Time is overdue to fix healing vs non-healing PvP.

[_______________Fryli]

Originally posted by Dasin
50%(damage) = 100%(heal)
100%(damage)=100%(heal) what you want is the same as...
50%(heal)=50%(damage)

just in case you still dont get it bro..

now tell me why nerf shields and layers when all you would be doing is lvling the play field as it was before damage being reduced? were shields and layers at 50% then

i think not,

think before you post

Ur pretty patetic if u dont agree upon the fact that shields, ( and to some degree layers) cant be compared with heals, u really have to enlighten me because i.e i can see a huge difrence between taking 25% dmg with 50/40 dmg rules and taking 25% dmg under 100%.
If heals is nerfed then all debuffs that affect healingskill have to be nerfed... and since Caol try give the impression of soldiers being easy for him to kill....with shield only... then maybe they should nerf Enfos reflect to get more balanced agains soldiers...

Soldiers need a boost yea, but still they are the best survivors in the game. In big batles they are the best.

[Oberan]

Fair isn't fair

you want fair as an enforcer. Well to be fair to an nt lets half the nanoresist buff on your rage. After all their damage is halved.

Hmm debuffs should be halved. So shoudl the duration on everything. Hmm lets halve the duration of MK shield and nullity to be fair. After all you cant have half damage without half duration.

As i said you wanna halve healings you need to halve EVERYTHING. Heals, buffs, damage, debuffs, duration, skill.

You describe something as fair. Yes it seems fair to you. Until you are on the receiving end of those nerfs. How about this. enforcers have too much hp and skill "Combat buffs- as they are used in combat". Half the duration and effect of their hp buffs and challenger and weapon buffs. Its all fair right?

Now would you be "Fair" with that?

Disclaimer - I am not towards the halving of everything but in favor of keeping the current system in place lest the whole game fall into to the halving chaos described above.

[_______________Fryli]

Yes, Oberon...exactly. but those ppl dont get it..

[Letah]

Originally posted by Caol


My thoughts exactly. Problem is that mobs have 20000000000 hp and the weapons are tuned more to PvM than PvP. Who wants a 2 sec fight anyways?

But since you mention it, Dasin has a point. 100% dmg back. Ok, 100% heals. It stays like it did. But gah, that's 2 sec fights (remember that noone complained that heals were to weak, people complained about duells ending to fast).
Oh ok, so we reduce dmg to 50% and make heals 50%.. Longer PvP fights. Everyone is happy. Docs wouldn't complain. It's not like we made 100% dmg and 50% heals.

But the it happened: I remember when dmg went to 50% and heals stayed at 100%. Even docs' couldn't believe their eyes. And now you act like 2x effective heals is a given. C'mon...

And... add bracers on top of that.

FunCom spoiled the healers, (especially docs and traders) and now they whine like little children when we present a fair idea.

lol you didnt read my big post at all? Its not the docs you'll greatly gimp with 50% its the the other classes!

[________________Caol]

Originally posted by Oberon
Fair isn't fair

you want fair as an enforcer. Well to be fair to an nt lets half the nanoresist buff on your rage. After all their damage is halved.

Hmm debuffs should be halved. So shoudl the duration on everything. Hmm lets halve the duration of MK shield and nullity to be fair. After all you cant have half damage without half duration.

As i said you wanna halve healings you need to halve EVERYTHING. Heals, buffs, damage, debuffs, duration, skill.

You describe something as fair. Yes it seems fair to you. Until you are on the receiving end of those nerfs. How about this. enforcers have too much hp and skill "Combat buffs- as they are used in combat". Half the duration and effect of their hp buffs and challenger and weapon buffs. Its all fair right?

Now would you be "Fair" with that?

Disclaimer - I am not towards the halving of everything but in favor of keeping the current system in place lest the whole game fall into to the halving chaos described above.

Doc! One brain over here please!

Then let's make everything 50%. You said it yourself. If you halve something, you have to halve EVERYTHING. Thus 50% dmg and 100% everything else cannot be fair. Right?

And gah, don't hit me with this crap that I want everyone else nerfed but myself...

I've explained this 200 times and if you havn't fetched it, dig back in the posts already. I'll give you a hint. I kill soldiers with rrf and dmg shields going full deff without even starting to attack em. That's uber. I want it nerfed, cuz it's madness. I'll even give you another hint. I'm a healer. I mongo. Tick HP Tick HP. Our primary PvP buff is a HoT and you tell me that I want everyone but myself nerfed?

Take the blue pill.

[________________Caol]

Originally posted by Fryli
Yes, Oberon...exactly. but those ppl dont get it..

You agree with Oberon that healing cannot be 50% without making everything 50%...then explain to me how the current system with dmg 50% and the rest at 100% is fair... Please.

You all shout "Oh wha!? If you make heals 50% .. omg! Then you must make EVERYTHING 50%!"

Why didn't you all shout that when they made dmg 50%?

Everything 100% or everything 50%. That's fair. And you said it yourself.

Now give soldiers back their 100% dmg. It's about time. And at the same time, take out bracers, because.. well, they make heals better. I don't see no Bracers of Life - 21% add to HP bracers out there to counteract heals down...

No need to make this into a mathematical hellride.

Why didn't you doc shout that you needed 200% heals when dmg was at 100%? Why?

[Breaku]

Im fine with setting deflect screens to 50%, aswell as reducing the amount of layers being cast by enfs.
As long as heals are getting recuced.

And no I am in NO way for a 100% damage change. Like caol said, fights would not even last for 2 seconds.
All very logic once you look at it from a neutral standpoint.

Regarding reflect, I agree with caol here again and think that this is aswell straight logic.

If everybody would just stop being so affraid of that their proff is getting hit and stand up for a better and more balanced pvp system this might get somewhere eventually.

[_______________Sjoko]

Ok after reading all the posts (so far) I can only try and explain the situation.

I'm not trying to cry nerf of docs, but something needs to be done.

The thing is that people fail to realize is that classes without healing like the soldier (disregarding one more hit healing) are left dried out of the system the way it is now.

The soldier I play is 100% dependant upon the damage that I do, I have only the MK X shield to protect me, but since combats usually last longer than 1:20 nowadays a doc (for instance) have no problem outliving the soldier.

I am now using the Custom Heavy Suppressor, that gun alone has made me go from being gimped in pvm to actually manage to solo medium and 60% missions (for now, until the RM and Aces turn up in missions). So in pvm I'm happy as ever, I can finally go out and do missions selfbuffed. I have to use MK maybe 1 or 2 times during a mission which is fine by me.

When we come to PVP which is why I'm replying, it's no fun anymore. If I shoot at someone, even tho they only have 30% deflect, I don't hit them for 1/4 or what I do in pvm. I tested my gun in pvp the other day and I saw how bad I was doing. On someone without 30% deflect I managed to get a good alpha and the person died after 2 alphas from myself and another soldier.

To make a comparison of how it is for soldier, I'll just make some number crunching:
I normally hit mobs from 200 - 1350, average is about 600 - 700.
But let's say I were to hit for max damage every time.
1350 pvm damage is 675 pvp damage.

Normally the classes I face in pvp either self buffed or outside buffed have hp of 5000-14000 (which is what messman and wolfe brag to have)

That is 8 shots for the one with the lowest hp (without specials) and 21 shots for the 14k hp enforcer. It takes about 1 second to fire that gun (for me at least) which is 21 seconds. Let's take the doc, 8k hp with temp hp and their best hp buff (prolly, some have even more I assume). 8k / 675 is 12 hits. Which is 12 seconds. Their hp buffs will help their hp regenerate faster and since they have about 4-6k nanopool they can get those 12 hits 3-4 times extra due to the 1400 nano cost of Complete healing. That means a doc would self buffed (disregarding recompiler, gaily painted hood etc) withstand 36 - 48 seconds. Also disregarding their init debuff which has a HUGE impact on how fast the guns shoot.

Now for some reason I have the abillity to get critted a lot, with the tms (and no bracers) I get hit for 365. I have in total 6400 hp (well close to that) but let's say the person don't crit as much and rather hits normal damage. Which should be around 100, I can withstand 64 shots of that. If they have shotguns they will get damage from mk and do measly damage with a 365 crit once and a while.

And now this is just basic shooting at eachother, disregarding buffs.

Now we come to the part where the doc has choices to how they do damage where a soldier don't have any other choices. A doc can dot us 2x. In pvp they do 50% but still the damage is consistant and goes through MK. They do around 450 damage in total (I didn't bother to check but still it's approx enough) they. That damage alone 275 points less than I do with my regular max damage (which isn't the case, but bear with me on this). They do drain the nano pool with 2100 (approx) in total, which means 1 less ch. Maybe 2 if you're unlucky, they they can do rapid palsy for 347 nano cost. In total 2400. (2 ch's less), but also debuffs -1165 to ranged init. Self buffed I have 1066 ranged init, and that buff will make me get -99 inits. Which means that my guns turn out to be 3 seconds instead of 1.

Now with outside buffs, bracers, 30% deflect, nano init buffs, cost reducing buffs and items. The list goes on and on.

Nano cost modifiers have little effect on a soldier since he can throw his mk X once (some maybe twice, but not in 2 minutes).

If you don't see where I'm heading I'll explain.

A class meant for killing is bad at killing in pvp, because the very foundation of which the class has been build (DAMAGE) has been reduced by 50%.

A doc isn't originally the combat class, they don't deal the most damage, but you have what I call dynamics in combat (which is choices). If you feel like just healing up, you can do that, if you feel like going for the kill you can make the combat class useless by giving them a debuff that is -2569. The best init buff this is possible to get from others is a soldier +133 init buff. The debuff is then 20 times (almost) as 'good' as the best buff. Ok it maybe breaks more easily, but still, -2569 will make anyone regardless of class shoot, nuke, root, dot etc like a turtle.

For soldiers pvp is straight out, no tactics, no smart moves or anything, just damage and some specials. It was effective until 50% rule came along.

Now the soldiers have turned into a straight out class with problem to kill anyone because they do damage x 0.50 x 0.70 or 0.38. (I'm sorry to say this, and I hate to admit it, but this prolly goes for NTs too, since the only choice they have is crown of frost which lasts for just some seconds)

Ok all this may sound like whining, but I'm trying to explain how it is. And since you all are intelligent people I guess you can figure out that due to randomness 675 damage isn't steady damage in pvp or 1350 is steady damage in pvm.

I'm not aiming at giving the docs some beating with the nerf stick, nor do I want docs nerfed in any way. But I hope that people can understand that being a soldier in pvp nowadays isn't fun. Healing is much more powerful in the longrun than using mk for 1:20 every 2 minutes.

So what do we have in the soldier, and it's time to find the link where it describes the soldier again http://www.anarchy-online.com/conten...6/soldier.html

Strong fields
Health
Ranged combat
Some trade skills
Navigation

Yep, I have about the same hp as a doc when he's buffed and I have maybe 1k more hp than other classes apart from the enforcer.

Weak fields
Close combat
Nano formula skills

Well since I deal the same damage while being up close to an enemy or being far away, I guess that isn't what they meant. But yes, we have poor melee attackskills which is what they prolly mean.

Key skills
Body development
Operate Heavy Weapons
All ranged skills except bow skills
Ranged initiative
Tutoring
Vehicle Ground

Let's see body dev, light green.
Hw skill is green, but only our total focus buffs that.
All ranged skills, well... either rifle or shotgun is light blue and one of them are light green.
Ranged init, well it's green alright, but with a measly +133 buff, I can't say that we have a ranged init that is close to even do any difference against a -1200 debuff
Tutoring.. if we could only figure out how that is useful
Vehicle ground, green, but I used less points on a ql 30 yalm than I did with a ql 80 kodaik. Actually after ipr I didn't use any points at all on my yalm. But I would still have used 150 points (not ips) to use my ql 80ish kodaik again and still go slower.


Nanos
Damage deflect shield
Damage buff
Armor buff
Health buff
Healing
Ranged weapon buff
Taunt
Speed buff

Damage deflect shields, yep, we rule there.
Damage buff... Damage multiplyer (x2 +4 damage one last for 30min the other for 1hour), we got another which gives +10 with the same setting and of course we got automatic targeting, which is a whopping +23 offense (taking 33ncus tho)
Armor buff, yeap, if only ac had something to say in pvp. Oh and the ac buffs is a joke.
Health buff, same as above.
Ranged weapon buff, well pistol, rifle, assault rifle, ranged energy and total focus. We got them, but is that enough?
Taunts, yeah we god dd nanos, dealing 1 damage, which has worked 2 times in total.
All I've seen is attack booster and offensive steamroller. IF that counts as a speed buff we got it.

Let me sum this up:

Soldier
"So you want to be a REAL fighter, huh? Good, good! Well, don't just stand there looking like a wet noodle, let me tell you all about the good life of a Soldier! First thing you will do is train. We are mean, lean fighting machines and we must always be in ready, alert and in prime condition. We are able to train in just about every weapon type we choose...well, the ones that matter anyway! Hur, hur, hur. Are you listening to me, cadet? Good, good. Ranged weapons are the way to go and we do not hesitate showing off our expertise on the battlefield. Give me a target, and I'll obliterate it! You will be trained in the art of nano technology to further boost your body to the ultimate level. You will use this technology to boost your health, increase your damage output, improve your armor, taunt enemies to attack you and even deflect damage back onto your attackers through the use of a shield. Use it all! In my book, the only good enemy is a dead enemy. Don't just stand there catching flies in your open mouth, get moving! Be useful. Be strong. Be a Soldier! Hut, hut hut."
Overview
The Soldier is the master of firearms, and the pillar of any combat squad. He has a huge potential for dealing damage at long range, and the health to withstand being on the receiving end. The Soldier is lacking in most other fields though, but with the use of the proper nano programs he is so effective at dishing out damage, that anything else becomes insignificant.

^^^
Is not the desciption of the current soldier in PVP.

[outlawgimp]

what the hell is oberon talking about when he says we should nerf enforcer, soldier shields if we were to do the same to heals,

dont you see

100%(damage)=100%(heal) is the same as
50%(heal)=50%(damage)

were mongo at 50% then, were shields at 50% then when damage was at 100%?. NO THEY WERE BLOODY NOT. if we were to revert to 100%damage its the same as reducing heals to 50 % so how can you keep on with this same argument????

ad love to see your answer this (waiting for your logical answer),

and fryli for once try to answer the argument and dont try to get around it, al even put it into simple english for you,

if reducing heals to 50% is the same as restoring damage to 100% (of course you still cant instant kill but thats good in a way), why are you talking about nerfing shields, layers, etc?

and again al say it when damage was at 100% were shields, layers, at 50 % then? rediculous

(sorry for explaiing the same stuff twice but some guys needs help)

why dont funcom just make damage 100 percent again and leave the one shot kill cap in place (so you still cant kill in one shot)? thats the same as reducing heals to 50% lol these docs sure dont get it huh, then the likes of oberon cant cry reduce shields, layers, this and that

[Julka_Pomy]

Hehe Sjoko great post epsecialy i liked the end .

But who said we are not combat class? Who even came up with idea of suport class? I feal more combat class then you why becasue we have 3 lines of offencive nanos and you have none (we cant count tount as offeincive nanos) we have DoT, DD, Debuff. We also can do good damage from shotguns.

Also the reason why pvp damge was halfed is insta kills and player do mroe damge then mobs. My heals were originaly designed to heal against mobs and i hardly can find mob that does 675 damge on me. Usualy its like 200-300 nothing more. 675 is your pvp damge my best personal heal is 1.28k AT the best and i usualy heal like 900-1100 plus even if i instacast it i get 4.56 seconds recharge time.

You see you still do more damge then mobs... And players dont have as good HP as mobs usualy monsters have like 1.5-2 times mroe HP then player.

You cant nerf heals they are not powerful its just looks like they powerful becasue sadenly after 12.8 healers becasme strong. No after 12.8 they didnt becasem strong they just stop getting instakilled. Everyone say that soldeir was better in full damge times. No he wsnt all soldier had was instakills with alpha in long if no instakill then soldeir is dead. I remebr beating soldeir many times in full damge era.

I was, i am and i will kill soldiers no matter what you give them. Becasue your class is tanking class and doctor are more flexible and have mroe tools for pvp.

[Letah]

The Doctor is the master of keeping people alive, but can also turn his knowledge of living tissue into a deadly weapon. From the view of the other professions, he is possibly the most popular addition to any team. A Doctor is always needed as he if often the one who has to save the day when the going gets a little bit tougher than expected.

Strong fields
Healing

Nano formula skills

Some trade skills

Weak fields
Combat through all means besides nano programs

Most initiatives

Key skills
Nano Pool

Nano Execution Initiative

Nano Resistance

Computer Literacy

First Aid

Treatment

All nano skills

Nanos
Damage over time

Direct damage

Healing

Healing over time

Team healing

Combat initiative/damage debuff



See? docs are also meant to be damage dealers, and great ones as well. It does NOT say we're a support class at all!! Like Pomy said.

we are a "deadly weapon" and we are "master of keeping people alive". Seems WE are perfectly ok.

yes, I agree, soldiers are gimps, and like Sjoko said, the FC story on soldiers is not correct.. so..

What do some ppl say now: Hey, soldiers are gimps, nerf doc! Errrrrr WE are ok, soldiers are gimped. So how to fix? Yes ypu get it, give soldiers a boost. Dont you dare touch a class that's perfect and well balanced!

I dont care what you soldiers get, hey, sure have fun with it, i wont complain. I WILL when you ask for a nerf because of you own gimpness.

Expect shadowlands to make docs even more battle orientated, because I bet our subclasses will be heal and combat based subs.

[______________Sredni]

I agree with Letah and pomka, if a doc works at it they should be good at pvp. Every class should be able to be good at pvp because lets face it... there's nothing else to do past lvl 130 or so.

As things stand soldiers are now a support class, all we're around for is to buff other people with 30% reflect shields... and provide easy kills for people in need of title points.

Personally, I just want damage to go back to 100% *shrug*, and for funcom to unerf my poor nerfed soldier @ss.

[_______________Gravy]

i'm probably alone in thinking this, but i think they're on the right track with what they did with crit buffs. IMO, ALL proffs nano's should be self cast only, and they should all have crappier versions for others that take up an absurd amount of ncu. Either that or make all buffs avaible to team members only, and once you leave the team, the buffs wear off. Might encourage more team pvp since you'd have to pick and choose what proffs you want in your team and whatnot. just a few thoughts

[______________Wuushu]

Letah,

Do you think a doc with 72% ref? and 100% heal is ok?

if so, you are just afraid u wont be 'uber' anymore...
im not talking about sol vs. doc here.. im talking about non-healer vs. any healer..

it's very unballanced as it is now..

Wuushu - gimp sol

[Letah]

Originally posted by Wuushu
Letah,

Do you think a doc with 72% ref? and 100% heal is ok?

if so, you are just afraid u wont be 'uber' anymore...
im not talking about sol vs. doc here.. im talking about non-healer vs. any healer..

it's very unballanced as it is now..

Wuushu - gimp sol

If you'd know me I always PvP selfbuffed, though sometimes I use an essence for the extra HP. I never ask for MoP, TTS, RRF. RRF I ask when I fight clan bu in arena-duels I dont.

WITH selfbuffs I easely win from soldiers too, and with some effort from enforcers as well.

This does not mean Docs are uber, we're qutie well. Im getting owned by MP, Trader. This DOES mean however that soldiers will need extreme loving, and some other classes too (fixer anyone?)

About bracers? I use dual shrinkers because that fits in my roleplaying. Im still apprentice.. after 14.2

50% heal means you'll maybe fix dosc to a lower pvp level but you'll outright gimp ma, mp, trader and adv. They cant use that nerf they have it hard enough as it is, yes trader as well after 14.4

[outlawgimp]

why does everyone keep saying nerf, when traders got it everyone called it a fix?

i dont care how good you are at combat i just want things made fair and at the moment it isnt, read me previous post and ul see why

p.s funcom should just make it clear where soldiers stand in pvp are they meant to be the best or compentant like nts?

[outlawgimp]

also i think funcom should make it clear what classes are meant to be the best at pvp it seems to many docs have a ego problem i will still never believe that they were designed to be able to own enforcers in a one on one battle. they let us know nts were designed to be competant now tell us where docs stand?

hehe me thinks many docs will not like funcoms vision of them in pvp. kinda sucked when i found nts were not meant to be good in pvp but hey we lived with it i think its time docs found there place too

[_______________Fryli]

Originally posted by Dasin
also i think funcom should make it clear what classes are meant to be the best at pvp it seems to many docs have a ego problem i will still never believe that they were designed to be able to own enforcers in a one on one battle. they let us know nts were designed to be competant now tell us where docs stand?

hehe me thinks many docs will not like funcoms vision of them in pvp. kinda sucked when i found nts were not meant to be good in pvp but hey we lived with it i think its time docs found there place too

Son, if ur not inteligent anough to see that shiels, layers also got stronger with 50/40 then there is no point in arguing. Heck even evac, runbuffs, hp-buffs, ac-buffs got better with 50/40.
And when u even fail to see that Mongo is a heal with hot, then i resign.

Are u new to the game? because i played under 100% dmg and doc's where doing just as good as other classes in PvP. and i did not even have CH at that time

[Letah]

Originally posted by Dasin
hehe me thinks many docs will not like funcoms vision of them in pvp. kinda sucked when i found nts were not meant to be good in pvp but hey we lived with it i think its time docs found there place too

As long as Cosmik and other reply my posts as "im sorry but Doctors are the example of a balanced class" I dont really fear any nerfs yet. I'll bet my carrier on it that they will never make heals 50%

Im ok with removing RRF and bracers, I dont care anyways.

[______________Wuushu]

Letah,
heh.. not many pvp without crit / ref..
so u cant say that etc etc.. becuase I dont pvp with outside buffs..

no flaming.. but thats the way it is in AO.. when i duel anyone.. i *know* they have ref running..


Wuushu - 177 soldier