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Thread: Why we are adding level requirements on all future nano formula

  1. #1

    Why we are adding level requirements on all future nano formula

    From Andrew Griffin, nano designer:-

    Anarchy Online is a skill-based game. Most of the players appreciate this fact, and this flexibility in the skill system is one of the drawing cards of AO. We hear and do understand that there is concern that this change might be perceived as arbitrary and altering the basic tenants of the system. However, in order to stop upcoming changes from trivializing the game, putting level requirements on nanos is something that simply must be done. Let me explain why.

    One of the benefits of these types of games (MMOs) is that it can be an expanding system. Patches and expansion packs allow new dynamics to be added to the game, enhancing the playing experience. This can change the scope of the game beyond that originally envisioned. With an expansion pack, we can go past the original barriers in the game. However, we need to take care that these new additions do not end up swamping and destroying the rest of the game. It is for this reason that level requirements are being added to new nanos.

    In the expansion pack we are going to be increasing the skill budget that we have by a very large amount. These extra skill buffs will come from new, better and higher quality level items, nanos, implants, modified skill caps, other unannounced methods, etc. This skill budget is important because we use that budget both for determining how much we can buff skills, but also the skill requirements that are used for nanos.

    With these new skill levels that players will be able to reach sometime after the expansion pack is released, it will mean that using the current scale of skill requirements for nanos will make the highest level nano useable at a trivial level. Adding level requirements on nanos means that new nanos that are made before the expansion pack is released will still become available at the ‘correct’ level, rather than all the level 200 nanos being useable at level 100. Additionally, this will allow us to increase the skill budget even further later on, if that is something that we want to do.

    Adding level requirements now means that, even though we know what the skill budget will be expanded to with the expansion pack, we do not have to start implementing the full skill requirements on new nanos right now. Without level requirements, we would need to either make the effects of the nanos trivial - essentially turning level 200 nanos into level 100 nanos - or use the new skill budget to determine the skill requirements. This latter option would result in people being totally unable to use the higher level nanos until some time after the expansion pack. This is obviously not something that we wanted to do - there is no point adding lots of new nanos that would be literally impossible for any player to use for a long time.


    Since the release of Anarchy Online, the way the requirements on the nanos have been calculated has not been changed, even though more items have come into the world that buffs the nano skills. Additionally, the requirements were lenient, and did not assume that you always had 100% external buffs and 100% of the nano buffing items. 14.4 is the last patch using this old scale, and from 14.6 onwards the requirements will start to be higher than for existing nanos - although using the old skill budget, not the new budget, so will still be reachable using the current items and buffs. It is important to note, however, that it is not the intention that you will always be able to self-buff into the highest level nanos.

    Anarchy Online is still a skill-based game in that you will need to invest in the skills to be able to use the new nanos. However, it is also a changing game, and this change will enable us to continue to make player-enhancing additions to the game without negatively affecting other areas.
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  2. #2

    Re: Why we are adding level requirements on all future nano formula

    Originally posted by Cosmik
    From Andrew Griffin, nano designer:-

    clip

    In the expansion pack we are going to be increasing the skill budget that we have by a very large amount. These extra skill buffs will come from new, better and higher quality level items, nanos, implants, modified skill caps, other unannounced methods, etc. This skill budget is important because we use that budget both for determining how much we can buff skills, but also the skill requirements that are used for nanos.

    clip

    Err why not limit the new 'buffing' stuff then?

    Or is that too sensible?
    Dont you think I look like Geordie from Star Trek?
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  3. #3

    Arrow

    So, what he is saying is that these nanos would have higher skill requirements than they do (and be higher QL) if they didn't have the level requirement?

    Because of the expansion...

    OK, that makes sense, you've set the QL to match the skill reqs rather than setting it to its 'real' QL which would have shown us that the skill reqs were lower than would have been expected... If only you'd left the QLs alone then, maybe this would not have blown up in you face, we'd have seen that the level req was a check and balance on the lower skill reqs...

    Let's see what everyone else makes of it.

  4. #4
    it still doesnt address many of the points made by the proffessions... the removal of breed advantage, the fact that many of these nanos should have been in from the beggining and so should not be subject to change just because you only just got around to putting them in. there has been no compromise or discussion, no talk of not adding requirements to nanos that are fixes for proffessions to bring them in line with other proffessions.

    it is the lack of customer care and relations that has bothered me so much. There was initially said to be an effort to have no surprises in patches, but we did not get told that there would be level requirements on all future nanos until yesterday.
    a day before the patch was announced and this was only said because of the out cry from the community.

    I want to be part of a community that can make a difference and gets talked to without having to go crazy first.
    hopefully one day Funcom will realise how much they need their players and begin to listen.

    I told myself I wasnt going to post on this topic again... I guess I lied. the game means alot to me, I hate having to leave

  5. #5

    Arrow Re: Re: Why we are adding level requirements on all future nano formula

    Originally posted by Warlock

    Err why not limit the new 'buffing' stuff then?

    Or is that too sensible?
    Actually that would be senseless... These things aren't even in the game yet. I see where this is going now, the problem is that the expansion is still abit off, and we'll have several patches betwen now and then, so we're stuck in a transitional phase...

    The real issue here is that FC could have handled this so much better, if they had been upfront about these apparent mechanic changes I suspect there would have been less outcry. I hope lessons are learnt.

    We should have *at least* monthly developer/designer updates on the web pages, talk to us FC, gives us a clue where your going! I don't expect to be told everything, but...

  6. #6
    Well, its not the stupidest explanation i ever heard, but it still leaves room for questions. Such as, If this new skill system allows us to use nanos prior to the "correct" level why implement them at all? Will the level reqs go away when Shadowlands come out? How accesible are these new items going to be? Will the 14.6 patch (the first to use the new skill sytem reqs) be out before Shadowlands? Are you going to change the skill reqs on existing nanos? And most importantly, why does this sound like a completely different explanation then the one you handed Cosmik to give us before?
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  7. #7
    No what hes saying is

    Those of you who buy Shadowlands will be able to get uber buffing stuff that (if you're still a lowbie) will allow you to OE on nanos (OE rears head again - forethought FC? should have addressed this in 14.2?). But you'll need it for the new uber nanos in Shadowlands (which we're going to force you to buff-beg for anyway even though you can play solo - but it'll all be team mission boss loot anyway.)

    So we place restriction on new stuff NOW so that the game becomes 'normal' if you buy shadowlands when it comes out, oh and if you dont you get shadowlands you're hit with the level restriction anyway that doesnt actually apply to you since you cant get the uber buffs - sorry old chum.

    This is the kind of thing Microsoft does to get your to buy their latest and greatest too

    If Shadowlands if the problem, why not just apply the restrictions to the local client database when you install Shadowlands? Yeah people might end up with stuff they cant use right now but this is no different to the OE patch situation. You're going to have to support 2 versions of the database anyway so whats the problem?

    Or see my post above and apply the level restrictions to the 'new uber buffing stuff'

    -edit-
    Typos
    Last edited by Warlock; Jun 27th, 2002 at 15:28:20.
    Dont you think I look like Geordie from Star Trek?
    <-----------------------------------------------------------
    Actually I look more of a cross between him and Picard don't I?

  8. #8

    Angry The word is LIE

    The real reason is:

    Adjusting skill levels and making balanced nanos is HARD because we want to have +1000 buffs and uber nanos since making those is FUN! However, to actually have a player USE them is BAD. So to fix this we're making AO a level based game (which by the way eliminates the advantages of different colored skills or stats) and force every character of every profession to be exactly the same.

    You see it is much easier to just balance based on level. Especially since all we have here is a combat game. It would be really helpful if you would all drop this RP bs and other profs and just become soldiers and shoot everything. But NOOOOO you *players* just have to go and want things different.

    Don't worry, we'll have a nice little homogenous game with all differences eliminated. All that will separate one player from another is the skin on the mob their fighting.

    Just think won't it be better? Who needs to fuss around with skills. You're just going to go level as fast as you can anyway! So rather than making you worry about skills and IP and implants, we'll just make you have to reach a certain level.

    We're doing it ... for you... our beloved customers.

    (And the hopes that it will take you another few months to hit the highest level in the game at which point you can leave.)

    Anything else said by FC is a lie.



    Balance... hah... this coming from the same team that brought us entire professions dedicated to nothing but throwing game balance out the window.

    Yet another reason why game developers should never be allowed to actually make the game. Program and make the pretty pictures sure, but not one of them has a clue about game design or theory.
    "The engineer profession is geared toward the creation of items and weapons. No profession beats engineers at creating robots to do the dirty work for them. An engineer may not be the strongest of all professions but makes a powerful opponent or ally by using gadgets and robot helpers."

    Transcript of CHAR_CRE_29 sound in the AO character creation sequence.

    "This post brought to you by TECHNOLOGY! Indistinguishable from magic since 1875."

  9. #9
    Alright, I still think that introducing level reqs is stupid and an extremely bad idea, but let's assume for a minute that I agree with that.
    This explanation still doesnt explain why the level reqs are so HIGH. These nanos have reqs which would be reachable WITHIN THE CURRENT SYSTEM, not this supposedly godbuffed shadowlands pack, well before you reach the level which the nano requires.
    The level reqs are too HIGH, your explaination does nothing to adress this.

  10. #10

    Arrow

    Originally posted by Intra
    it still doesnt address many of the points made by the proffessions... the removal of breed advantage, the fact that many of these nanos should have been in from the beggining and so should not be subject to change just because you only just got around to putting them in. there has been no compromise or discussion, no talk of not adding requirements to nanos that are fixes for proffessions to bring them in line with other proffessions.
    No, but again, we the players don't have the whole picture. I hope we can get more information on this. Cosmik, you listening?

  11. #11
    I'm gone. See ya. Crispy, I'll give you my stuff.

  12. #12
    Change, that. Sorry Crispy, you're not getting my stuff unless you are the highest bidder on my upcoming eBay auctions.

  13. #13

    Arrow

    Originally posted by Gestava
    Alright, I still think that introducing level reqs is stupid and an extremely bad idea, but let's assume for a minute that I agree with that.
    This explanation still doesnt explain why the level reqs are so HIGH. These nanos have reqs which would be reachable WITHIN THE CURRENT SYSTEM, not this supposedly godbuffed shadowlands pack, well before you reach the level which the nano requires.
    The level reqs are too HIGH, your explaination does nothing to adress this.
    No, I think what is being said is it is not the level reqs that are too high, but the skill reqs that are so low... If for example, the 'Major Supressor' nano had been a QL90 nano with its lvl 75 requirement and the PM/SI 350 requirements, you'd have gone, 'what low nano skills, that explains the level req...'

    I could be reading this all wrong, but that *seems* to be the gist of it...

  14. #14

    Angry Just thing

    If the development team of AO had a decent track record of fixing problems, introducing new content without throwing the entire game out the window, and addressing imbalances with rational reasonable thought-out and properly implemented solutions... then all this screaming wouldn't be going on now.

    To those that say 'let's give them the benefit of the doubt' I say... Why? Why have they earned it? What have they done that shows they actually 1) listen to the player base or 2) intend to make a decent game?

    Ask yourself that.
    "The engineer profession is geared toward the creation of items and weapons. No profession beats engineers at creating robots to do the dirty work for them. An engineer may not be the strongest of all professions but makes a powerful opponent or ally by using gadgets and robot helpers."

    Transcript of CHAR_CRE_29 sound in the AO character creation sequence.

    "This post brought to you by TECHNOLOGY! Indistinguishable from magic since 1875."

  15. #15
    My questions:
    1. If the level limits are being placed on the items now to prevent them being OE'd when the Shadowlands Expansion, does this mean when the Shadowlands Expansion hits the stores will the requirements on these nanos be adjusted accordingly and their level limits be removed?
    2. How much of the skill enhancing features are going to be availible to everyone, regardless of whether or not they bought the Shadowland's expansion?


    I can sorta understand the reasoning of not wanting to hold back implementing new stuff until after the expansion pack release and having to account for their usage post-Shadowlands. But if you're limiting item usage now in preparation for the game situation after the expansion pack, we do need to know what happens to limits placed now? And how pervasive will access to the 'increased skill budget' be for all characters?
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

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  16. #16

    WOAH ...stop da show...

    It is for this reason that level requirements are being added to new nanos.
    Ummm....is this post saying that only NEW, UNRELEASED Nanos are gonna have the level cap?

    An answer here would be much liked

  17. #17
    Originally posted by PipBoy
    Change, that. Sorry Crispy, you're not getting my stuff unless you are the highest bidder on my upcoming eBay auctions.
    thats assuming anyone still wants to buy AO stuff on Ebay
    better do it fast!

  18. #18

    Thumbs up

    Good questions Kuroshio. They have answered one question and left us with 20 new ones...

  19. #19
    I am also quite curious as to where both of Chown's posts went. Unfortunately I only saw the second one, which was deleted too.

    Confidential to Chown: I have screenshots of the before and after of the second post if you're interested.
    Originally posted by Whaambulance
    Hi.

    This is singlehandedly the stupidest post I have EVER read on these forums. Congradulations.
    'Balancing' Nanos Will Remain Imbalanced Vs. Old Nanos - Because We Said So!

    O Gaute, Gaute! Wherefore art thou Gaute?
    Deny thy nerfs and refuse thy lame design decisions;
    Or, if thou wilt not, be but on the forums,
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  20. #20
    Originally posted by Darkbane
    Good questions Kuroshio. They have answered one question and left us with 20 new ones...
    I know. It happens alot that way. I'll be bringing up the follow-up questions with Andrew et al and bringing you answers.
    Earn free game time and play with your friends[/b]

    Anarchy Online Community Representative

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