Level requirements on new nano programs

[dan09]

Funcom its about balance yes and also tweaking. I have never had the best nanos, probably never will. I live in australia and generally there arent that many on when i game, so solo is the way i go when no one else is around.

I am always, always behind in nanos, armor, mission tokens, XP etc. I only praise MP's that have all the stuff, usually from alts, guilds or buddies. This to me is not unbalanced. Its not unfair and i, in no way feel inferior, i have leared to play this game with caution and responsibility. And hey, now at level 100 things are starting to come to me, cash is easier to get, i am in a guild now and teaming is getting to be a common thing. I even bought a Yalm!!!

I did it my way. I dont get penalised by other people being able to do things faster, stronger better. Its my game, its my way. The only things that get annoying is when attempts are made to restrict items so that uber players (obviously people who played the game right through) cannot get into them. Its not like any one at all is affected by this.

Take seraphfire, he cast infuses at level 82 or something crazy like that. he even documented how he did it, whilst it would be cool to do, the amount of effort required far out ways the benefits in my opinion. You need an enormous amount of patients, cash and friends to help you do this. He can only cast a pet 1 or 2 levels ahead of mine, not exactly power levelling considering how ling it took him to do.

So then what is the point?
He could do it.
He could fine tune to the nth degree. Once the game is played people need these tweak things to keep interested. The fact that this game supports such crazy stuff is a credit to its mechanics and lastability. You are only a student when you first play and a master after several iterations.

Dont make this such an even playing ground that there is a photo copy machine upon starting a new charater and blue print at each level. This game has the most awesome engine to show that relentless tweakers can produce some crazy things that im sure not even you guys would have imagined possible.

If you want to know what is unbalanced think about this. What i earn i keep, what i learn i use. XP in teams comes fast, whilst soloing is much slower. I have a bad day i lose a level or two and i am really starting to fall behind the team players who happen to live in a better time zone. To make matters worse i have to wait once i die. It may not seem like much but stick in about 7 deaths in a row and my gaming time is over, i have lost XP and patients.

More than half of this XP is due to pets nicking off in battle, not doing what their told or simply doing their own thing.
So how then am i supposed to agree or support in anyway the introduction of level limits. My main loss in this game is through bugs and bad code not tweakers with all the toys. They dont affect MY game

[_____________Paldorr]

Let's get one thing straight - these level restrictions are for NEW nanos. SO WHAT !! Just don't use the new nanos and THE GAME IS THE SAME.

It doesn't change any current rules. It just puts different rules on NEW stuff Funcom is providing. Don't like it? No one is forcing you to use them. Keep playing without them and you'll never know there was a patch

[_______________Vydas]

Originally posted by Paldorr
Let's get one thing straight - these level restrictions are for NEW nanos. SO WHAT !! Just don't use the new nanos and THE GAME IS THE SAME.

It doesn't change any current rules. It just puts different rules on NEW stuff Funcom is providing. Don't like it? No one is forcing you to use them. Keep playing without them and you'll never know there was a patch

Let's get another thing straight - these new nanos are being provided to bring classes that have been sorely lacking up to par. It is nothing short of a slap in the face to them to tell them that if they don't like it they can lump it and just happily play their gimped characters.

[__________Gallaphant]

I have to agree with almost everything said so far in this thread.

1. This is a skill based game. If someone wants to pay $12.95 a month to build a twinked character, that's his/her right. It's THEIR $12.95.

2. Level Requirements seem to take no notice of race. A Nanomage SHOULD be able to use nanos before other members of their respective professions.

3. Individuality. Level requirements destroy individuality. If we wanted to play cookie-cutter characters, we could play UO or DAoC.

Perhaps you believe that casual players (a large portion of the player base) are upset that Power-Players are so much stronger than they are. If that is the case, perhaps a better solution would be to create another server, one in which the playfield is leveled. Pun intended. But to punish the established players that have been here since the beta is just plain wrong. I know that you don't see it as punishment, but if the PLAYERS do, then perhaps you should take another look

Just my 2 cents.
Gallaphant

Lvl 50 Fixer
Lvl 43 MA
Lvl 25 Trader

[Myers]

Originally posted by Vydas


Let's get another thing straight - these new nanos are being provided to bring classes that have been sorely lacking up to par. It is nothing short of a slap in the face to them to tell them that if they don't like it they can lump it and just happily play their gimped characters.

I think it's all in the way you play the game.

[Archerror]

Do you honestly think they will not institute level restrictions on all the nanos for every profession?

Listen to his reasoning. If you extrapolate what he says, he is saying that all nanos should have a level associated with them and they will follow suit soon.

Homogenization ALWAYS leads to mediocrity. You seem to be hurting the ones who have stuck by you Funcom. Wait til the press hears about how you ignored the population and went ahead to make it coincide with your vision.

Remember 1 thing, my slap happy Norwegian friends. You are only landlords in this world. You need to listen to your tenants to find out what color we want walls to be. If not, we will move somewhere that cares.

Rave.

[Wildwal]

Originally posted by Paldorr
Let's get one thing straight - these level restrictions are for NEW nanos. SO WHAT !! Just don't use the new nanos and THE GAME IS THE SAME.

It doesn't change any current rules. It just puts different rules on NEW stuff Funcom is providing. Don't like it? No one is forcing you to use them. Keep playing without them and you'll never know there was a patch

Yeah, awesome idea, i wont use my class fixes.

Funcom please hire him

[georg]

Palldor-> That's so unbelievably shortsighted.
All new nanos, means the shadowthing ones too which will mostlikely be quite important. And do you really think it is _possibly_ (by then?) to have a huge portion of level req nanos (even more for some classes), and a few others with none ?

But its kinda obvious people do not want a 100% we are all the same levelbased game. ( no wonder alot of eq/daoc players are comming to ao). Even tho you cant costumize alot, the current skill/levelbased mix is working. The weapon oe was a major change, but it was announced/discussed for ages. This comes as a sudden slap in the games/costumers face.

<G> @ Wal
->Kaskin: Great post, summarizes it all ( read that instead of my useless drivel )

[______________Kaskin]

So far we are making more or less a page an hour and guess what - the consensus opinion among the player base is no.

Now, just in case you missed the essential points so far stated in all the various threads on this subject scattered across several boards, I shall sumarise.

The implementation of level requirements on nanos is felt, by the vast majority of the community to be a step in entirely the wrong direction by the game developers. The skill system used in AO to date allows a player to choose what facet of their own profession they wish to specialise in, and to make sacrifices to acheive their desired specialisation (or to concentrate equally upon all facets, thereby acheiving a kind of balance all of their own).

This inherently custom-build approach is what originally drew me to AO - I was attracted to the game by the concept of playing in a cyberpunk esque world, where individuals used skill boosting 'programs' and 'implants' to overtune and massively overboost their own bodily functions to acheive a result. I played the game, and realise it had what i sought - I could almost smell the similarities between the chop-shops of chiba and the streets of Omni-1. By placing level requirements upon nanoprograms you are removing what is, for me, one of the most enjoyable parts of the game.

Yes, it may well be that the players are not performing as you 'expected' us to behave, but this does not mean you can alter the fundamental basis of the game without expecting some form of backlash from those same players.

We do not want to be told when, and how, we can use our abilities. We do not want the implementation of artificial limitations upon our use of skills. We want to be able to specialise as we see fit, not to be told that we 'cannot' use our abilities to the maximum because you, Funcom, have decided that your game will not allow us.

Only the expenditure of IP should be allowed to limit the use of nanoprograms. Ever.

Now, in the case of certain nanoprograms there are certainly grounds for limitations. For example, it is the consensus of the fixer community that the NCU retool nanos should be limited, but that this limitiation should take the form of a Computer Literacy requirement, tested upon the TARGET of the nano (be it that the target of the nano is the caster, or otherwise), and that the requirement so tested should be in the range of 4 or 5 times the QL of the nano in question.

It is thought by Adventurers and Fixers alike that the placing of level requirements upon weapon skill buffs, which EVERY other class in the game has access to, is not only an incorrect decision, but is an insult to the members of those professions who have waited for a year for this problem to be addressed. No requirement other than nanoskills should be considered in the casting process.

Level requirements upon items and nanos should only be placed upon items which are in some way exceptional or specialised. An excellent example of this is the new Hack Grid Data Stream Nanos, which grant access to the fixer specific grid and are obtained as a result of a quest. Quest items such as this should be level restricted, as there should be a certain 'status' about their use. The Gamma ejector has been noted above as another example of such a 'status' loot item.

Quest items should be marks of achievement in a profession (and there should only be a few shining examples for each profession), and their existence should mark a character as one to be respected. Placing ordinary, everyday items on this footing devalues the status value of these items and fundamentally moves the game away from a skills based system and towards a level based clones game.

Furthermore, the (apparent) decision to place the majority of these nanocrystals in Team mission only boss loot cannot be condemned strongly enough. You are placing basic profession fixing items among some of the rarest drops in the game, and in the process you are essentially forcing the teaming structure upon ALL members of those classes, paying no heed to the likelyhood that many players cannot spend 7 hours a day running repeated team missions, nor would they have the desire to if they could afford the time to play for so long.

Adventurers, Fixers, Martial Artists and Agents are taking the thin end of a very big wedge, but consider the effects on the rest of the Professions in this game. The decision to alter then basis of the nano casting fundamentally devalues the abilities of those classes that can buff Nanoskills - in the main this will affect Traders and Metaphysicists, but consider the effects upon Engineers and Nanotechnicians, who make good xp (and in some cases rely upon payment) for Implant creation - with level requirements placed upon nanos there is far less impetus for characters to lean towards Tradeskills of this type, altering the game TOWARDS a combat only based system on the part of these characters - not what Funcom had in mind at all, i am sure.

Consider that if these additional restrictions are placed upon nanos for these two professions, then they WILL be placed upon all other future nanos - even if this doesn't affect you now, it WILL in the future. And once again, the NT's, Engy's and MP's, the professions most likely to enjoy the benefits of a patch in the near future will be the ones to suffer soonest, and in the case of the NT's this will harm the profession to a far far greater degree than any other.

And lastly consider the effects upon the balance between the Breeds available - NanoBreed characters are allready the weakest Breed available in AO, and this alteration to the game principles further weakens them, to the point where even Atrox characters are more desirable as general PvM caster classes (with NanoBreed having allready proved undesirable in PvP). What is the point of playing a NanoBreed character when these level restrictions mean any Atrox can cast EXACTLY the same nanos as you, because your skills no longer determine your increase in abilities.

The use of Level requirements is a fundamentally bad move that affects the vast majority of the Player base, maybe not now, but at some point in the future, and it cannot be considered a good thing for the direction of this game.

It is time for the development team at Funcom to make a choice - will they choose to listen to the population of the game, or will they chose to become the game company that changed the term 'worse customer service than verrant' from a theoretical possiblility into a all to real actuallity?

You have been warned Funcom. Not just by me, but by a lot of your players. Do not ignore us. I for one will leave if you proceed down this course, and many many others can see only other games on the horizon. If you mess this up, there is no way back.


edit note: changed a spelling error and some punctuation
second edit note: thank you all for reading such a long post. I didn't realise until just after i posted quite how long it is, but I feel very strongly about this issue and wanted to get all the relevant points accross.

[_______________Rypht]

apparently in the recently announced staff cutbacks, funcom got rid of their last few employees capable of competant thought. So we get the game changed to a level based system rather than skill based and in exchange funcom is going to grace us with this mythical shadowland expansion pack which is going to do nothing but add a cheesy biblical element to the game which means the last few remaining brain dead storyline people they have locked away won't even have to have a single braincell fire to come up with something else the players won't ever get behind... yay team. Hey funcom, if you are gonna force everyone into level based nanos, can we just do away with nano skills? I mean there's no point now right? Get to level X and get rewarded with mediocre nano Y!! YAAY

[________________Crin]

Originally posted by Kaskin
So far we are making more or less a page an hour and guess what - the consensus opinion among the player base is no....

Err...

What he said x2.

Great post. I was going to do one of those long well reasoned post, but now I don't have to. Besides my new copy of NeverWinter Nights is here and...

You get the point.

[______________Scorus]

The trouble with this explanation is that you have prevented many nanos from being equipped at the correct time. The level 47 adventurer pistol buff can be loaded, self-buffed, by level 40. It could be loaded without buffs by level 45. So how did you come up with level 50 on it so that it could not be 'over-equipped'?

Scorus

[____________Customer]

Gaute should be fired. Who can I write to about that?

He'll never work again with all these self-destructive unprofitable decisions on his resume.

Do you think he has bought a lot of stock in LusasArts/Verant/SWG?
That's the only explaination I can come up with..

[_____________Mr Bean]

Allow me fokes to handle the YES Men here posting here on the forum its obvious they have not thought through there positions on the matter

Let me summries

1. Its not the End of the World
For some of us, it is. I personly after trying out EQ came away disatifed. I bought cool spell X, but I needed to be level Y to use it and frankley I did not have Z time to get that high
I bought AO because of the pretty pictures a fixer named Luxxan and the fact this was a SKILL based Game
Thats what was on the box
And thats what I wanted to pay for

2.Its just one patch so what?
Yeah sure just one patch. One patch with TWO sets of class fixes and every single one has a level requirment
EVEN @$^%@^ ADVENTURE LEET FRIEND NANOS FOR GOD SAKE WHAT AM I GOING TO OE WITH THAT?
Exuse me for my tone but I tend to throw myself into anything I try

Now onto my own notes

Funcom
The Community was split on 14.2 Some did not want it but there was alot more YES votes than No

Now 14.4 comes along and with the expection of Pal and two people who have a post or two on the forum and one person
*It does not apply to me cause I'm nearly level 195
An arrgonet self-centered ego-centeral statment if I've ever seen one and NOT one I'd like to see coming from a Community Representive of mine though I don't play an MA DaveDred I ask you to reflect on your words

I'm willing to bet that if you polled 94% of AO's customers
PAYING customers mind you
Would be aginst this
Minus the 3% who like to be oposite whatever the popluar posting
1% the Missinformed the ones who clicked at random
And 2% people who could care less and/or who though it does not matter for some reason or another


I'm calling you to task Comsik this is not the USSR word from on High can not come without EXPLINATION
Your currant Explinaton Contradicts itself!


First off you say this

To make things clear, the way nano programs are created have not been altered at all.

When these new nano programs were created, a level was picked to determine when the nano program should be used. Skills are then chosen, based on that level, and not assuming you have maxed implants, maximum items and maximum external buffs. A percentage of this was chosen, and the skill requirements are the result

Thats sure as hell diffrent from what I see in-game Comsik! The currant nanos set-up seems to always assume you have the +20 generals running and at least implants of your level to self cast anything your QL


Even worse add up the numbers on the new nanos and we find not only has the old forumal not changed it seems you assume these people have more nano skills than before!

Adventurer shields are a good comparsion
http://auno.org/aodb.php?t=ag&cmd=view&nano=1&id=55837
Retribution of the Aesir
787 both Mat Mett and Mat Creation!


http://auno.org/aodb.php?t=ag&cmd=vi...no=1&id=161571
Cyclic Retribution of the Aesir
793 both Mat Met and Mat Creation
Oh and level 195 Requirement

Grated this could be explained away as its simply a better nano and I'd buy that IF COMSIK proved feedback

But it works across all nanos like this
A nano might be terrible!(Trader Nano drains come to mind) but they still have the same or close to reqs as other class nanos that level


Comsik and through him Funcom explain yourselfs
After all if not your customers then who?




Eh Comrade Comsik?

[Sgtsmile]

And here I thought this was a game.....



Nice to see so much mental energy wasted on something that a good lightning strike at the right time could ruin anyway...



sgt

[_______________Nuron]

I usually don't like to jump in on these things, as usually its an over reaction and way too much ignorance and drama going on.

This is an exception for me however. What you posted as the reason for all this has more holes then my bath sponge. Its all so contradictory its not even funny. Its almost as bad as when the game was released and one of the designers was asked if he honestly thought it was ready, 3 seperate times. Each time he answered it was. We all know how it went heh.

Everyone else has said it here. This level req stuff is pretty dang lame. Now I get to be more and more like every other lazy person that can't or will not be bothered to take the time and research to make themselves the best they can be. That is what my GF and I enjoyed most about this, planning our IP to get this and that worked out as best we could.

We never PvPed, exploited, or went around the public channles acting stupid going "look at my uber self". We did it cause we could and to see what we could do and come up with, kinda comparing what we could do to others we would see.

First the OE crap that we lived with. It was liveable. Now though you are going to mess with the nano line? That is just dumb. Plus your going to do it to Shadowlands as well? You had 2 for sure sales of the expansion here. If the level reqs on nanos goes through then I will be gone soon after. Thats 2 less accounts as well. NWN is here, MTG is here, a bunch of games are coming out really soon. I would love it if for once if you could show the brains that other companies and even your own could not show and actually change a bad idea into something we can all accept.

I hate this drama type BS, but this level for nanos idea is utter stupidity and in no way whatsoever makes it still skill based. LOL that is rich! These are 2 accounts that will be gone and probably a few friends with em. Gone means gone, not the idle boohoo we will quit. This is just ignorant putting level reqs and calling it skill based >(

[____________IronTide]

Originally posted by Cosmik
This change to nano programs is also being made in preparation for the Shadowlands expansion pack

not interested.

[___________Zeroshift]

LEVEL REQS = BAD

It's not so much the fact that these nanos have been set at a level for when you could "normally" cast it.

It's the fact that having an MP in the group is now USELESS. That is what the MP DID. The MP, the master of nano bots, unlocks your most powerful nanos for the team.

I don't even play an MP, adventurer, or fixer, but I am totally outraged for them. I also don't like what these changes are saying about the future of AO.

[___________Zeroshift]

I also don't consider the OE patch and level reqs on nanos the same thing.

Level reqs on nanos destroys the skill system.

The OE patch didn't remove the skill system, it enhanced it. It didn't put level reqs on gear. It was still skill based, the only difference being that you now accually had to have the skill to use it (within 20%).

[Brueskie]

Yeeeah... I believe this sucked the last bit of enthusiasm I had for the game outta me. All of FC's recent decisions reek of desperation. It's obvious that they're looking to the most popular mmorpg, EQ, and trying to guess what it is that's made it such a success. EQ is where it is for two reasons: first to market (for a 3d rpg mmorpg anyway) and powerful marketing (hey, it's Sony for chrissakes... they got cash to burn).

Fact is, FC has neither of these things going for them... and never will. They'd be smart to play up the DIFFERENCES between AO and other games currently on the market... not copy some of the worst aspects of those games.

To be honest, I actually feel pretty sorry for FC's development team. Employment opportunites in Norway can't be as varied or bountiful as they are elsewhere in the world (namely, the US) and they're just doing what they can to keep their jobs... but I ain't gonna keep playing this game just for pity's sake. Sorry.