Time is overdue to fix healing vs non-healing PvP.

[________________Caol]

POST 200!

Omg! I made a 200 post thread! *prewd*

[______________Alyniexx]

As a trader, I thought I'd inject my thoughts into this thread.

First, like Letah keeps pointing out over and over again, a 50% reduction in heals would severely hurt non-doctor healing classes. Currently, I can heal myself by 640, which would be reduced to 320. I'm almost wasting my time if I decide to stop and heal. The same thing goes for MA's and I assume Adventurers, since their heals usually only heal the minimum amount.

Second, as a trader, our livelihood in duels relies on landing a divest and plunder. That's about 16 seconds of cast/recharge time where we can't heal (if they don't get countered). True, that in some cases, we can root and run around to try to avoid getting hit while we wait out the recharge time, but in many cases (i.e. arena dueling), this isn't really viable. During those 16 seconds, I'm getting pounded on. With a 320 heal, there is no way that I'll be able to ever heal the damage. A trader simply does not have enough life to be able to take damage and not heal.

Third, nerfing reflect severely hurts classes that don't have heals. Yes, it does make healing classes more powerful. Personally, I'd rather have reflect work the way it works now and make it more possible that different professions will actually enter PvP zones. Also, I love the fact that fights can potentially last for minutes now. I absolutely hated fighting in the past where, with UVC, I could kill most folks before I can stack a plunder. It's just not fun at all. It's hard enough finding someone to duel now a days. Once I find someone, I want the duel to last.

Fourth, doctors who can't CH really aren't very good at PvP. At the lower levels before CH, they have to make a lot of compromises in order to equip a good weapon and max evades, etc. There is also the fact that playing a doctor can be extremely boring, and I rather like that high level doctors can PvP well. It's their reward for 150 levels of healing other folks in PvM. It's not like there are so many of them running around anyways.

Fifth, I don't remember who made this point, but it's a very good point. Please, please stop placing so much emphasis on how Funcom describes the professions in their manual. That is all junk. There is so much crap in that manual that is no longer true. And pease, please stop comparing RL doctors and soldiers to the AO professions. There is absolutely no reason why there has to be a correlation between RL fighting ability and AO fighting ability. I don't have any idea what a profession like the trader would be in RL. There is no RL person who can transfer around skills, heal, nano, etc. This argument doesn't make any sense at all.

Sixth, everyone is so focused on the high level game. If some of these changes are actually implemented, dueling at low levels is flipped on its side as well. Making huge enormous changes like some of the ones suggested in this thread will dramatically impact a huge part of this game, not just the >150 PvP game.

And lastly, in a game like this, balance will never, ever be achieved. It's just not possible even if Funcom makes the rules completely different for PvM and PvP. Thus, there will always be some classes who are better than others. As a trader, I can potentially beat any class, but I've lost to plenty of soldiers, enforcers, MA's, etc. I've probably died more to MA's lately than I've died to all the other classes combined. According to Caol, I'd get my butt whipped if I try to duel him. At the same time, I know that if I duel a doctor, even one who is 20 levels higher than me, I'll probably win. Some classes are just better at PvP than others, and the comparative ranking of professions will always change as time goes on. If a particular class is horrible at PvP, ask to make them better. Don't ask to nerf the ones who are already good.

[____________Infamine]

K then can i ask my own class to have their TMS,FA and burst unerfed, i wanna do 13k dmg FA in pvp again that would fit me and it aint nerfing anyone....


btw whats " mmm yep" ? ~

[________________Caol]

Originally posted by Infamine
btw whats " mmm yep" ? ~

That would be me thinking for a sec and .. agreein' on the previous post. =p

[___________Obergeist]

Professions that can heal self:
Adventurer
Agent(depends on FP)
Enforcer
Doctor
Trader
Martial Artist
Fixer
MP


Professions that can't:
Crat
Engineer
Soldier
Nano Tech

The professions that cannot heal have the following defense in PvP:

Crat-Root
Engineer-AC buffs(useless), Caccoon nanos(reflect)
Soldier-AC buffs(useless), Reflection shields/TMS
Nano Tech-Root, Layers, rare cases Nullity Sphere

Four professions that have no means of healing outside of first aid kits.... yeah...

Reflection makes the differance between damage dealing and healing in PvP MORE servere. As much as I hate to say it, nerf the hell out of bracers. I'm hesitant to add to make Reflection self only as it's a very important buff in PvM, and makes the fights more bearable... but 72% reflect is simply, NUTS.

It's fairly ironic that MAs used to get owned by UVC, and now soldiers are being owned by RRF...

Balance is impossible to reach. The only way to reach that would be to make EVERY profession the same. I wouldn't mind that, I could use some drains, roots and heals. But the 12 professions are already hugely homogenized ie calming, Crats, Nts, Traders and now Adventurers to a limited degree. Instead of trying to balance the game towards 1 on 1,what's needed is hunter prey type system with checks and balances needs to be implamented, where no one profession dominates the others. Sadly, FC wouldn't know how or even where to begin to make such a system.

So we can only make suggestions and nudge them towards what 'we' (I use the term loosely) to make PvP more fun. Of course, everyone that posts on the boards for the most part are more interested in their professions perspective, and don't give a blaze about the other 11.

[_______________Sjoko]

Originally posted by Alynie
As a trader, I thought I'd inject my thoughts into this thread.

First, like Letah keeps pointing out over and over again, a 50% reduction in heals would severely hurt non-doctor healing classes. Currently, I can heal myself by 640, which would be reduced to 320. I'm almost wasting my time if I decide to stop and heal. The same thing goes for MA's and I assume Adventurers, since their heals usually only heal the minimum amount.

Traders were promised new lines of healing when this nerfage came of age. So don't count the chickens before they are hatched. But yes if heals were to be 50% today it would mean that your heals would be insignificant.

Second, as a trader, our livelihood in duels relies on landing a divest and plunder. That's about 16 seconds of cast/recharge time where we can't heal (if they don't get countered). True, that in some cases, we can root and run around to try to avoid getting hit while we wait out the recharge time, but in many cases (i.e. arena dueling), this isn't really viable. During those 16 seconds, I'm getting pounded on. With a 320 heal, there is no way that I'll be able to ever heal the damage. A trader simply does not have enough life to be able to take damage and not heal.

I have a low level trader, he doesn't use 16 seconds to land 2 divests. The recharge is 6.26 - 6.27 or something, but the nano is instacast at least for me. In a combat situation you do have some choices, if the going gets tough you can always root and run. It takes time, yes but not 16 seconds.

Fifth, I don't remember who made this point, but it's a very good point. Please, please stop placing so much emphasis on how Funcom describes the professions in their manual. That is all junk. There is so much crap in that manual that is no longer true. And pease, please stop comparing RL doctors and soldiers to the AO professions. There is absolutely no reason why there has to be a correlation between RL fighting ability and AO fighting ability. I don't have any idea what a profession like the trader would be in RL. There is no RL person who can transfer around skills, heal, nano, etc. This argument doesn't make any sense at all.

Since we don't have much else to go by, the profession manual is where we have to look to see what they had planned for the professions. Since the manuals haven't been updating the Soldier profession into Gimp class yet, we should be allowed to hope that the Gimp class will one day turn into soldier, again.

When I made my character, I made cause I wanted to kick my opponents asses, cause when you think of it a soldier isn't the name of a profession you would think can do much other things, besides kicking ass. Am I right ? Of course I am. But once healing became such a powerful weapon against all my (ehm one) defensive nano, the soldier became gimps.

Sixth, everyone is so focused on the high level game. If some of these changes are actually implemented, dueling at low levels is flipped on its side as well. Making huge enormous changes like some of the ones suggested in this thread will dramatically impact a huge part of this game, not just the >150 PvP game.

Let's face the facts shall we. Ok now I have levelled slow with Sjokomelk, but still most people use more time in the 150-200 level group than they do in the 1 - 150 level group. Not saying we should ignore the "littleuns" at all, but they have an easier task tweaking themselves than we higherlevels do.

And lastly, in a game like this, balance will never, ever be achieved. It's just not possible even if Funcom makes the rules completely different for PvM and PvP. Thus, there will always be some classes who are better than others. As a trader, I can potentially beat any class, but I've lost to plenty of soldiers, enforcers, MA's, etc. I've probably died more to MA's lately than I've died to all the other classes combined. According to Caol, I'd get my butt whipped if I try to duel him. At the same time, I know that if I duel a doctor, even one who is 20 levels higher than me, I'll probably win. Some classes are just better at PvP than others, and the comparative ranking of professions will always change as time goes on. If a particular class is horrible at PvP, ask to make them better. Don't ask to nerf the ones who are already good.

Well it doesn't hurt to try and balance out things. People OBVIOUSLY didn't think of that when they wanted damage reduced. They thought it was cool.

If you take a trader today, which has a lot of pvp experience, they are SO certain they win any duel or any fight that they attack you like a soldier would do.

If you take a soldier today, which has a lot of pvp experience, they are SO certain they loose any duel or fight they they run away from you like a trader SHOULD be doing.

Trade skill master and master of trading skills should not be on the pvp throne. So ok, let's not have balance just dethrone those traders and docs and we might have a chance... Ohbtw that would prolly mean making heals 50% and damage 100%.

Gah, bah, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

(sorry, my version of a whining cloudeh thread ) (and sorry cloudeh I just couldn't help myself in the last statement )

[________Billy Talent]

Reduce healing and debuffs in PvP or just unnerf my nukes.

It is not fair to reduce some professions strengths and not others.

[______________Alynie]

Originally posted by Sjoko
Traders were promised new lines of healing when this nerfage came of age. So don't count the chickens before they are hatched. But yes if heals were to be 50% today it would mean that your heals would be insignificant.

This isn't true. When the first 'solution' was released from Funcom for the team heal fix, they were going to place a 15 second lock on the team heal and introduce new heals that we could cast during the 15 second lock. Instead, in their second 'solution' they changed it to the current state where we can cast a different QL team heal, stack our DoT, and thus make the heal completely useless. Funcom hasn't responded to any of our requests to make the team heal viable again for PvM.

Originally posted by Sjoko
I have a low level trader, he doesn't use 16 seconds to land 2 divests. The recharge is 6.26 - 6.27 or something, but the nano is instacast at least for me. In a combat situation you do have some choices, if the going gets tough you can always root and run. It takes time, yes but not 16 seconds.

Well, I was factoring some real world factors like lag, time to press the button, etc. Also, the attack time for the divest is 4.49s. Even with a 1k+ nanoinit like me, it still takes more than a second to cast the divest. It may seem like instacast, but it's not.

Originally posted by Sjoko
Since we don't have much else to go by, the profession manual is where we have to look to see what they had planned for the professions. Since the manuals haven't been updating the Soldier profession into Gimp class yet, we should be allowed to hope that the Gimp class will one day turn into soldier, again.

Just imagine someone who has the ability to steal your skills, nano, life then use it against you. That's one scary person. Imagine someone who can completely heal themselves of all damage in an instant, slow down your actions, poison you and carry a gun. That's one scary person. The manuals are only to give newbies some idea what to expect when they chose a profession and they are rather outdated now.

Soldiers aren't what they used to be, but they aren't the worst either. At lower levels, the description for soldiers fits quite well. It's at the higher levels where the balance starts to shift when IP starts to flow freely and powerful tools like reflect bracers come into play. Soldiers only have the ability to do damage and protect themselves with TMS. That's it. At lower levels, that's often more than enough. It makes sense to me that they would have trouble with professions that have special abilities like traders and doctors.

Originally posted by Sjoko
Let's face the facts shall we. Ok now I have levelled slow with Sjokomelk, but still most people use more time in the 150-200 level group than they do in the 1 - 150 level group. Not saying we should ignore the "littleuns" at all, but they have an easier task tweaking themselves than we higherlevels do.

Yes, I agree. It is much harder to change a high level character and there is a huge time investment already. I was just pointing out that any changes will affect a lot of people and not just the two or three dozen high level folks who PvP.

Originally posted by Sjoko
Well it doesn't hurt to try and balance out things. People OBVIOUSLY didn't think of that when they wanted damage reduced. They thought it was cool.

Soldiers have had their day in the sun. A lot of these complaints are because soldiers used to be a lot better than they are now. Things change. I'm not saying that I don't feel bad for all the soldiers who used to spend so much time PvP'ing because they were good and had fun. Changes allow other professions to start doing well. For example, it's cool that Fotik can PvP well now. I can't imagine he would have ever dreamed of it during 100% damage and pre-bracers.

50% damage was a great idea. It makes duels last longer and makes it much more fun. Instadeath absolutely sucks. 50% allows folks who don't have the protection of a 100% reflect shield and big heals to actually enter a PvP zone.

Caol started this whole thread partially because he said that he thought enforcers were too uber and needed to be balanced. He says that he can beat any trader, but he can't beat doctors. Traders can beat doctors. I know from personal experience that I often have plenty of trouble bringing down a big enforcer. Soldiers need Funcom love to bring them up to par, as do a lot of other classes. Nerfing heals and reflect isn't the solution.

[____________Infamine]

AS i sayed and Vegan did DONT nerf anything, just unerf Soldiers and NT DMG.
for NTs :
- unnerf their nuke dmg
- unnerf their stuns

for Soldiers i already sayed it

we'll see after how long itll take till people start asking again to nerf stuns etc...

One funny thing tho, is that all NT i know agreed and asked FC to nerf the stun nano because it was too powerfull, dont tell me NT are the only one with a brain on the all planet... makes me feel sorry for them to even ask it they should've gone the way this goes ... no its not overpowered, yes i can kill anyone without problem but still its fair and fun aint it.... gimme a break the only profession that atm seems to realise what the problem is are the one that get hurts and some other that actually think that when they fight someone it may be funny for both even if you die

[caljeriko]

Originally posted by Letah
we dont have good evades, we dont have good health, we dont have good damage.. we make that up with heals.

TAKE AWAY THEIR HEALS!!!


well sorry but rotflmao, half your beam QL too then.

well they took away soldiers(and everyones damage), damage is in one end, healing in the other. You cant half one of them and expect that the balance will remain, have the same cap on heals in pvp would be fair.(and that includes hots).

They didnt half damage because the healing classes needed help in pvp, it was to help ALL classes in pvp.
/cal

[Turin]

Originally posted by Wo "Caol" Ha
Anyways.

My fix for the silly imbalance between healers and non healers is:

1) Make Soldier Reflect/Deflect Shield self-only.
2) Make Engineers Cacoon self-only.
3) Make Humidity Extractor line (NT) Self-only and give a massive boost to their efficiency. (After all, it's not like unlimited nano for a NT has any unbalancing issues like it has with a doc .. ie. unlimited heals).
4) Reduce amount reflected from bracers to 10% from QL200 TL6 bracers.
5) Either hinder MA's ability to change dmg type once fight has started or make one single Bracer of Reflection respond to all dmg types. (Their critbuff, heals, ability to fight at 35% aggro at capped speed is without doubt enough to secure the MA an easy win).
6) For hunting and team PvP, Make a Soldier and Engineer team-version of the Reflect/Deflect Shield & Cacoon. Make these buffs terminate when you leave team.
7) For hunting and team PvP, Make a Humidity Extractor team-version, executable by the NT. Make these buffs terminate when you leave team.

Also, I am not saying this just to vent or make my own profession more uber. I am infact a healer myself, and I -really- enjoy 68% reflect when I mongo heal for 200+ every 2 sec... I don't want uber-profs to excist and I sure as hell don't wanna be one.

Right now, doc's rule. I can't win over a doc. I think that's bizzare. Also, right now, I can kill a soldier going full deff, with rrf and 2x 18% bracers, with just the dmg he gets off my dmg shield and reflect. I think that is even more bizzare. Enf should kill doc (fragile backup class), Soldier should kill Enf (no hightech weapons - no range).

End line:

72% reflect is a joke and a gigantic slap in the face of all soldiers as their own "unique" tool gets used against em by fragile doctors and other classes.

So by that logic. a doc should never pvp? Personally, I think any class should have a decent chance to kill another class. I dont know how to blaance all that out though.

[Turin]

Originally posted by Dasin
letah i think youre confused in thinking that funcom intended docs to be better in pvp than soldiers hell the best even. every class has a role nts were described as being competant in pvp but not the best (by the developers). lol you think docs are meant to be the best.. get real

something has to be done and i think it will, but when it does, dont act like its unexpected

Im sorry, the class descriptions are out dated and you cannot go by them. As it is now, FC intends EVERYONE to be a combat class. They have sttated there is no other way to lvl, or will be. Tradeskills wont help yuou. You have to kill to lvl. Hence, all class's are now combat class's. Im sorry we docs own you. For what its worth, last night, I sat with an Omni Adv last night dueling. we both sat and dueld for prolly... 5 minutes, before calling it quits because we couldnt kill each other ( also, i agreed not to init debuff him )

[Turin]

Originally posted by Dasin
why does everyone keep saying nerf, when traders got it everyone called it a fix?

i dont care how good you are at combat i just want things made fair and at the moment it isnt, read me previous post and ul see why

p.s funcom should just make it clear where soldiers stand in pvp are they meant to be the best or compentant like nts?

They call it a fixc cause the dot was broke ( and it WAS broke, anyone who denies that doesnt know anything about game mechanics )

And any trader that tries and tell me "its been broke so long, its nog a bug anymore" can go jump in a lake. The dot was BROKE. it gave trhem half the dmg, and just refreshed over and over. This goes AGAINST the entire IDEA of a trader. You cast a buff, you pay the price. I dont agree that you should not be able to cast said heal until dot wears off, the dot should just stakc and let you cast as much as you want. Cause as it was, you were paying like... oh..... 5% of the cost you were supposed to be paying.

[_______________Sjoko]

Originally posted by Alynie
This isn't true. When the first 'solution' was released from Funcom for the team heal fix, they were going to place a 15 second lock on the team heal and introduce new heals that we could cast during the 15 second lock. Instead, in their second 'solution' they changed it to the current state where we can cast a different QL team heal, stack our DoT, and thus make the heal completely useless. Funcom hasn't responded to any of our requests to make the team heal viable again for PvM.
Well, I was factoring some real world factors like lag, time to press the button, etc. Also, the attack time for the divest is 4.49s. Even with a 1k+ nanoinit like me, it still takes more than a second to cast the divest. It may seem like instacast, but it's not.
Just imagine someone who has the ability to steal your skills, nano, life then use it against you. That's one scary person. Imagine someone who can completely heal themselves of all damage in an instant, slow down your actions, poison you and carry a gun. That's one scary person. The manuals are only to give newbies some idea what to expect when they chose a profession and they are rather outdated now.

Well seemingly or not seemingly, my trader can stop, cast and run. But about trader heals, I didn't know they changed that. I removed my heals as my trader only has 2900 hp, and one heal from the best team heal takes away 50% of the hp. And about not getting a new line of team heals... heh no wonder why some traders are pissed. I don't heal at all with my trader (team heals that is) no use. Anyway I don't see why the trader heal should give away so much of his life when other healing profs, don't loose anything.

And the last part, describing a doc, still shouldn't be too much problem if you managd to land a divest and plunder first. I managed to do that on fryli once with my alt. But she also managed to do rapid palsy on me. It was fun tho (100ish trader) vs. 190ish doc (at the time), I didn't stand a chance but it was funny to land and hopefully annoy someone that was there

And for the rest of the thread, I'll let you slip with what you said, for this time :P (jk, nothing to be said about your last part, really)

[________Billy Talent]

Debuffs = 100 percent effective
Heals = 100 percent effective
DMG = not 100 percent effective


What is wrong with this picture?

[________Drugz B. Bad]

Originally posted by Vegan
What is wrong with this picture?

What picture?

[Letah]

Originally posted by Vegan
Debuffs = 100 percent effective
Heals = 100 percent effective
DMG = not 100 percent effective


What is wrong with this picture?

TMS = 100 percent effective
Nullity = 100 percent effective
RRFE = 100 percent effective

Must I continue?

We cannot let that happen, its a downward spiral of halving. After heals people would cry about one of those above etc.

Like I said, 50% heals wouldnt even HURT doctors, only the professions whom people dont even complain about when they heal..

[________Drugz B. Bad]

I agree Letah. My main problem with docs, as posted when I started this thread was 72% reflect. That's taken care of now. Not the best solution, but it works