Level requirements on new nano programs

[Ashuras]

I suspect, that in Shadowlands, u can get uber items that buffs your nano skills by a VERY SIGNIFICANT level.

So much so that it can result in players being able to self cast certain nanos "too early".

But wouldn't it make these items "useless" if we have "level reqs" ?

No.. these items are still useful, in that players can save the IPs from these item-buffed nanoskills and invest the IPs elsewhere.

Please guys... if u read the message and care to think "between the lines". U would know how all these nanos are designed.

While AO is supposed to be a skill based game (it still is), these nanos are designed based on LEVELs. Yes. They think of the level, then assign the skill reqs.

We players had outsmarted them by combining all possible buffs, etc.

They realised they cannot beat our combined intelligence, and thus needed these reqs.

Put yourself in a game designer's perspective. There are reasons for implementing this.

Oh... BTW, I do agree with the argument of such stuff benefiting Atrox and giving nanos a disadvantage.

But... have u ever wondered... how they pick the skill req after deciding the level ? (the exact formula wasn't given to us) Wat makes u think that an Atrox can cast that nano upon reaching the necessary level req ?

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Cosmik
Skills are then chosen, based on that level, and not assuming you have maxed implants, maximum items and maximum external buffs. A percentage of this was chosen, and the skill requirements are the result

Something is very wrong here....

If the level restriction wasnt bad enough! On the one hand you are going to prevent players who have invested in a certain skill set using these nanos at the earliest opportunity but on the other side of the coin it will be worse if this forces buff begging (actually encouraging OE) if a player is a high enough level but still doesnt have the right requirements.

Whats the difference between this and now you may ask?

Well once you slap a level on a nano people will EXPECT to be able to use that nano at that level. If they cant (since you have taken maxed implants and outside buffs into the equsion) you will get forced buff begging and back to the old OE situation we go.

If you are going to do this, remove the skill restrictions (which is also a bad idea but will probably be easier to swallow)

THIS IS A BAD THING

[Cratylus]

I'm so in shock by this change I don't even know what to say, except I'm convinced that Funcom spikes their water coolers w/ PCP.

I've played since July 1 '01, and have endured many changes in the subsequent year, but nothing close to the magnitude of this one. Placing level requirements on nanos totally DESTROYS the skill-based nature of this game, regardless of what company-line claptrap Cosmik puts out there.

Just to re-iterate a few points:

this completely elminates the distinctness of the breeds

gets rid of any sort of customization for characters ; just one small example, I have a good friend who plays his Advent primarily as a healer, and has focused his skills/implants/items on increasing the nanoskills that allow him to use better heals than he normally would at his level. He doesn't do the most damage in the world, but he heals better than lots of doctors I've grouped with ; putting level reqs on nanos completely takes away a player's choice to focus on one area like this.

introduces HUGE inequities between the classes that use the new nanos and the old--which I'm sure will be corrected in typical ham-fisted Funcom fashion by assigning level reqs to ALL nanos.



Funcom, you guys can't "out-EQ" EQ!! When are you going to get that through your heads??? Many people who play AO, myself included, left EQ for one reason or another to come here ; I have nothing against EQ, just wasn't my sort of game. But it seems like someone there in Norway keeps looking at EQ's gazillion-plus subscribers and saying "wow, we gotta be more like that," so now we get massive camping, level reqs, etc. What's next, abolish the reclaim terminals and institute corpse-recovery runs?

Bah. Why do I even bother to type this? Probably the one thing in this game that has stayed 100% the same since launch is the deafening silcence displayed by Funcom when it comes to communicating with its playerbase.

[mulps1]

if i was sober at this point i think i may be upset.....

..raises his pint to FC....


man i'm gonna regret that in the mornin

[______________Shatai]

boffski, that's a great idea!

Let's just forget about all this level-req nonsense, and go get tanked!

*plans for an even harder Friday night drinking session now*

Only problem is, I won't be able to post when I'm drunk........ bah, people will have to do so for me

[________________Schu]

Add another to the anti's. Level requirements are wrong unless they extend the rule to every nano currently ingame. If they do that they will have no playerbase left and we can expect the servers to grind to a halt pretty sharpish.

I'm also really concerned about the way this patch is being handled. 14.4 ends full IPR-ing. If this patch is going to go live today why is a warning not on the launcher screen? Why have your players not been informed that the neatest thing to be given to us in months is possibly coming to an end today?


Bukka said it in a nutshell:

Bah. Why do I even bother to type this? Probably the one thing in this game that has stayed 100% the same since launch is the deafening silence displayed by Funcom when it comes to communicating with its playerbase.

[Fingathing]

AO has changed alot since launch. With the implementation of NCU buffs, think of the game with no lvl reqs.. you could buff a lvl 1 with +250 ncu and give him mochams and wrangles and whatnot, and where would the challenge be for the n00b? The low lvl game is kinda broken these days.. I agree that lvl reqs as lvl 175 and 195 are outrageous, but I can see their point of view. Alot of the things that stack, or improve areas allready covered by other nanos, I can see lvl reqs.. I think FC must be careful tho. They explain it as a fix to OE of nanoprograms, but that has never been an issue.
All the nanos up until now are lvl req free. Consider these our basic set of nanos. The ones who follow will be to fix and balance. With every nano they add they might bring unbalance to the game with nanos being used too soon. If said class suffers at lvl x, giving it a nano to balance it there might do it, but overpower the class at lvl x-y. Give them a chance and see how it works before we start flaming. Is principles more important than a well balanced and fun game?

[___________Evilspork]

FFS, NOBODY THINKS NCU BUFFS SHOULD BE UNRESTRICTED!!!

And as 'fixing' and 'balancing' nanos, we should get them without arbitrary gotchas. Where are the attatched strings for professions that had equivelants to these nanos from day one when we didn't?

[Nepenthea]

Greetings.

I'd like to understand, from Funcom, what the base "cause" is to this "effect" of caster level-restricted nanos.


Cosmik stated:

"14.2 gave us some really good fixes in regards to over-equipping, and these new nano programs will build on that, giving us greater control so we can continue to improve balance and even the playing field."

and

"This addition will build upon the existing game mechanics and greatly aid in the balance and improvement of gameplay."


What exactly is off-balance and "uneven" in the game, that requires CASTER level restrictions on a nano to be uploaded/cast? Understanding the base "cause" which has resulted in the"effect" (level restriction on casters uploading/casting a nano) would help tremendously in understanding Funcom's logic and reasoning.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark here and guess at what might be Funcom's reasoning:

Funcom wants to prevent (lower-level) over-equipping/"twinking".

If this IS the case, wouldn't a restriction--not on the CASTER of the nano--but on the RECIPIENT of that nano make far more sense?

In this scenario, it wouldn't prevent someone from being able to upload/cast a nano, if they meet the skill requirements, but, it does ensure that someone lower than the *appropriate level range* of that particular nano can't receive that buff. Logically, the nanos with recipient-level-restrictions would pertain specifically to skill/stat/ability buffs--the nanos which are the "cause" of the OE/twinking "effect". In this scenario, it would still allow for flexibility in what breed one chooses to play, and how one chooses to allocate their IP. The skill system currently in place would not be compromised. This scenario would be much less contradictory and much less defeating to the current skill system already in existance.


To reiterate:

- Level restriction is RECIPIENT only, NOT caster.
- A character of level lower than the appropriate level range of that nano can not receive that buff.
- The nanos with recipient-level-restrictions would pertain specifically to skill/stat/ability buffs.


I truly hope more communication and discussion will be forthcoming from Funcom regarding this issue.

Be well.

[________Drphixxxette]

I've been fairly silent on this issue, but now well i'm tired of being quiet, not going to make a long post either, my guild has been thinking about moving to SWG when it comes out, i've been trying to keep them here, with this news, i've signed up for thier beta and as soon as it hits i'm gone, and i'm taking as many of my guild mates as possible. This is no longer a skill based game, it just turned into DAoC with guns, screw it, my subscription is good until july but i probably won't be staying around until then...yeah and my guild isn't big, and so the threat probably seems miniscule, but loosing a large ammount of your player base due to this kind of idiocy, right before launching an expansion isn't going to help you know, expansions are mainly bought by existing players, and hey we don't want the changes you are bringing now so why are we going to pay for a new load of crap....i was really really psyched when i first read about the changes to my class and to advs, but you know i'd rather you just left your grubby hands of my broken class now...leave us broken if this is how you are going to fix us....that way you can't say well we did balance....blah blah blah, this isn't balancing this is stadard "fixer love" and it sucks that advs got some to, this really breaks my heart i like this game and i planned on sticking it out and buying your damn expansion but screw it SWG hits or citizen zero and i'm out...

phixxxer

[________________Caol]

[10:44] <Cz> Caol, the level restrictins are here to stay. That is a dead discussion, like it or not. I'm gonna bring up whether we can please tweak them a bit, but can't promise anything.

There you have it. It stays as it is. This protest will get you just as far as when you protested against the OE patch.

Have fun. Ô_o

[Warlock]

Originally posted by Caol
[10:44] <Cz> Caol, the level restrictins are here to stay. That is a dead discussion, like it or not. I'm gonna bring up whether we can please tweak them a bit, but can't promise anything.

He may as well have said

"We hate our customers and want them to suffer. We ignore the community because we just dont care what they think. We'd like you all the quit the game so we can go out of business quicker"

Why dont they just shut the servers down now and be done with it, it would put everyone out of their misery.

[Cosmik]

A more detailed explanation of this change should be ready soon, which will go further into the how and why. I will post it on this board once it's in my hands.

[Routeen]

Decided to sample and discuss another gem from this post:

Originally posted by Cosmik
To make things clear, the way nano programs are created have not been altered at all. When these new nano programs were created, a level was picked to determine when the nano program should be used. Skills are then chosen, based on that level, and not assuming you have maxed implants, maximum items and maximum external buffs. A percentage of this was chosen, and the skill requirements are the result. An arbitrary level was not picked - the level requirement is no higher than the intended level on new nano programs, which has always been included from the start.

Well, what does this boil down to, exactly?

1) There is and has always been an intended lvl of use for nanos.
On the face of it, this makes sense -- it seems essential for game balance that there is some restriction on when certain things become available. I assume that the QL of the nano has some relationship to "intended lvl."

However:
a) If the skill system is going to be meaningful, then "intended lvl" has to be an approximation -- a lvl range, not a fixed pt. This is what permits the customization (via implants, breed, gear, and stat raising) that makes a skill system interesting. People at different lvls need to be able to do different things, depending on what choices they have make.

You could have a "skill" system, I suppose, where whenever you went up a lvl, all your skills were automatically raised by 5, but this is a joke, and a skill system in name only.

b) Again, as far as I can tell, Cosmik once more seems to be making a pt for the player's side with this quote. The fact that the skill requirement is set pre-implant, buffs, etc., means that anyone who is actually customizing (via implants etc.) is no longer getting ANY BENEFIT from this, since they wont be able to use a nano that they have the skill reqs for. The pt Cosmik makes here is PRECISELY the problem with lvl reqs in the first place.

c) the "intended level" may have been included on the designer's table, but it certainly has not been included up until now as an actual requirement. Saying it has "always been there" completely obscures the topic of debate, i.e. whether or not there should be an EXPLICIT lvl req.

Adding lvl requirements is just a heavy handed way of taking control of what the players can achieve in the skill system, by making your skill and your choices functionally irrelevent for these nanos.

This pt, of course, is not the only problem, as I have already noted above. The fact that this change singles out only some of the professions, and those identified by FC as in need of help, is equally pernicious.

[Ashuras]

Originally posted by Nepentheia
To reiterate:

- Level restriction is RECIPIENT only, NOT caster.
- A character of level lower than the appropriate level range of that nano can not receive that buff.
- The nanos with recipient-level-restrictions would pertain specifically to skill/stat/ability buffs.


I truly hope more communication and discussion will be forthcoming from Funcom regarding this issue.

Be well.

Initially... that's what I tot.

Hmm.. then a fellow adv pointed out... . a lot of ADV NFs are.. SELF ONLY.

[____________Angeleye]

Level requirements on new nano programs are being introduced as an extension of the over-equipping changes that were made in 14.2.

Why only level requirements on new nano programs?
And why have you implented this crap without consulting the players first? AO is based on nano programs, this is the fundamental on which the entire game relies on. The only people who really enjoying this $hit is pvp crybabies, whilst the majority of AO's players doesn't give a crap if you are OE or not...

14.2 gave us some really good fixes in regards to over-equipping, and these new nano programs will build on that, giving us greater control so we can continue to improve balance and even the playing field.

"Improve" balance my ass, lets just skip the skill based crap from now on and move on to level based instead. Being an adventurer - our fixes are mainly class balancing issues (given some minor, not so useful crap nanos as well).

To make things clear, the way nano programs are created have not been altered at all. When these new nano programs were created, a level was picked to determine when the nano program should be used. Skills are then chosen, based on that level, and not assuming you have maxed implants, maximum items and maximum external buffs. A percentage of this was chosen, and the skill requirements are the result. An arbitrary level was not picked - the level requirement is no higher than the intended level on new nano programs, which has always been included from the start. In fact, the level requirement is up to 25 levels lower than the intended use level.

The first rambling I don't understand at all - but thats ok I really don't care...
However when they starts lying about "the level requirement is no higher than the intended level on new nano programs" and "In fact, the level requirement is up to 25 levels lower than the intended use level." it really pisses me off
Lets take a few nanos for example:
"Ballad of the Plains Wanderer" ql169 (pistol and flingshot buff) BUT you have to be level 195 to use it
"Frenzy of Shells" ql169 (smg and burst buff) BUT you have to be level 195 to use it
"Gnat's Wing" ql169 (crit and as buff) BUT you have to be level 180 to use it

Funny thing is, here we have 3 nano programs all of the same ql but Adventurers and Fixers have much higher level req than the Agent. Not saying that Agents should have it "nerfed", but I find it very odd that their ql169 requires much lower level (15 levels is a lot at 195 vs. 180) than ours. There are several nano programs that requires higher level than the ql of the nano. And this affects the profession fixes for the adventurer too - but they didn't put level requirements on profession fixes on the Agents (well most of them anyway). Is this fair or even logical!?

This change to nano programs is also being made in preparation for the Shadowlands expansion pack, and new nano programs from 14.4 onwards will also have level requirements.

Well at first I did looked forward to Shadowlands, but as it is now I honestly can say that I have a hard time motivating myself to support any further products from Funcom.

Anarchy Online is a skill based MMOPRG and will remain a skill based MMORPG by focusing on the skills of each player and their profession. This addition will build upon the existing game mechanics and greatly aid in the balance and improvement of gameplay.

AO is slowing moving away from being a skill based game to a level based game. Once again, it make no sense that if I meet the skill of a certain nano program that I also have to be a certain level to use it; AO is based around skills and buffs - stay on that path!!

[Warlock]

I'm experiencing a tranquil moment - so knowing that this will get ignored I'll ask the key question

Originally posted by Cosmik
14.2 gave us some really good fixes in regards to over-equipping, and these new nano programs will build on that, giving us greater control so we can continue to improve balance and even the playing field.

What actually is the current problem (post 14.2) that needs greater control, improved balance and a more level playing field?

You created a system where a characters ability to use items is based on their skill. You build a system to increase said skills over time, you included the ability to temporarily increase ones abilities.

You are not removing the ability to temporarily increase ones abilities, in fact you are factoring this into the equasion so that does beg the question

Why do you feel the skill limits are not sufficient to control the use of the item?

Would it not have made more sense to simply increase the skills required to use the item? or reduce the use/effectivness of the temporary increases in skill (I know that sounds like I'm calling for a nerf to wrangles etc)

Why is this level restricting so damn important to you guys. If you're not going to debate this with us at least tell us WHY it is happening. A vague 'balance and control' statement just doesnt cut it.

...ok maybe not quite so tranquil at the end

[DarkeKnyte]

Originally posted by Cosmik
A more detailed explanation of this change should be ready soon, which will go further into the how and why. I will post it on this board once it's in my hands.

IMHO people don't want more smoke blown up their butt because when you fart it makes a cloud.

I know I don't want another explanation.
What will it accomplish? Nothing except have everyone state over again how FC has refused to listen to playerbase and could care less about their paying customers.

You fix the fixer and the advent but you also have some real lame strings attached these fixes.
As one person said it, "If you won't put lvl restrictions on ALL the nanos then there will be no balance."

I am not trying to flame here but enough is enough.
Does FC really want to lose players this badly?
If they don't then they need to listen and communicate with us (you know the people who help make their paycheck).

[Xephydes]

The level reqs would be WAY too high, as stated in xx's of these posts here. Implants, item buffs, and MP buffs are in game to help you cast nanos! I see the forthcoming death of my MP.. Can't see how this is going to be balancing...

Xeph

[Tetra]

Originally posted by Cosmik
A more detailed explanation of this change should be ready soon, which will go further into the how and why. I will post it on this board once it's in my hands.

I almost have a morbid curiosity to see what kind of spin you guys try to put on it this time...


anyways for anyone interested there was a protest tonight on RK1... I took a bunch of screenshots that can be found here... if the site is unavailable it's cause i took it down.