Review of the Council of Truth.

[Astera]

So, hypothetically speaking, should an appropriately high-ranking individual come forward to negotiate with the clans, whom should they speak to? If the answer is each individual clan, you should really re-examine the offer that Savoy made to establish a framework for discussion, because that would really save a lot of time and effort.

I truly believe Savoy has little grasp on what she says most of the time (in light of her most recent statements) so she is not anyone i'm willing to negotiate with. To find your answer, look at history (as you are fond of) and tell us how the clans that weren't part of the CoT followed the hot-air Tir Accord. Look at the Amnesty of 29475 and how many clanners took that bait. So to answer your question, yes, you will have to go to each clan hunting for your belittle-them-into-submission brand of peace.

If you, Kithrak or Savoy would like to negotiate with The Black Company, we will be on top of the Fair Trade building in Tir later this evening with a negotiation coordinator at hand.

[Marisha]

Please be so kind and remind me which part was personal attack.

First sentence, 57th post. I haven’t called anyone a terrorist in this discussion, other than the Dust Brigade. I don’t believe you see the Dust Brigade as part of “us.” By claiming that I have called the clans terrorists in this discussion, you attack myself, rather than my assertion that the reformed CoT is ineffectual.

To find your answer, look at history (as you are fond of) and tell us how the clans that weren't part of the CoT followed the hot-air Tir Accord.

Astera, you know they didn’t follow the Accord. As a result, they was scattered hostilities for four years against rouge clans, and Council lead curtailment of military activities against civilian and corporate targets perpetrated by clan separatists. There was also a military withdraw from clan held territories, and four years of peace between OT and the CoT after a ten year civil war. Seems like a win for clan self-government.

As for negotiations, I don’t know how many took place during this time. Convincing rogue clans to comply with the Tir Accord wasn’t Omni-Tek’s job. It was the job of the CoT. I’d ask Radiman how many there were.

Look at the Amnesty of 29475 and how many clanners took that bait.

Unfortunately, I don’t have any numbers, though I do remember meeting a number of clanners visiting Omni-One, and I remember many people on both sides being unhappy about the restrictions on travel once the Amnesty ended. I especially felt for the families that were separated once again. You might say “yes, but why would anyone want to visit Omni-Land,” but in the final analysis, we all lost a small bit of personal freedom when the Amnesty ended

If you, Kithrak or Savoy would like to negotiate with The Black Company, we will be on top of the Fair Trade building in Tir later this evening with a negotiation coordinator at hand.

How about a neutral location instead? I hear Newland is quite lovely this time of year, and Neuters has a full bar, while I don’t believe the roof of the Fair Trade does.

If one on one meetings is what it takes to move us out of the cycle of destruction, so be it. I’m willing to negotiate on good faith terms. Are you?

[Astera]

Astera, you know they didn’t follow the Accord. As a result, they was scattered hostilities for four years against rouge clans, and Council lead curtailment of military activities against civilian and corporate targets perpetrated by clan separatists. There was also a military withdraw from clan held territories, and four years of peace between OT and the CoT after a ten year civil war. Seems like a win for clan self-government.

and...the Tir Accord was little more than hot air to those that didn't sign it, regardless of the "peace" (as you describe it) that followed.

Unfortunately, I don’t have any numbers, though I do remember meeting a number of clanners visiting Omni-One, and I remember many people on both sides being unhappy about the restrictions on travel once the Amnesty ended. I especially felt for the families that were separated once again. You might say “yes, but why would anyone want to visit Omni-Land,” but in the final analysis, we all lost a small bit of personal freedom when the Amnesty ended.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but don't try to make mine look wrong for personal gain. Fact is, there are a lot of clans that likely feel the same way.

How about a neutral location instead? I hear Newland is quite lovely this time of year, and Neuters has a full bar, while I don’t believe the roof of the Fair Trade does. If one on one meetings is what it takes to move us out of the cycle of destruction, so be it. I’m willing to negotiate on good faith terms. Are you?

My bottles of water are portable and Fair Trade provides a lovely view of the Council of Truth building. Meet me there, you will walk away with your negotiations started.

[Marisha]

and...the Tir Accord was little more than hot air to those that didn't sign it, regardless of the "peace" (as you describe it) that followed.

Peace for the member clans of the Council. Again, it wasn’t our place to ensure that the clans took the opportunities they had available to them. But I’m sure the clans didn’t want us to hold their hands while they crossed the street.

Again, I’d ask Radiman why the benefits the Tir Accords brought to the member clans weren’t extended to every clan.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but don't try to make mine look wrong for personal gain. Fact is, there are a lot of clans that likely feel the same way.

Fair enough. But can you honestly say we all didn’t loose any freedom, no matter how small, when the amnesty ended?

If you don’t like your opinions looking bad, support your arguments and repudiate mine.

My bottles of water are portable and Fair Trade provides a lovely view of the Council of Truth building. Meet me there, you will walk away with your negotiations started.

I’m game. Were going to have to discuss the location of the Fair Trade building. I didn’t do much shopping when I took my summer vacation in Tir. Leave a message with my social secretary and we’ll arrange a time that works for both of our delegations.

[Astera]

Peace for the member clans of the Council. Again, it wasn’t our place to ensure that the clans took the opportunities they had available to them. But I’m sure the clans didn’t want us to hold their hands while they crossed the street.

Again, I’d ask Radiman why the benefits the Tir Accords brought to the member clans weren’t extended to every clan.

Because not everyone had an agenda. We're still fighting and will not "give in" and "settle". ...well, I won't at least. More and more i'm hearing about the clans losing their way and I laugh. The Company hasn't lost the reasons this war is going on.

Fair enough. But can you honestly say we all didn’t loose any freedom, no matter how small, when the amnesty ended?

*sigh* Well, it is not my place to tell every clan what they can and cannot do, but my feelings weren't hurt very much when it was ended. It was BS anyway and you know it. So, don't give me that "personal freedom" bleeding heart speech. I think most of us know better. See...the information is there, but few too many people care to look for it. Just before the Amnesty, Omni Tek was committing acts comparable to genocide on the Clans ((paraphrasing from Prophet again)). Then the Amnesty was offered... THREE YEARS AGO. Murder them and then offer them peace...

If you don’t like your opinions looking bad, support your arguments and repudiate mine.

Oh my... I don't care if anyone likes or dislikes them. I say that because you don't answer questions, you shift attention.

I’m game. Were going to have to discuss the location of the Fair Trade building. I didn’t do much shopping when I took my summer vacation in Tir. Leave a message with my social secretary and we’ll arrange a time that works for both of our delegations.

Easy enough. Center of the Tir. North of the incredibly huge gazebo. EDIT: Oh, just you and me. No one else.

[Marisha]

Because not everyone had an agenda.

Then why were they fighting? Only the most extreme nihilist fights without reasons.

We're still fighting and will not "give in" and "settle". ...well, I won't at least.

Disturbing words from someone who is inviting me to the table. I asked earlier if you would enter into this with good faith. Again, I’m willing. Are you?

Murder them and then offer them peace...

The Amnesty did not exist in a vacuum. Most military conflicts end like this, with fighting and resistance prior to the point where weapons are put down by both sides. You suggest that the Accords were little more than hot air to those separatist clans who didn’t accept them. They were blinded by their agendas and unable to realize that the war was over. They kept fighting, we continued to defend ourselves, and they did poorly, because of an imbalance of force and a lack of support from the old Council.

Again, it wasn’t our place to make them accept membership in the old Council. Rather than crush them completely, we offered the separatists a way out of the conflict that didn’t involve being placed two meters underground. And were the villains.

Oh my... I don't care if anyone likes or dislikes them. I say that because you don't answer questions, you shift attention.

First you say you don’t want me to make your opinions look wrong, then you say you don’t care if people like your opinions or not. As for questions, which questions are these? I see a lot of statements, and few questions coming from you, though I admit I may have missed them. Refresh my memory.

EDIT: Oh, just you and me. No one else.

Unacceptable. The Honored Guard would not allow me to enter into a meeting inside Tir under that condition. Accept a delegation, and provide a beacon warp. Alternately, neutral location, full bar. Diplomacy is all about making compromises.

[joshuacrime]

...and may the best lawyer win.

See, that's the problem with "negotiations" in the diplomatic vein. For the first, the agreements are seldom binding in reality. Any one or the other, with the proper space lawyer, can say that the terms of the treaty aren't being met (the Tir Accord being a perfect example) and declare it null and void. OT had a very hardcore group of Clan haters in the internal security and law enforcement departments, they just make up from whole cloth some story about how the Council of Tir was a front for the Dust Brigade, and then chased off the members of the Council, killed the ones they found and sent the leader of the Council into hiding. So, in that sense, having diplomatic negotiations is severely limited, and it's level of success depends on the current climate between the two negotiating parties.

Diplomacy is only a means to and end, and there are many other things that need to take place in order for a real peace to happen. We've all talked about them before. The problem I have with the whole thing is OT's obdurate insistence of having Clan form into an organization that mirrors theirs, or we are not taken seriously. This, of course, is little more than an excuse to throw out when they really don't want peace in the first place. By doing what they want, Clan ceases to become Clan, and becomes little more than a Confederation and a corporation, neither of which we want. Once the internal workings of the CoT are ironed out, it's member organizations are declared and the non-compliant identified, then this will be what OT gets to negotiate with for peace. We aren't going to turn into a little YOU to satisfy big YOU. Get over that one right now, please.

As for the rest, we will beat each other with more garbage about who did what when, where and why forever. But, in truth, the fighting has not stopped yet. When it does, then I will consider OT being serious about peace. They need to corral their armed forces and stop sending forays of their military and police forces into Clan territories. They need to stand down, and the sooner they do, the more seriously we take them. The Clan militias already ARE stood down. The Sentinels don't attack anyone, and they are the most militant Clan organization there is. Galahad and his bunch don't go on offensive missions whatsoever on Rubi-Ka. We don't have a huge military with tons of Slayerdroids and Juggernauts, air vehicles, orbital bombardment platforms, etc like you do. We are a huge guerilla force, and we have enough technology to keep you all at bay. But if you want true peace everywhere, then you must be the leader and show Clan that you mean you WANT peace. Have OT unilateraly declare a cease fire against all Clan citizens, and allow us into your cities. Put your money where your mouth is.

Until then, I don't want to hear one peep out of OT and how much they are for peace. They haven't shown me a nickel. They haven't shown anyone that THEY are willing to compromise to attain it. They haven't shown us that they can make Clan feel safe and not fear retribution once we let our guard down. Once that happens, yes, I will be glad to hear what you all have to say. But I'm not seeing it. Oh, and maybe we can form a War Crimes Tribunal as well. We could have a lot of fun with that, couldn't we? Nah, OT would never agree to it. Half of their current standing army would be in prison off-planet for the rest of their natural lives.

[Kithraks]

Pot, Kettle, Black, Clan terrorists attacks on Omni-1.

[Astera]

Then why were they fighting? Only the most extreme nihilist fights without reasons.

Let me clear this up for you.
Reason to fight - Freedom (for example)
Agenda to fight - Freedom and PERSONAL gain. (monetary/glory for example)

The nihilist part was lagniappe information and holds no bearing on anything.

Disturbing words from someone who is inviting me to the table. I asked earlier if you would enter into this with good faith. Again, I’m willing. Are you?

I'm not inviting you to anything but a meet. There will be little speak of the Clans (as I do not speak for them) but you WILL have your answers regarding The Black Company. So forgive me if it will be a little more difficult than Omni says: Give up. Clanner says: Okay.

The Amnesty did not exist in a vacuum. Most military conflicts end like this, with fighting and resistance prior to the point where weapons are put down by both sides. You suggest that the Accords were little more than hot air to those separatist clans who didn’t accept them. They were blinded by their agendas and unable to realize that the war was over. They kept fighting, we continued to defend ourselves, and they did poorly, because of an imbalance of force and a lack of support from the old Council.

Again, it wasn’t our place to make them accept membership in the old Council. Rather than crush them completely, we offered the separatists a way out of the conflict that didn’t involve being placed two meters underground. And were the villains


First you say you don’t want me to make your opinions look wrong, then you say you don’t care if people like your opinions or not. As for questions, which questions are these? I see a lot of statements, and few questions coming from you, though I admit I may have missed them. Refresh my memory.

This could go back and forth, on and on...but this should answer the three statements adequately. I give you fact, you give me twisted words and a shifted focus. Peace through cover-up. Defending themselves? Want to read up some more before you say things like this?

Unacceptable. The Honored Guard would not allow me to enter into a meeting inside Tir under that condition. Accept a delegation, and provide a beacon warp. Alternately, neutral location, full bar. Diplomacy is all about making compromises.

I'm not going to ask again and I'm not going to be diplomatic. You either do this or you don't. This meet should not be tied up in your guilds bureaucracy. Any reply other than "okay, we'll meet" and you'll never get another chance.

[steelyglint]

the question i ponder most as i lay down my trusty bbi's and gaze at the rubi-ka night sky in the woods or plains, is what is the omni end goal for peace, is it participation, in a free and democratic government where the citizens of the planet have the ultimate say in who's in charge, i know that is the clans goal, or is purely a front, to have us clanners lay down our arms, then, suddenly arrest the various clan leaders so they can be taken away and shot as corporate traitors under corporate law, and the rank and file milita members rounded up and sent by omni-reform for re-education. Once re-educated to be good little workers, would we be then shipped back to work at gun point in unsafe mines and construction sites. to expend our lives for omni-tek profit and appeasing the shareholders.

You may think i am paronoid or whatever u will, but i am sure this has crossed the minds of the omni board of directors, and if this is the case, then they will only condemm themselves to relighting an old bushfire that they extinguished. A government that enforces labor will always have discontent citizens, and that is how this whole situation began, continues and will b fated to repeat itself, not only here on rubi-ka, but on any other omni held planet where the omni employ the same methods. push workers to far and they will revolt, this is what Omni-tek did, and this is the consequences of Omni-tek's actions. As far as i am concerned it is up to the omni to make the olive branch and see if the conditions are suitable for us to negotiate, us the workers.

If the omni were serious about peace and wanted to b held in good stead within the galactic community, they could use rubi-ka as a template for peace on other planets where they are in civil war, but unfortunatly i do not see the omni being this enlightened. This outcome could of been achieved with the first council of truth if omni-tek had been truly willing. If anything needs to be reformed, it's omni-tek not the cot

So why not send a delegation to cot, if u are serious about peace, why not take our council as it is and negotiate with them and show the average rank and file citizen that the omni truly want peace. Hell, to make sure, why not have some icc reps there to ensure fair, honest and truthful dialouge.

Because untill something like this happen's, i cant take omni words at face value, i cant believe the corporate propaganda. How can workers trust u?. Pretty simple, we cant. And untill it can be shown that the omni are willing, my bbi's will be pointed at anything thats not clan

steelyglint
Unit commander
The Black Company

[Naefen]

I am disconserned by the clanners disability to believe in Omni Tek learning from its mistakes. There are no corporation employee to my knowledge who believes Omni Tek treated those miners properly. Today, the situation have changed dramatically. There are no slaves or even remotely slave labour working our mines. Omni Tek is representing laws witch further peace and personal gain through mutual understanding and flourishing trade between its employees. The only difference between those employees and the rest of the inhabitants on Rubi Ka is those inhabitants unwillingness to abide by those laws. Laws who in no way hold peaceful citizens down in any way.

I believe the CoT may be clanners only hope in the end. But for now they struggle to much as it is with the fact that to many clans work theyre own agenda. Rougue clans- as many call them. Im sure a delegation sent to CoT from Omni Tek sadly wouldnt do any effective work at all.

So I guess you all need to continue pointing your guns at anything thats not clan. Omni-Tek employees, Neutrals, Yuttos and every other race witch can crawl or walk. Because unless they join your cause for "freedom", they must be the devil right?

[Dabblez]

the question i ponder most as i lay down my trusty bbi's and gaze at the rubi-ka night sky in the woods or plains, is what is the omni end goal for peace, is it participation, in a free and democratic government where the citizens of the planet have the ultimate say in who's in charge, i know that is the clans goal,

No, you cannot Claim that a free and democratic government is goal of the Clans. Each Clan has different goals, each Clan is distinctive. Terra Firma is the ONLY legacy Clan dedicated to creating a democratic government Rubi-Ka. The rest are more concerned with making a buck (Vanguard), removing all humans from the planet (Eco Warriors), living out feudal fantasies (The Knights), chaos & mayhem (The Dust Brigade) and generally making Omni-Tek's life difficult (most of the others). Where did this rumour start that all the Clans want a democratic government?

or is purely a front, to have us clanners lay down our arms, then, suddenly arrest the various clan leaders so they can be taken away and shot as corporate traitors under corporate law, and the rank and file milita members rounded up and sent by omni-reform for re-education. Once re-educated to be good little workers, would we be then shipped back to work at gun point in unsafe mines and construction sites. to expend our lives for omni-tek profit and appeasing the shareholders.

Oh please, we've been running our mines for centuries without forced clan labour. Can't you just accept the simple, obvious face.Above and beyond the moral and humantiatian cost of war, peace is good for business and Omni-Tek is a business.

So why not send a delegation to cot, if u are serious about peace, why not take our council as it is and negotiate with them and show the average rank and file citizen that the omni truly want peace. Hell, to make sure, why not have some icc reps there to ensure fair, honest and truthful dialouge.

Maybe because Omni delegates have been asking for an audience with the CoT for months and its the CoT that has refused to listen to us?

Savoy

[joshuacrime]

I don't think all Clan organizations want a democratic government. But, then again, the majority of the voting block does want one, or at least a semblance of one. Your examples are going to the core of why I don't listen to Omni evangelists any longer. Once again, The Dust Brigade is labeled as a "Clan organization". Bollocks to that statement, and every time some Omni lapdog utters it, I'm going to lambast them in my own unique fashion. Stop it, already. Give it a bloody rest. The Dust Brigade are NOT Clan, never have been, never were, and certainly were not ever supported by a Clan organization. You have NO proof of it, you are just making it up out of whole cloth. Galahad's Merry Lads don't DO anything. Neither do the Sentinels. Who cares if they aren't involved with the Council (oh, wait, they kinda are, aren't they). And this is how most of the arguments against Clan has become. Just make it up. Twist facts, declare the opposition "non-conforming", call us terrorists and anything else you might use to demonize us in the current day. Do anything but MAKE SOME SENSE.

The day that Omni's can stand across from me and declare themselves to be the "beneficial" party is the day that I start wearing fur hats and dance jigs. Meaning, it isn't going to happen. Omni is still the same Omni that existed when they first landed on planet, except they have had some of their wings clipped because they were bad. In what sense have your policies changed? Give me examples, please. I will give you examples of how you are the same corporation you have always been. I will reference the news articles, the reports and the historical content if I need to, but most of us already know the stories as written. It's just that, apparently, some of you have amnesia. If the ailment is as bad as what is indicated by these humorous commentaries, I'm surprised you can find your own apartments.

As to POT, KETTLE, BLACK, CLAN TERRORISTS in OMNI-1, I have a few indications that the "administrator" is about as sensible as a screen door in a submarine. Firstly, we haven't declared a cease fire of any type whatsoever. We are still, for all intents and purposes, at war. Terrorism is, by the standard definition, the use of force against a defenseless population to influence a government or ruling body to change it's policies with respect to the offending organization, government or whatever type of body it represents. Meaning, they blow up stuff, shoot women and children in the streets, sabotage key installations with the intent of causing massive social distruption, instill fear into the attacked populace, and finally, use the press to further their agenda of "terrorizing" it's enemies.

So far, "Administrator", you have pointed to NOTHING that smacks of terrorism here whatsoever. The use of the word "terrorist" by an Omni thug in reference to Clan soldiers attacking an Omni installation of any kind during wartime is about as correct as would be a traffic cop handing out speeding tickets at a raceway. Give it a rest, "Administrator". Your statment is so banal and trite that I have to go and wash my hands after dealing with it, because it stinks. When Omni declares a cease fire, I'll start agreeing with you about Clanners who make forays into Omni-1 (and Omni personnel making forays into Clan territory while doing the EXACT same thing you accuse Clan of doing, minus the snazzy press reports from your sewage plant press) and I will call them "terrorists" when they do something that terroists do. Until then, "Administrator", learn how to use the proper definitions for the thing you wish to describe. Go buy a dictionary.

[Naefen]

Just for the fun of it.
Mr.Ross paying for the Neutrals guards. Was that beneficial and a sign of Omni Tek`s good will?

[Dabblez]

Once again, The Dust Brigade is labeled as a "Clan organization". Bollocks to that statement, and every time some Omni lapdog utters it, I'm going to lambast them in my own unique fashion. Stop it, already. Give it a bloody rest. The Dust Brigade are NOT Clan, never have been, never were, and certainly were not ever supported by a Clan organization. You have NO proof of it, you are just making it up out of whole cloth.

So I suppose THIS is just an elaborate Omni deception?

Savoy

[Xhairs]

The odds of the Dust Brigade being Clan or a Clan construct are pretty slim. I´m not saying it is impossible, but i´m giving it a snowballs chance in an incineratorfurnace. It may, and i repeat may have started out as a Clan, but long since went outside that and now just practises terrorism against any targets they can find.

How ever, if we are not to call some Clans terrorists because it is a war, then you should not call us opressors for the same reason.

Also, if Omni-Tek today is as bad as you make it out to be, then why are there millions working for it on Rubi-Ka alone? There are Clan aplication forms available just about everywhere, and there is absolutely nothing Omni-Tek can do about it if you chose to switch side. But still we have ample amounts of workers for our mins, refinerys, construction yards and what not. If Omni-Tek was as bad as you put it, then why are those people still working for Omni-tek, instead of joining the Clans?

[Naefen]

Id rather say most likely started out as a clan. Cant say I see much difference between the Dust Brigade and some existing clans either. And note I say some, not all. I dont many at all. But certainly some.

My theori, and these are all speculations, is that the Dusters on one point or another were let down by the rest of the clans and figured they were as much theyre enemies as the ones they already have. They started out as a extremist clan but then went on to be extreme extremists if you all understand what I mean.
Then they contacted someone with a lot of credits on theyre hand who also had interests in the wiping away all others on Rubi Ka. Im sure we can all think of some....... /theories end/

The millions working for Omni Tek on Rubi Ka by theyre own will should be evidence enough that Omni Tek treats theyre employees respectfully and well.
Yet admitting this would not fall well in the hands of many outside the corp who makes great amounts of credits on theyre own outside of it. To them, peace with Omni Tek surely cant be very apealing.

[Vixentrox]

I am disconserned by the clanners disability to believe in Omni Tek learning from its mistakes. There are no corporation employee to my knowledge who believes Omni Tek treated those miners properly.

Have not met Nevver I take it.....

[Marisha]

i know that is the clans goal, or is purely a front, to have us clanners lay down our arms, then, suddenly arrest the various clan leaders so they can be taken away and shot as corporate traitors under corporate law, and the rank and file milita members rounded up and sent by omni-reform for re-education.

Well, if you look at the most recent effort towards peace made by Omni-Tek, you’ll see that there weren’t any arrests. Yes, there was the Sabulum situation, but that city was within the Omni-Tek sphere of influence, per the Tir Accords. We even had the full support of Council. Things only went to hell with the Amnesty after the militants refused to follow the wishes of the Council, and the Council showed themselves to be ineffectual in policing their own.

There were searches, and if the operation hadn’t slid into trench warfare, there probably would have been arrests. However, this operation was part of our efforts against the Dust Brigade, which as many of my esteemed colleagues have pointed out, are not a Clan.

However, in keeping with the topic, is the reformed Council any more capable of ensuring that another Sabulum situation does not occur in the future?

[Vixentrox]

On behalf of the Council of Truth Clerical Staff (Atlantean Chamber), we would like to announce that Charissa "Maephina" Vein, President of Conflicted Singularity, has been chosen to join our ranks. Thank you to all who applied for the post. Congratulations Ms. Vein!