honesty would be a nice change of pace.

I've read the post several times, and this is what I come up with.

edit: foolish keyboard! too many spelling errors!

[BoomDoom]

Guys:

If the content you intended to be high level is being used earlier then you wanted, why not just add higher level nanos and items? Not too many people would be upset if you decided to solve this new problem you're creating by giving them more things to use.

[Autocratt]

Still a very bad bad idea. Explanation does not counter this.

[Waffen]

The explanation also does not answer how they figured out their math.

Both the fixer and adventurer communities have shown how it is easily possible to cast level-locked nanos well before that level, only being equipped with mediocre implants (for the character's level) and using the general buffs.

[Bionitrous]

What is the use of allowing an increased NanoSkill in the expansion if all the nanos are level-limited anyway. If you can't take advantage of the increased skill pool until you reach a particular level then the increased skill pool is a waste.

This explanation is not satisfactory mostly in that it is incomplete.

A firm and understandable example of why the skill-system still has any value is in order.

If I can now buff MatterCreation to 3000 in Shadowlands using the expanded skill pools and new items, who really cares if you can't use a Nuke that requires 1500 MatterCreation until some set level? All that matters is your level and not your skill.

Give us an example of how you are going to ensure that skill and character design will always be more important than level.

Level in a skill-based game should only determine how many IP's you get. The effectiveness of your character and the playstyles afforded to that character should only ever be determined by how you spend those IP's.

I have Servants of Eight Armor. Almost a complete set. I can wear it now with nothing more than Strength Boost and Agility Boost. The requirements on this item preclude me from wearing it for an additional 23 'levels'. How does this provide evidence that the Skill system has any impact on my character? Those pieces of equipment festering in my bank do not enhance my enjoyment of the game or encourage me to 'level' in any way. If I did not meet the Agility or Strength requirements, I would be busting my ass to be able to have my character skillful enough to enjoy the rewards of my conquest.

I do not accept this explanation in that it is wholly inadequate in providing an understanding of how a character builds himself can make a difference.

I can live with level restrictions on nanos as 'sanity checks'. I still think it's a cop-out in terms of game design professionalism and capability. However, this is only acceptable if there is an appreciable difference between what one who works hard at the game and specializes in an area can do and one who pays little heed to his character build can do. The current 14.4 fiasco does little to make me believe this is more than an attempt to homogenize the player base by pulling character improvement far, far away from his skill complement and placing it firmly in his mysterious 'level'.

The simple fact that a character with three times the skill of another cannot do something related to that skill at level 174 that a character at 175 who paid little heed to the same skills is outright assinine and is why I am abandoning this game as soon as I can.

Explain to me why I'm wrong. Explain to me in detail what the Shadowlands has to do with this. Explain and give an example.

Explain to me why it really matters what my skill is in comparison to another player if neither of us can perform a task using that skill until we have a predetermined number of evolutions in your damned mousewheel.

Simply saying 'it's because of the Shadowlands' is no explanation at all.

[______________Magnuz]

Hmm, it seems with the current lay-offs FC are going the easy route in game balance & design. Level limits are not the answer to your future problems, please dont make another Diablo :-(. And what about these team-missions? It's not like they are all that I want to do in this game....



Magnuz

[______________Magnuz]

Cosmik. The explanation you gave us were a bit... cheap.. The entire point of having a SKILL based game, with different nanolines, are that the PLAYER has the option to choose what line he wants to develop. If i want to max all nanoabilities for 1 line only, and get better than the average (and suck at all the remaining lines), then that should be MY choice.


Magnuz